Hi Paul,

I certainly agree, any CMS application you could build with ADDT would most probably not be able to compete with existing applications like Joomla which offer many features out of the box.

In my opinion ADDT is mainly a toolbox for developers who prefer to create applications themselves rather than relying on 3rd party applications, what may also have quite some advantages -- one of the main advantages my own ADDT related work does benefit from, is having full control over what features my applications are supposed to provide and which features are dispensable in a certain context, and in many cases I could roll out a (certainly less feature rich, but then again notably "leaner") custom application in a fraction of the time I would have to spend on learning how e.g. Joomla works respectively how to adapt it to my personal needs, what´s pretty complicated to achieve.

While I have the utmost respect for what advanced CMS applications such as Joomla can do, from my own experience I have to say it´s not easy to understand either, unless you have a truly profound knowledge of how it works and where its limitations are.

One of the biggest limitations with *any* 3rd party "fully functioning, already completed entities" out there is :: I, the regular user who´s of course not involved in the development and decision process, will always remain in a state of dependance -- you don´t know what the next version will give you or not, as this is completely out of your control; you don´t know of the security-related errors the current version probably has, but you´ll find out once your site has been hacked by some nasty folks who found out how to exploit those security holes. OK, noone prevents you from turning your custom ADDT application into an insecure one -- but as it´s you who´s the developer and hence know what you did or not, you´ll be able to fix that yourself rather having to wait until the developers of whatever 3rd party application decide to release yet another version.

-------
ADDT is like an architect with no experience in masonry construction building a house brick by brick by hand, when next door a housing developer is building using prefabricated sections, mechanized labor, etc
-------

This reminds me of how Dreamweaver itself is getting evaluated by mainly designers -- DW as well doesn´t provide ready-made building blocks, as it´s also basically a toolbox for designers/developers who prefer to roll out custom designs, and producing a halfways "good" design yourself also takes time and - my experience - can at times be a frustrating experience as well.

I actually feel the same kind of frustration when trying to realize AJAX based stuff, so I do understand you pretty well -- but I´ve managed to come to terms with the fact that it´s *me* who regretfully will have to spend very much time on learning how those things work. But I´m sure I´ll sooner or later be able to get that, and once I got it, it will help making me an *independant* developer, and this is something which has sooo many advantages after all

Just some food for thought :-)

Cheers,
Günter Schenk
Adobe Community Expert, Dreamweaver

-----
Doesn't the GPL govern the distribution of code, and not its use?
-----

I don´t know, and I´m no lawyer (and I don´t really care :-)), but it´s just an example which shows that using *any* 3rd party CMS application out there that´s *free* and not developed by you, is not capable to guarantee anything you can rely on in, say 2 years from now.

However, your initial post´s "waste of time to attempt to build many of the applications" conclusion is definitely true, and I myself wouldn´t even try building a CMS application that´s supposed to compete with Joomla for the very same reason -- but bashing ADDT in particular because it would take you too long to a build a similarly feature-rich CMS is just not right IMO, as you could extend this very conclusion to any other multi purpose PHP application development framework (I´m not talking about specialized apps like Joomla) out there. Although it makes many database-management handling tasks a breeze to accomplish, ADDT is a tool for developers after all, and it never claimed to offer such "out of the box" applications.

To my mind it all depends on your personal requirements -- if e.g. Wordpress matches your particular needs, it´s indeed the right tool to use. But if you´re going to build a tailor-made Property Management system (including a tailor-made CMS, sales statistics modules etc etc...) like I did, I´m sure you´ll most likely come back to ADDT, because building *custom* solutions (and having full control over your work, what´s not essentially to be expected from any 3rd party solution, and what should be *the* essential criterion when building applications for customers) is the very strenght of this framework.

Here in Germany we have the saying "eierlegende wollmilchsau", which could be translated to "all-in-one device suitable for every purpose" -- there´s nothing like that when it comes to creating database driven web applications, and one premade application may be the ideal solution for a certain purpose, whereas it may be weak in other areas.

Cheers,
Günter Schenk
Adobe Community Expert, Dreamweaver

> "custom" database-driven web design is a whole different matter and, in my
> opinion, simply beyond the reach of the >self-employed independent
> designer...

Hi .. I'm a self-employed independent designer who has done custom
database-driven web design since 1996. :)

IMO, there is no substitute for getting your hands dirty by learning the
code. Extensions are great to a point, but they should never be a
substitute for knowing what you're doing. I have used them as time savers
.. but I learned some time back that where I depended on them either (a)
they might go away and I would be lost or (b) there would come a time where
I needed to do something that was beyond the extension and then I would be
sunk.

If you can write the code, then you can make it do anything.

JMO,


--
Nancy Gill
Adobe Community Expert
Author: Dreamweaver 8 e-book for the DMX Zone
Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Instant Troubleshooter (August, 2003)
Technical Editor: Dreamweaver CS3: The Missing Manual,
DMX 2004: The Complete Reference, DMX 2004: A Beginner's Guide
Mastering Macromedia Contribute
Technical Reviewer: Dynamic Dreamweaver MX/DMX: Advanced PHP Web Development

Hi Purple Edge,

-----
Joomla et al will get you MUCH further before you HAVE to learn the code than ADDT will get you
-----

Joomla et al are dedicated Content Management System applications, whereas ADDT is a multi purpose thing -- application frameworks which serve one special purpose can, on the long run, certainly be developed to allow an easier sort of "will get you MUCH further" access to the provided features, whereas this isn´t really possible for an "kill several birds with one stone" application framework like ADDT which allows developers to build all sorts of stuff and not just a CMS.

Just wanted to mention this IMO important difference, because I have the feeling that one part of the "dynamic web applications" users (not only here and not only related to ADDT in particular, one can detect this common notion all over the place) gets constantly caught in a trap that´s regretfully been set up by themselves -- by comparing different kinds of applications with each other and assuming that application a) will serve the same purpose as application b). It´s like trying to compare an apple (ADDT) with a banana (Joomla et al), having the opportunity to "eat" an apple (aka: downloading and trying ADDT before purchase), then decide on buying that apple and then wonder why it doesn´t taste like a banana :-)

Please let me get back to Paul´s initial "Disappointed with ADDT" concern for a while :: while I personally think it´s a legitimate concern to some extent, it should be said that *very fortunately* Adobe´s ADDT promotion (http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/addt/) does not state "hey, you can build advanced content management systems such as Joomla in to time and without further ado" -- it says "this Dreamweaver extension helps web developers create...content management systems", well, and this is what you could do with ADDT´s help. IMO the term "helps..create" does make a huge difference -- it *helps* developers to do stuff, not more not less, ´nuff said ;-)

------
And, when you have to "learn the code" I don't think that ADDT has any advantage over any other tool regarding the ease of learning
------

Very fortunately Adobe has brought ADDT to market as "Developer Toolbox" -- and that´s exactly what it is, a tool for developers who *will* get the most out of what they´re trying to achieve when trying to learn how things are done, but that does not mean one "has" to, as beginners can come very far without having to dig in the code at all.

----
and the support for Joomla et al is MUCH greater than the support for ADDT
----

CMS applications like Joomla have a very huge user base, all the more everyone wants and needs a CMS -- compared to that, developer oriented application frameworks such as ADDT will by nature just address a minority of users, and the user-to-user support you get for ADDT assumingly reflects this very difference.

-----
How many new releases/updates have there been for ADDT in the pats 15 months?
-----

and how many new releases/updates did Dreamweaver CS3 get in the same time ? None. Adobe´s release cycles for *any* of its applications are pretty long in general, and the fact that ADDT hasn´t been updated in the meanwhile, doesn´t mean anything, as this applies to many Adobe products.

Cheers,
Günter Schenk
Adobe Community Expert, Dreamweaver