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(Doug_Lhotka)

13 posts since
Jun 15, 2007

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Jun 22, 2007 4:14 PM

Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I've been battling the 'too dark' printing problems on my R1800 since the beta days of both LR and CS3. I've tried it from Windows and a MBP, both calibrated with a Huey, using the proper profile (from Epson), real Epson ink, real Epson paper, and the latest drivers.

I'd been adjusting the image brightness to compensate, but then everything looks washed out on the screen. Soft proofing does show significant darkening of the prints when I choose the output profile, so I have a suspicion that Epson has bad profiles. Draft mode is much lighter, so a colleague suggested that Epson designed the profiles to put down (i.e. use) more ink to boost revenue. I've played with the gamma settings in the driver with no impact.

I get similar results no matter what the source, so I've standardized on a printer target file from DIMA2004, for which I have both the file and a hard-copy of the correct print. LR is the darkest, CS3 is lighter, but still too dark. Letting the printer manage colors comes the closest, but it's still dark. The printer target simply doesn't match the printout from the DIMA show, but it does match the screen. That pretty much proves that it's a printer problem, not a screen problem (and before anyone asks, yes the brightness is turned down appropriately).

I finally broke down and called Epson support, and after not too much troubleshooting Epson told me it was a hardware problem and I had to send the printer in for service. Out of warranty of course. Given how quickly they arrived at that answer, I wonder if they have a bad batch of BIOS chips out there.

My next step is to try printing on a couple of high-end fine-art printers to completely confirm that it's a printer problem. I plan to print the DIMA target from several programs, including iPhoto and see what it looks like.

Anyone else have similar experiences with a known output file/printout combination?

(camaro)

4 posts since
Jun 13, 2006

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1. Jun 25, 2007 3:11 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Hi Doug, Ive had similar issues with my epson R340, dark photos, or hazy, I too called epson, not very good response, went through everything, including color profile, anyway the only way I can print is to use CS2 photoshop and my printer setup is: ICM is selected, Unselected color management and let photoshop decide on color management which I have set to Adobe RGB 1998 I dont know what to do either?
Good luck. This did help me their not perfect but I can only print for personal use, I forgot I also calibrated monitor manually (lousy) and was told to buy a monitor calibration software and tool, may just do it because I would like to sell my photos.
98cam

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(Anndra_Dubhacan)

46 posts since
Feb 21, 2007

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2. Jun 25, 2007 3:18 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Thanks Doug - I'm going to call Epson regarding dark prints from my R2400 as it's the only real problem I have.

However, using Ilford papers and profiles and printing from within Lightroom does provide really good results. Ilford smooth pearl being best of all to date.

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(kevinzdyb)

70 posts since
Feb 10, 2006

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3. Jun 25, 2007 3:50 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Doug,

I have been living with the same problem for some time now. I have never really resolved it because it seemed that the was no way to. I have been told that it was something I was doing wrong and for a long time believed this to be the case. I now have a very good understanding on how color management SHOULD work. I also simply brighten the monitor with sub par results.
I don't do much printing at home because of this. I was going to purchase the 2400 or the 3800 ($550 was not enough to spend) thinking that it was just related to my 1800. The verdict is still out on if the 3800 works but it seems as though there are a lot of unhappy 2400 users as well.
Please let me know how you end up with Epson as I have not totally given up. I would like to be able to print what I see on my screen!!!! I also have used Aperture and found that it was equally poor in both programs.
Thanks,
Kevin

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Jao vdL

4,264 posts since
Apr 4, 2008

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4. Jun 25, 2007 3:56 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I think Epson's color profiles are simply crap. On my Epson, colors only match using their profile and their paper using the lowest quality settings in the driver. Prints are way too dark when using high resolutions no matter whether I select color management in LR or in the driver. However with third-party papers and profiles prints look fine at high res. I just do not use it very often as it is way to expensive to have to clean the stupid clogged print head all the time and buy ink and paper.

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(Fred_Tedsen)

326 posts since
Aug 11, 2002

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5. Jun 25, 2007 7:42 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

>I think Epson's color profiles are simply crap.

For which printer? I've never had anything but excellent results with Epson papers and profiles on a 2400, and most reports I've seen for the 3800 up to 9800 have been very good.

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A.Dias

192 posts since
Feb 7, 2006

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6. Jun 25, 2007 11:32 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I no longer use Epson printers for that reason and a few others, but I suggest decreasing the amount of ink. I think there is a slider in the driver to do that. I do that with an HP 8750 and get an excellent match with HP profiles.

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(kevinzdyb)

70 posts since
Feb 10, 2006

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7. Jun 26, 2007 7:07 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

It is very easy to start bashing Epson. It will not solve anything.I think Epson makes an excellent printer. I simply want to be able to print what I see on the screen when I am done developing my digital print. This cannot be done with the 1800 or the 2400 without tweaking brightness. It may be a GREAT print but it currently will not match execatly to the screen!!! I realize Fred that you are happy with your 2400 and you should be--it is an EXCELLENT printer. There are many pro's that I have talked to on this subject and it still remains a problem.
If anyone has a solution to this please post a reply. Doug have you sent your printer in to Epson? Are you planning on doing this?

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(Fred_Tedsen)

326 posts since
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8. Jun 26, 2007 7:16 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

kevinzdyb, I didn't mean to minimize the fact that some people like you are having problems. I was merely responding to the silly statement regarding Epson's profiles. I do hope that you get your problem resolved.

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Jao vdL

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9. Jun 26, 2007 7:57 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

You're right that was a blanket statement and I cannot definitely say that it is true for all models. For the prosumer ones that I have used it is certainly true that the profiles are not very good (as compared to third-party paper/profile combos). I have never used the 1800 or the 2400, so they might have started providing better profiles since the last Epson I bought 5 years ago or so. I am not likely to ever buy Epson again having been burned twice on these machines - by design, not defect

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(kevinzdyb)

70 posts since
Feb 10, 2006

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10. Jun 26, 2007 8:09 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Fred, What you don't realize and many people don't realize is that we all have the same problem with "the print" . You are having the same problem but are not as critical of your results. Epson DOES need to work on this issue- it does exist.
Digital photography is in its infancy. There is not a printer on the market that will give you an EXACT match of what you view on your monitor. It does give you a really nice print but not a match......
Hopefully this will improve as digital photography gets better. We will look back years from now and wonder why we were satisfied with the results we were getting at the time. I know that I can look at my work 5 years ago and do the same.......

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Jao vdL

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11. Jun 26, 2007 8:30 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

>There is not a printer on the market that will give you an EXACT match of what you view on your monitor. It does give you a really nice print but not a match......

To be fair to printer makers, this is because it is fundamentally impossible to match colors on a screen, which is a additive color system, with a print, which is based on substractive color mixing. One well-known problem is the difference in dynamic range, which is much higher on a screen than on paper. Now add color to the picture! You can get close in appearance under controlled lighting, but getting it exactly the same is impossible.

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(P._I._Rose)

102 posts since
Mar 14, 2007

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12. Jun 26, 2007 1:46 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Doug said:
>That pretty much proves that it's a printer problem, not a screen problem (and before anyone asks, yes the brightness is turned down appropriately).

Before you put all the burden on Epson, please do tell us more than "the brightness is turned down appropriately". IOW, exactly what is the white-point luminance value to which you have adjusted your monitor?

If you don't know the luminance setting, or if you do not have a calibration device that can measure the luminance for you, then it's quite possible that your monitor is still...just...too...darned...bright. That's especially likely to be true if you have an LCD monitor.

>Soft proofing does show significant darkening of the prints when I choose the output profile, so I have a suspicion that Epson has bad profiles.

I don't know about the quality of Epson's profiles for the 1800--there could be a problem with them, but with my current printer --a 2200-- essentially every Epson profile I use (with PSCS2 "soft-proofing") displays a distinct brightening (not darkening) of the image. FWIW.

Phil

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LMCarter

52 posts since
Apr 8, 2008

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13. Jun 26, 2007 2:32 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Question is why are you talking about this junk on Photoshop forum? :D

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(kevinzdyb)

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Feb 10, 2006

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14. Jun 26, 2007 3:59 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I didn't think this part would actually have to be explained but...

if someone is using LR and getting dark prints then most likely they would explore the LR forums (with me so far?). Then while on the LR forum one can start to understand that other people have the same issue. With many people having the same issue that is how many problems get solved!!!!

Doug has a very valid post for a LR forum- one that many people have come to address on many different forums.

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Photo_op8

295 posts since
May 3, 2006

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15. Jun 26, 2007 6:18 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Kevin-I agree with your post. So far, MY problem has been with the R2400 and Lightroom. Dark prints!!! I've seen the same issues in other forums. It seems that all who experience this issue have been tweeking all possible driver, paper permutations with the one constant of purposely making the photo lighter in order to approximate the desired result. I'm not bashing Epson when I come to the conclusion that the solution is theirs. The problem is I've wasted much more than the $800 I paid for the printer trying to solve the problem, to no avail. I do hope Epson reads this forum........

Dave

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(Patrick_Niemeyer)

8 posts since
Apr 20, 2007

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16. Jun 27, 2007 7:26 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I have not been able to get a decent print out of my Epson 2200 since I started using it with the Mac. I have an Apple cinema display which is calibrated properly. I've tried everything. The prints are dark, muddy, and of poor quality. I used to get brilliant prints from it... I will research the hardware problem you mentioned. If you can point me to something I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
Pat

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(Tim_Andersen)

7 posts since
Aug 28, 2002

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17. Jun 27, 2007 5:50 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I have an Epson R2400 and always experience the same dark image problem. The only somewhat effective solution I found is to use soft proofing, check the Simulate White Paper checkbox, then adjust the brightness of the image globally. This of course is a hit and miss solution... but the only method I have come up with.

My LCD monitor is calibrated and adjusted to approximately 120 nits. The brightness/darkness difference between monitor and printed image is significant and I don't believe can be merely attributed to the basic difference inherent in the two mediums. Prior to the R2400 I used a Canon printer and this problem did not exist.

Tim Andersen

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(MGB_JAY)

3 posts since
Jun 4, 2007

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18. Jul 18, 2007 8:18 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I too have been experiencing difficulty getting my EPSON R1800 to print as it did while using CS2...

...ever since I "UPGRADED" to CS3, I have had nothing but very dark prints, somewhere in the area of 2 to possibly 3 times as dark as they should be - and as they USED TO with CS2.

I am running an AMD Dual Core +3800 with 4 gigs of ram - and the WIN XP PRO 64bit OS. ALL drivers are CURRENT - and Y E S I do mean ALL DRIVERS ARE CURRENT. Everything operates as it should, MY EPSON 4490 Photo Scanner, Samsung ML 2510 Laser printer, WACOM Intuos 3 Digital Tablet, Dual Samsung 226BW monitors (both running in analog mode for more color control) as well as a few other peripherals. So there are no other issues with my system, other than EVERY PRINT that comes off of my R1800 is severely dark, when run through CS3...

...However, when - for example - I take the exact same image that I printed in CS3, then cut and paste it into - for example, MS WORD, and proceed to print it from that application - it prints quite nicely...NO MORE DARKNESS from hell - just a well balanced and good looking print.

It seems to me that the problem exists in PSCS 3 - NOT in any software drivers that EPSON has produced. And I truly disagree with the above assertion that there is some kind of hardware issue with the printer...that just doesn't make any objective sense.

So, there are my $.02 worth of wisdom.

If any of you have any experience to either back up or debunk my observation, I - as wewll as many others here would love to hear from you.

Jay
mgbjay@yahoo.com

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(MGB_JAY)

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Jun 4, 2007

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19. Jul 18, 2007 8:20 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

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(Jeffrey_Quateman)

16 posts since
Apr 9, 2007

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20. Jul 19, 2007 3:50 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

My hypothesis is that some of the Epson printers have a hardware miscalibration. Mr. Andersen (in another post) suggested turning down the ink delivery ~12%, the "minus 12% solution".

This worked like a charm. I don't have to go to PS and soft proof (custom soft proof made by me) and globally lighten my photos any more!

Jeff

p.s. I have the same "dark print" issues in LR and PS.

iMac G5, Epson R2400

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(P._I._Rose)

102 posts since
Mar 14, 2007

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21. Jul 19, 2007 6:57 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Jeffrey,
I've started to experiment with a reduced ink-density ("color density") setting for my Epson 2200 prints and now I have to agree that a small reduction in that setting can change an "OK" print brightness to a nearly perfect match to my calibrated CRT.

My calibrated CRT is set at about 85 cd/m2, which is as low as I'd want to go with it, yet I frequently have to conclude that my prints are just somewhat darker than I expect based on my monitor (with an adequately bright viewing light). I've tried to be satisfied with that situation inasmuch as the discrepancy I saw never was as great as the "1 or 2 stops too dark" that so many people complain about. In fact my instances of seriously "too dark prints" have mainly been when the images already were verging towards "the dark side" on the screen. Since I did not want to make my monitor luminance any lower than it already was, I've just been trying to cope with that situation. Now I'm seeing that by reducing the "color density" by 10%, my print brightness is much closer to my soft proof-based expectations.

Phil

P.S. I forgot to add that (like Jeffrey) the above "fix" applies to PS as well as LR printing.

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(kevinzdyb)

70 posts since
Feb 10, 2006

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22. Jul 19, 2007 7:36 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

If I am reducing the color density or turning down the ink delivery than can I still let the printer manage the color? It seems as everyone advises to turn color management off....What is the best setting??

Kevin

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(DonRicklin)

4,544 posts since
Jan 30, 2007

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23. Jul 19, 2007 7:49 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Letting LR do the Color Management!

Don
Don Ricklin, MacBook 1.83Ghz Duo 2 Core running 10.4.10 & Win XP, Pentax *ist D
http://donricklin.blogspot.com/

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(MGB_JAY)

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24. Jul 19, 2007 8:22 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

OK - OK - OK...

...I spent an hour and a half on the phone with a tier 2 Tech Support guy at EPSON yesterday afternoon...

...There are a NEW set of drivers for the EPSON R1800 that were posted in the latter part of JUNE (a month ago) so I dnldd them and proceeded to uninstall the one that was currently installed on my system, including going through the registry and removed ALL references to the previous driver...

...This action being completed, I shut down the system and restarted, then installed the NEW DRIVERS, which is named EPSON 123000.exe.

I installed this new driver - HOWEVER - I did not install the "EASY PRINT" module, just to be able to check out one piece of the installation at a time.

That being done, I started PSCS3 - and opened one of the DARKEST prints that I had previously had no success printing without its being very dark as we have been talking about here.

I did NO additional adjustments - nor did I change ANY other setting at any point, and I sent the image to the printer and voila! - a perfect print.

Please be aware, that this is coming off of an EPSON R1800, with the appropriate paper profile installed.

In my opinion, this squelches all the "HARDWARE" related claims that there must be some "bad chips" floating around causing this problem, as well as all of the work arounds that I have read in this thread that are going to such extremes as making an effort to artificially reduce the "ink coverage" to remedy this issue, as well as taking the time to port the image to another application and then printing...

...I would suggest that at this time - going to the EPSON web-site, dwnld the appropriate driver for your printer, and try THAT!

It should be mentioned here that I am using WINXP PRO 64bit version. The driver that I am referring to was written specifically for VISTA/WINXP 64bit. If you are using another operating system, I have no idea what to offer at this point.

I hope that this offers some assistance to many of you all that are having this "Printing Too Dark" issue with your particular EPSON printer.

I have not read - however I am wondering if there is the same issue of printing too dark with any other brand of PRINTER, used in conjunction with PSCS3.

Thank You for allowing me to contribute my experience on this matter.

Jay Sigal

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A.Dias

192 posts since
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25. Jul 19, 2007 9:39 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I have long suggested that for Epsons and HPs and apparently nobody noticed. I'm glad somebody else also made that suggestion and you followed it.

Decreasing ink volume totally solves the darkness problem and... saves ink to boot.

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K.A.Smith

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Jun 27, 2007

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26. Jul 19, 2007 10:16 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I just went to the Epson website and found a similar driver for non-64bit Windows. Here are the particulars:
Printer Driver v6.5bAs (with Adobe Improved Printing Experience)
Windows Vista 32-bit Edition, Windows XP, Windows 2000
epson12299.exe - 12.3MB - posted on 06/21/07

I will try it out tonight and hope I have as good a result as you. Crossed fingers...

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(P._I._Rose)

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27. Jul 19, 2007 10:45 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

>In my opinion, this squelches all the "HARDWARE" related claims that there must be some "bad chips" floating around causing this problem, as well as all of the work arounds that I have read in this thread that are going to such extremes as making an effort to artificially reduce the "ink coverage" to remedy this issue,

I'm glad to read that you've evidently solved your particular (R1800) "dark print" problem by merely reinstalling drivers. However since this thread has previously expanded to discuss the issue of dark prints with other printer models as well as the R1800, I'd advise that people should avoid generalizing/squelching about a "correct" solution--or that there's something "artificial" about lightening prints by applying a reduced ink/color density setting in the driver's ink configuration. IMHO, there's nothing either "extreme" or "artificial" in this--assuming that all other aspects of one's setup are correct; and this includes reasonable monitor luminance setting, adequate viewing light intensity, updated drivers, cable connections, etc., etc. Of the variables mentioned, the first two are certainly as subjective as any deviation (esp. as little at 10-12%) one might make in the ink configuration setting.

Back in earlier times (dye-ink era of the late 20th century) ;-) Epson's printers were notorious (among advanced amateurs and professional users) for laying down an excessively high (default) amount of ink. I recall that one "work-around" commonly used to reduced the ink density was to "tell" the driver you had a different media (paper type) than the paper actually being used. I've tended to assume (cynically) that Epson had a method to their heavily-inked madness--i.e., the profit motive. I have little reason to think they (Epson) have learned to resist that temptation. After all --aside from the gleeful corporate bean counters--what's a mere +10% in ink consumption to the average customer; so why not try to get away with it?

Phil

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Guest

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28. Jul 20, 2007 1:32 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Doug and Kevin, I use several papers, none of them Epson, and I have not seen a problem with LR and CS3 matching prints or having "dark" prints out of LR.

Windows XP Home, calibration with Print Fix Pro monitor and printer, Epson 4800.

papers Red River Polar Matte, Andorian, Hahnemuhle William Turner and Photo Rag, Innova Photo Smooth...

I did not see you mention your setting.

Eric

(Doug_Lhotka)

13 posts since
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29. Jul 23, 2007 9:02 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Here's an update on my situation:

I've now tried printing the same images on other Epson printers. Other Epson's are dark, but not as bad. The soft-proof for both Epson's shows darker output than on the screen.

I've just gotten a hold of a high-end HP printer, and plan to try that this weekend.

Comments on other posts:

- No new drivers for the Mac are available.

- CS2 vs CS3 made no difference for me

- Manual tweaks: I've found that I have to change the settings for each print to make it come out properly. That's a 2x cost in materials and prints, and it's still hit or miss. The whole point of having a calibrated monitor and printer is to ensure that screen and printer match without printing!

- Monitor brightness: I've tried many different settings, and when the monitor is dark enough to match the prints (calibrated of course), I no longer get a 'white' white. FWIW I use a Huey Pro for calibration.

- Keep in mind that it was Epson themselves who told me it was a hardware problem.

I'm also about to give up trying to calibrate my MacBook Pro screen and get a seperate LCD monitor with finer controls. I can't spend $1500 on an EIZO or LaCie, but hope to find a good choice in the $500-700 range. Apple's are out - price/feature/quality ratio just isn't there. Suggestions welcome.

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(Mel_Lammers)

537 posts since
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30. Jul 23, 2007 9:24 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

CTL makes some good lcd monitors if mine is any guide.

http://tinyurl.com/22v995

Mel

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(Matteo_Del-Grosso)

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31. Jul 23, 2007 10:46 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Sorry, but can someone tell me where to find the ink densisty setting? I don't see any such setting in my printer driver running on Windows.

Thanks.

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(P._I._Rose)

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32. Jul 23, 2007 1:03 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

> The soft-proof for both Epson's shows darker output than on the >screen.

I'm not sure what you meant by that statement. Considering that soft-proof is just an image on the screen, how is it possible that "...the soft proof shows darker output than on the screen"? Do you mean that you get printed output that is darker than the soft proofed screen image?

>- Monitor brightness: I've tried many different settings, and when >the monitor is dark enough to match the prints (calibrated of >course), I no longer get a 'white' white. FWIW I use a Huey Pro for >calibration.

Can you give us an example of some actual values for white-point luminance that you've tried. Have you tried 100 cd/m2 or even less, for example?

BTW, it's important to note that you're not supposed to change your monitor so as to "match the prints"; instead the required procedure is: (1) to vary (e.g. lower) the monitor luminance; then (2) test that setting by re-editing your image to a desirable appearance (i.e., a good brightness), and then (3) reprint. Finally (4) compare print to screen image. If print now is a better match to the screen, you're heading in the right direction with monitor luminance setting. Even a monitor luminance as low as 85 cd/m2 ought to produce a screen (white point) level that looks reasonably "white" (assuming the monitor color temp is not way off). Keep in mind you need to give your eyes time to adjust to changes in screen brightness, and that the room lighting must not be overly bright.

Phil

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(P._I._Rose)

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33. Jul 23, 2007 1:07 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

>can someone tell me where to find the ink densisty setting? I don't see >any such setting in my printer driver running on Windows.

In my Mac printer driver for Epson 2200, it's actually called "Color density" (not Ink density), and it's within a section called "Ink Configuration".

Phil

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Michael D Sullivan

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34. Jul 23, 2007 8:00 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

The WinXP Epson 2200 driver has it in the same place as on the Mac.

No problems with dark prints here...

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(Vadim_Jitkov)

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35. Jul 23, 2007 11:32 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I am not sure I agree with the diagnosis being "Its Epson's fault". I have Epson CX7800. I never had problems with prints until I tried to print from Lightroom. If you think this is a printer issue, please explain the following situation:

1. I print image form Lightroom. As many of you would know print comes out way dark and very heavy on gray.

2. I take the same image and export it from Lightroom, put it on a memory card and print it directly from memory card. Result: almost perfect match to what I see on the screen in Lightroom. Almost perfect, because (I will be honest) my monitor is not calibrated with any external hardware.

3. Same exported image, insert it as Picture into of all programs MS Word (not much for an image printing program). Print page, result: same as printing directly from memory card!

Now someone will say, it is Export that did something... I tried to Import the image back to Lighroom, did not make any changes to it. Print from the Print module in LR. Result: Dark print, just like the first one.

To me this says: it IS Lightroom problem! My printer is just fine when it receives the job from other programs.

I would appreciate if someone can provide good rebuttal or an explanation.
BTW, I have just installed the "latest" driver for my printer and results of prints from Lightroom are just as bad as they were before.
Vadim

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(Doug_Lhotka)

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Jun 15, 2007

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36. Jul 24, 2007 8:35 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

And yet another update:

I purchased a new monitor (not a TN panel), and calibrated it - and it promptly turned green. I've now learned that they Huey Pro has a bad batch out there that have sensor problems, so all bets are off as to the root cause.

They're sending me a replacement, but I'm not sure I trust it. I'm looking to upgrade to either the Spyder2 or EyeOne, recalibrate, validate 120 cd/m2, and try again.

If anyone ever makes color management easy, I'll worship the keyboard they type on!

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(Matteo_Del-Grosso)

124 posts since
Apr 9, 2007

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37. Jul 24, 2007 10:43 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I'm using an Epson R1800 on a WinXP PC and I still cannot find any setting for ink- or color density in the latest driver version 6.51. What are you guys talking about. Could that be a setting that is only available on the Epson 2200?

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(Tim_Andersen)

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38. Jul 24, 2007 12:11 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Matteo and Others,

For the Epson R2400 the Color Density control is accessed by clicking the "Ink Config" button, which is located on the "Main" tab of the Epson printer Properties dialog box. This is the same dialog box in which you choose paper type, size, color management, etc.

I'm not sure if this applies to the Epson R1800.

Tim

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(P._I._Rose)

102 posts since
Mar 14, 2007

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39. Jul 24, 2007 2:00 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

> I'm looking to upgrade to either the Spyder2 or EyeOne, recalibrate, validate 120 cd/m2, and try again.

Consider 120 cd/m2 to be about the maximum luminance that's likely to afford you reasonable agreement between screen & print. If possible, you ought to consider trying a setting that's closer to 100 cd/m2 (IMHO, even lower than that). Of course you might not find such low monitor luminance values practical to use if the ambient room lighting cannot be dimmed significantly below typical "bright office" levels.

Phil

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(Matteo_Del-Grosso)

124 posts since
Apr 9, 2007

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40. Jul 25, 2007 9:40 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

There is no ink configuration setting on the R1800 driver!

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(Jim_td)

1 posts since
Aug 4, 2007

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41. Aug 4, 2007 6:46 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Epsom R2400 will not allow be to download the paper profiles. When I download the profiles I get two printers in the Printer controll box.
When I go to print, the profiles show but the printers starts to print it says Plain paper. Am I doing something wrong. Jim

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(Doug_Lhotka)

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Jun 15, 2007

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42. Aug 8, 2007 8:11 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Ok - here's the latest update. I recalibrated my laptop screen with a Sypder2Pro, and also calibrated the brand-new LCD panel I bought. The colors between the two match pretty well, and I was able to get 114 cd/m2 on the new panel using the RGB sliders, and 104 cd/m2 on the laptop using the brightness control. The laptop looks washed out, the panel looks fine.

That helped a lot, but didn't solve the problem completly - I was still getting a magenta cast, and somewhat dark prints. I borrowed a high-end HP printer and ran tests on it - no magenta, perfect prints - it just worked.

So I googled and discovered other reports of magenta casts, fixed by changing the cartridge. Bingo! Epson evidently had a bad batch. Along the way I found many reports of color changes occurring with new cartridges, so I suspect a general quality control problem.

The prints were still a bit too dark, but within the range that I can tweak. Using the printer profile from the Spyder2Pro software though, they're much much closer.

So much for a 'hardware problem' from Epson support. I suspect they just wanted to pass the buck.

I'm going to call and complain about the bad cartridge, ask for a replacement, as well as for the 2 packs of paper I've wasted trying to fix the problem.

So, moral of the story:

1) Skip the Pantone Huey and get a real calibrator.
2) Calibrate to 100-120 cd/m2 (using the RGB sliders, not the brightness/backlight control if you have them - better results)
3) If you get a color cast where there was none before (or have one that you can't fix) change the cartridge
4) Don't trust Epson support to know their product line
5) Consider alternative profiles - Epson's are not necessarily the best.
6) Laptop screens are OK, but not great for color calibration. Invest in a good panel (non-TN of course)

And, after all this, I probably wouldn't buy an Epson printer until I've heard from folks in this forum that that particular model works.

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GBsLaw

61 posts since
Jun 26, 2006

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43. Aug 13, 2007 8:04 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

My experience with good monitor-to-print match is in line with what's been discussed here. I calibrate my LCD panel with MonacoEZColor and am able to drop target luminance to about 100 cd/m^2. By and large, over the 12-18 months I've been using my R1800, I've obtained excellent results with both Epson paper (Enhanced Matte, Watercolor) and Ilford paper (Galerie Smooth Pearl). For Epson papers, I use Epson's premium profiles while the Ilford profile comes from their website.

One thing I haven't seen much mention of here, however, is soft proofing, which requires a trip into Photoshop or similar software with this feature. I've found that this step makes a big difference with some papers. With the aforementioned Ilford paper, soft proofing reveals a few minor shifts, such as increased blocking of some of the deepest shadows. By and large, nothing that requires much readjustment. With Epson Enhanced Matte, however, there is quite a large shift in the deepest shadows, with the shadow-most couple of stops being pulled much darker. This has the effect of making low-key images come out particularly dark and of making contrasty daylight shots (with subjects partly in sun, partly in shadow) become even more contrasty as the shadows darken. Here, soft proofing provides fairly good notice of what will happen when I print.

So, my recommendation to anyone experiencing troublesome tone or color shifts during printing is to attempt to soft proof using the same printer profile you're using to print. It's possible that the shifts are built into and predicted by the profile rather than being due to a hardware malfunction or a color management issue.

David

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tunney moriarty

83 posts since
Jul 27, 2006

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44. Aug 13, 2007 11:17 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I have a Epson 1280 printer which I have had for the past 7 years. I also had two custom profiles made up for the printer and Epson paper which arfe just as old. A little expensive to have done but well worth the cost in the long run. My monitor has a custom profile made by Gretagmacbeth "Eye-One Display" which reminds me every month that a new profile is required. I have to admit that I don't have a problem in color shifts or prints being dark...that's as long as I make up a new profile for my monitor every month. I am using Adobe CS3 and Lightroom 1.1.

Tunney

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(Des_Vaughan)

1 posts since
Sep 4, 2007

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45. Sep 4, 2007 6:01 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

Hi, My name is Des Vaughan. I similarily had to battle with my r1800
to get proper prints even after following all the expert guidance as to 'colorspace' profiles, and settings etc. in the epson printer driver.
Bringing up the brightness was also a washout and seems to break all the rules of 'color management'.
I use photoshop and finally have found my own procedure for printing
perfect and stunning prints. I Only use the best quality premium photo papers and genuine epsom inks.

My email ID is 'dezziev@hotmail.com. If you would like to contact me I can outline the procedure I use. There is nothing wrong with your
fabulous R1800.

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(Doug_Lhotka)

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Jun 15, 2007

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46. Sep 5, 2007 3:35 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

One last update:

After promising to send replacement ink, Epson failed to deliver. A month, and still not here.

I've also discovered that it's pretty much impossible to get a good grayscale print (without a color cast) on the R1800 - in retrospect, no surprise given the small number of inks (I suspect other printers with limited inks are similar).

Soft proofing indicates darker prints than on the calibrated screen and darker prints than either soft proofing with an HP profile, or actual HP profile prints. Epson evidently has some less than ideal profiles out there. Of course, they do lay down more ink, so maybe it's on purpose.

My net is still the same: I can match screen to print on HP printers (as well as other high-end brands), including soft-proofing, but the Epsons are always dark using Epson paper, ink, and profiles.

I'll get some of the Ilford paper and give that a try - it's in their best interest to have good prints, rather than sell ink.

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(Michael_Haas)

1 posts since
Mar 17, 2008

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47. Mar 17, 2008 2:07 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

I recently purchased an R2400, have an I Mac with Photoshop CS3. I have dark unrealistic images. Spent over an hour with support who to be honest were not very helpful. Tried different Epson paper. If anyone out their has successful results I would be interested in their setting on the print set up. I also changed the black ink from photo (too pale & even the nosel test was pale) to matt which filled the dark areas better but still not ideal. An old HP inkjet prints much better.

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J McWilliams

6,202 posts since
Oct 10, 2006

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48. Mar 17, 2008 7:22 AM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

When was the last time you profiled your monitor, and by what method?
What happens when you print a known good image directly from LR? What version of the OS and same for printer drivers?

Then I think we can help.

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(PATRICK_FORTE)

1 posts since
Mar 17, 2008

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49. Mar 17, 2008 5:18 PM

in response to: (Doug_Lhotka)

Re: Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

After many, many hours of trying to cure the very dark prints on my r2400, I accidently found a cure that worked for me. As odd as it may sound, when I checked the PhotoEnhance choice on the main r2400 Printer Preferences menu - IT WORKS!!??? Makes no sense to me but the prints now look very good - I will reduce the ink density about %10 for an additional experiment.

Has anyone else found this "cure" for the dark printing?

Cheers,

P

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Jun 22, 2007 4:14 PM

Epson now claims that bad hardware causes dark prints

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