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don't show Non match during filter

Feb 12, 2009 2:21 AM

Hi,
I have PS elements 7. One thing that I am sure someone else has complained about is the way non matching images are shown when I filter using tags. This absolutely gives me the irrates! I just wanted to add my vote to stop this behaviour.

Trevor.
 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 13, 2009 10:15 AM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Trevor:
    Can you be more specific in what your doing, what PSE7 does, and what you're expecting it to do?
    Bob
     
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    Feb 13, 2009 11:50 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Bob,

    Perhaps Trevor is referring to a feature of PSE 6 and 7 that annoys many of us.

    When a search matches a photo in a stack or version set, the entire stack or version set is included in the search results. If the search matches the top photo of the stack/set, it is shown collapsed. Otherwise, it is shown expanded, and photos in the stack/set not matching the search are shown with the red circle-slash.

    This behavior makes it impossible to search and select photos meeting a given criteria. For example, someone posted here the following use case: He edited his raw files and saved them in version sets as JPEGs. He wanted to move just the raw files offline. But theres no way to find and select just the raw files if you do Find > By Details > File Type Is Camera Raw, the JPEGs in the version sets will also be displayed (with a red circle-slash).

    As another example, someone wanted to find and select just those photos with 5 stars, including photos that were in stacks.

    In general, what many of us want is the ability to do a search and display exactly all those photos that match, regardless of whether they are in a version set or stack.

    Here are some past posts about this issue:

    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.59b6aff4
    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.59b5c2b7
    John Rolfe Ellis, "Exact match" #1, 30 Apr 2008 10:55 pm
    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b50d3e
    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b4b4e2
    http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.3c05cbe1
    http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?p=358500#post3585 00
     
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    Feb 23, 2009 3:56 AM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Aarrrgghhh!!!

    This is exactly what I've spent the last 24 hours trying to work out!
    I have about 50gb of raw files I need to archive to DVD, but no way of doing it unless I remove all the stacks and version sets I've built up over the last few years!

    Oh this is so frustrating! I expect more from a product supposedly aimed at photographers.

    I guess I have a choice; I either give up on archiving files or I abandon stacking and versioning. Either way a pretty poor situation. As I run out of disk space I guess it's the stacking and versioning that has to go... in which case I don't want to waste my time (any more of my time!) creating structure in the catalog.

    Anyone know of any decent inexpensive alternatives that aren't crippled in this way?
     
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    Feb 23, 2009 10:23 AM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    >Anyone know of any decent inexpensive alternatives that aren't crippled in this way?

    You might look at Lightroom and Microsoft's Expression Media, both of which cost about twice as much as PSE but seem to get better attention to detail and support.
     
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    Feb 23, 2009 3:34 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Thanks John.
    At present I'm strapped for cash (recently made redundant) so for now I'll have to soldier on with PSE.

    There's something very odd happening with stacks... it takes ages to unstack just two photos - around 12 seconds on my Athlon 64 3700+ processor at 2.21 GHz with 2GB ram (not state of the art, but not feeble either), but as I increase the number of stacks I try to undo, I get an exponential rise in the time taken.

    After some experimentation I have an approximate relationship - there seems to be a 6 second overhead per batch, then 5.75 seconds for every stack selected, but that total time is increased by about 1/4 of the number of stacks as a percentage - so for 4 stacks that's (6 + 4*5.75)*1.01 (the last term being an increment of 1%) giving 28 seconds, but for 400 stacks it's a lot more than 100 times as long - (6 + 400*5/75)*2 (the last term being 100% increment). It's quicker for me to sit at the computer and manually unstack in batches of up to 10 than it is to ask PSE to do the same number in one go by itself!

    It seems to me (I am a software developer working with relational databases) that PSE is being crippled by some very inefficient queries that do not scale - even the 12s for one stack of two photos seems way over the top but for the software to perform worse than a person sitting at the PC and doing it by hand is beyond belief!

    I have 7000 stacks to unstack... if I ask PSE to do them for me it looks like it will take around 9 days solid at 100% CPU! Or I could sit there and feed it 10 at a time every minute or so for 12 hours straight! :-{
     
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    Feb 23, 2009 6:05 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Interesting I see something similar. In my largest catalog of 12K items, there are only 167 stacks, but it takes 6-7 seconds to unstack one stack of two photos. Im guessing that Adobe never thought that such a use case was important to test for speed (it would pretty rare for someone to unstack 7000 stacks!). The underlying database, SQLite, has a good reputation for basic performance, but as you know, its how the application uses it.

    If you want to be adventurous, you could download SQLite Database Browser (free), make a backup copy of your database file (triple check that!), open it with the browser, and delete all the rows in the tables media_stack_sort_table and media_stack_to_media_table. Im pretty sure that would get rid of all the stacks without violating any application invariants in the database.
     
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    Feb 25, 2009 6:44 AM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Thanks again.

    I eventually finished the unstacking task. It got quicker as the number of stacks reduced - 400 batches took around an hour and a quarter when I had 7000 batches remaining, with 3000 left a batch of 400 took 26 minutes and the last 400 were through in under 90 seconds (meaning a succession of batches was dramatically quicker than doing it all in one hit!).

    I didn't know it was based on SQLite (about which I knew nothing) but I took a look at the database as you suggested. There seem to be a lot of key columns that are, well, not the way I'd have designed them! The evidence of my unstack timings suggests also that each unstacking operation involves looking through the entirety of the stack tables (or something along those lines, I don't have access to the code of course) - possibly joining multiple full-table scans with the selection of the batch of stacks to unstack, which would explain the exponential slow-down for larger batches and for larger total number of stacks in the catalog.

    Maybe I should offer to rewrite the data access layer for Adobe? ;-} I need a job right now.
     
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    Feb 25, 2009 7:37 AM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)
    Glad you got it finished. (I'd guess there's probably an index missing on one of the stack-related tables.)
     
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    Sep 30, 2009 7:44 PM   in reply to BobGager

    I am having the same basic problem with non matches showing up after I filter with a tag. In my case it makes no difference if there are stacks, version sets, or single images. In other words, I have non-matches showing up which are single non-edited photos, or stacks, or version sets, or a combination of all three. It doesn't happen all the time but enough times to be totally annoying.

     
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    Sep 30, 2009 7:46 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)

    Did you ever get a satisfactory solution to the problem or are we stuck with non matches during tag filtration?

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 3:39 PM   in reply to PVRalph

    There is no general solution to the problem.  PSE 8 doesn't fix it (it would have been very easy to have another Find-bar option, Hide Non-Match Results).

     

    You may be using stacks in a way that Adobe didn't intend, which exacerbates this problem:

     

    http://www.johnrellis.com/psedbtool/photoshopelements-6-7-faq.htm#_Key word_tags_versus

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 3:50 PM   in reply to John R. Ellis

    Thanks for the quick response. I had preveiously read the info in the link you sent me. It made some sense that if any photo inside a stack matches the search, all the photos in the stack are displayed in the search results, regardless of whether they match. But it can happen with or without stacks. I have tried deleting the tags and reentering them but that doesn't help either. Neither does repair or optimize the catalog.

    PVRalph

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 4:03 PM   in reply to PVRalph
    In other words, I have non-matches showing up which are single non-edited photos, or stacks, or version sets, or a combination of all three.

    Oh, sorry, I missed this previous post.

     

    Interesting -- I haven't heard of that before.   Can you attach a screenshot of the Organizer showing this?

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 4:21 PM   in reply to John R. Ellis

    The first images show single pics; the last one is a version set.

    InsertFileError021.jpg

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 5:38 PM   in reply to PVRalph

    Hmm.  Can you post a shot of the entire Organizer window?  I've never seen a non-match result other than in version sets or stacks.

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 5:49 PM   in reply to John R. Ellis

    Organizer page showing some matches and some non-matches:

    Organizer Page.jpg

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 6:01 PM   in reply to PVRalph

    Something wierd with your catalog, I think.

     

    The non-matching photos in the screen shot are all tagged with an Events tag.  What is its name?

     

    Also, when you click the Options drop-down in the Find bar, what are the options presented?

     
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    Oct 1, 2009 6:27 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)

    The tag is Events/Sub Category "New Years Eve", Tag 2005-2006. But the tag is reading "New Years Eve" though it is a sub-category under events.

     

    In the Options drop-down, I can toggle between Show and Hide results that do not match. While the photos change a bit, I get the same result - some that match and some that don't.

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 4:22 AM   in reply to PVRalph

    I'm having the same problem/frustration with PSE 8 -- when I search for, say, all 4-star pictures, it shows me many that are "non-match" but in versions or sets or stacks with the ones I want.  This is a significant bug.  It was not a problem in PSE 3, the previous version that I used.

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 9:23 AM   in reply to DB Sullivan

    The answer (provided by John Ellis):  Some people try to use

    stacks instead of keyword tags to group disparate photos of the

    same subject (e.g. ten different photos of a wedding), and the

    stacks end up having many "best" photos buried inside the stack,

    with the photos having different keyword tags.  Unfortunately,

    using stacks this way interacts

    <http://www.johnrellis.com/psedbtool/photoshop-elements-faq.htm#_

    Searches_are_showing#_Searches_are_showing>  badly with the

    Organizer's search - if any photo inside a stack matches the

    search, all the photos in the stack are displayed in the search

    results, regardless of whether they match.

     

    There is no general solution to the problem. PSE 8 does not fix

    it (it would have been very easy to have another Find-bar option,

    Hide Non-Match Results).

     

    PVRalph

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 1:05 PM   in reply to PVRalph

    PVRalph wrote:

     

    The answer (provided by John Ellis):  Some people try to use

    stacks instead of keyword tags to group disparate photos of the

    same subject (e.g. ten different photos of a wedding), and the

    stacks end up having many "best" photos buried inside the stack,

    with the photos having different keyword tags.  Unfortunately,

    using stacks this way interacts,


    The reason to convert version sets to stacks (IMO) is so that a tag will NOT automatically be applied to all photos in a stack, thereby preventing it from automatically being applied to all photos in a version set. Whenever I suggest converting version sets to stacks as a matter of course, I  am summarily greeted with a bunch of dogma ,about how "version sets are only for edited photos, and stacks are for similar photos". The Adobe party line.

     

    But, there is a command to, "Expand all Stacks, but none for "Expand all Version Sets. So here's my question, "if all the stacks are expanded, before the tag search, are the search results still including all members of the stacks"?

     

    Also, since there is a command to "Expand all Stacks", how can anything actually be "buried inside the stack"?

     

    And as a playful afterthought for our OP's enjoyment, "irate" is an adjective which can also be used as an adverb, "irately ". It is never a plural noun, even when spelled with two "R" s .

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 6:41 PM   in reply to captaincranky
    If all the stacks are expanded, before the tag search, are the search results still including all members of the stacks?

    Unfortunately, yes.

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 6:49 PM   in reply to captaincranky
    a tag will NOT automatically be applied to all photos in a stack, thereby preventing it from automatically being applied to all photos in a version set.

    Note that tags and version sets behave the same way with respect to applying tags. If the stack or version set is collapsed, then the tag gets applied to all the photos in the stack or set.  If the stack or version set is expanded, then the tag is applied to the individual photo.

     

    It's curious that there is an Expand All Stacks command but not an Expand All Version Sets command.

     
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    Feb 13, 2010 7:19 PM   in reply to John R. Ellis

    johnrellis wrote:

     

    Note that tags and version sets behave the same way with respect to applying tags. If the stack or version set is collapsed, then the tag gets applied to all the photos in the stack or set.  If the stack or version set is expanded, then the tag is applied to the individual photo.

     

    It's curious that there is an Expand All Stacks command but not an Expand All Version Sets command.

    As usual, I stand corrected. Although, saving photos to a version set summarily applies pre-existing tags to all members of the set. whereas stacking does not.  (Why would it, he mused).

     

    As to the issue of the missing "expand all version sets command", perhaps we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. At the current rate of expansion in the size of PSE, and given Adobe's software engineers proclivity toward huge file sizes, it would probably add at least 50 MBs to the size of the program. But, surely I jest. Hmmm....

     
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    Jun 16, 2010 6:27 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)

    I concur with many other posters on the forum that Adobe's implementation of the Stacks feature is a failure.  I used version 5 of PSE for several years before finally biting the bullet and upgrading to version 8.  I regret the decision, given that many of the basic features I used in version 5 no longer work the same (and in my opinion, the way they should).

     

    I have dozens of "Collections" I created in version 5 to hold photos for my photo frame, photos for my kids' school projects, photos for sharing with friends, and so on and so on.  I got used to creating collections and applying the tags to any photos I wanted, whether they were stacked or not.

     

    But alas, Adobe chose to break that feature.  Now every time I try to link a stacked photo to an album, I end up with the entire stack.  If I apply a tag to a stacked photo and then filter on that tag, I see photos marked "Non Match" all over the well.  Funny, that never happened in 5.0.

     

    I even found that if I "unstack" my photos, put a few of them in an album, and then restack the original stack, once again ALL of the stacked photos are in the album!  Incredibly annoying.

     

    So I gave up using albums and tried using tags instead.  But when I filter by tag, I get photos I didn't want.  It marks them as "Non Match" in the photo well, but doesn't give me the option to show ONLY the matching photos (again, version 5 worked just fine).

     

    I've been a software engineer for 30 years, and I honestly cannot figure out what the Adobe designers were thinking when they created these headaches with stacks.  I've read the comments that albums aren't intended to be used to organize individual photos, and thus whole stacks get moved into them (whether you like it or not).  Gee, perhaps they should come up with a new name then -- because "album" doesn't fit this scenario.  When I go and purchase an ordinary (non-digital) 3-ring photo album at my local store, I use it to selectively store the photos I find most interesting in the order I prefer.  I don't just pick up stacks of photos and dump them in there!

     

    Come on Adobe -- rethink the design and fix it.  PLEASE.  And give users a free update or upgrade.  I don't want to find that I have to buy yet another version of the product to get the "fixes" that should have been there all along (ala Microsoft).  That's IF they ever fix the software.  (P.S. While you're at it, how about getting rid of the bloat and restoring the speedier performance that was in 5.0?)

     

    As an experienced (and disappointed) PC user I cannot recommend this software to anybody in its current state.  Adobe has created too many limitations and aggravations, and too much bloat, in what should be a top-shelf product.  That's sad.

     
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    Jun 16, 2010 6:38 PM   in reply to Jon in Indiana USA

    Yep, agree with all you have said!

     
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    Jun 16, 2010 11:29 PM   in reply to Jon in Indiana USA

    Jon in Indiana USA wrote:

     

    I concur with many other posters on the forum that Adobe's implementation of the Stacks feature is a failure.  I used version 5 of PSE for several years before finally biting the bullet and upgrading to version 8.  I regret the decision, given that many of the basic features I used in version 5 no longer work the same (and in my opinion, the way they should).   .....[      ]...............

     


    Come on Adobe -- rethink the design and fix it.  PLEASE.  And give users a free update or upgrade.  I don't want to find that I have to buy yet another version of the product to get the "fixes" that should have been there all along (ala Microsoft).  That's IF they ever fix the software.  (P.S. While you're at it, how about getting rid of the bloat and restoring the speedier performance that was in 5.0?)

     

    As an experienced (and disappointed) PC user I cannot recommend this software to anybody in its current state.  Adobe has created too many limitations and aggravations, and too much bloat, in what should be a top-shelf product.  That's sad.

    I have some good news and some bad news The good news is that the trial of the PSE-8 organizer doesn't expire. The bad news that is it the PSE-8 Organizer.

     

    The principal difference between PSE-6, 7, 8 and PSE-5 is 16 bit file handling. Since Jpeg is only 8 bit color depth, if you shoot only Jpeg format, there is no necessity of even dealing with issues of PSE past 5.0.

     

    Somewhere in this or another discussion, I believe that Adobe has switched from a M$ data base engine to SQLite (@PSE6). One supposes that this was another attempt at cost cutting, as is offshore development of the program. In an attempt to further add injury to insult, the program now requires activation. Which in and of itself is a good reason to not recommend it, since it seems, to me at least, to be the height of arrogance to release anything so buggy, then pass it off as something worth protecting

     

    Version 5.0 is orders of magnitude faster than  6, 7, or 8 in importing and generating thumnbnails. When the Adobe reader now approaches 90MB, you obviously are dealing with a corporation that is either clueless as to how to curtail bloat, or patently aloof in any willingness to do so. Here at least there's a solution, "Foxit Reader".

     

    As to the issue of either waiting for anything to be fixed, or asking for something to be fixed, my suggestions are, don't hold your breath, and don't waste your breath, in that order.

     
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    Jun 17, 2010 5:31 AM   in reply to captaincranky

    Thanks for your kind suggestions it really worked

     

    Website Design Florida
     
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    Jan 15, 2012 5:47 PM   in reply to (Trevor_Thomson)

    Well, it's been a year and a half since I last posted on this thread, so I thought I would see if anybody is still reading it.

     

    I'm still suffering with the nonsensical behaviour of the "stacks" feature in Premiere Elements 8, where it seems determined to show "non match" results every time I try to search for tagged photos.  It displays every photo in every stack that contains any photo with the tag I am searching on.

     

    Sorry to vent...

     

    Can anybody tell me if this "bug" in PSE has been fixed in versions 9 or 10?

     
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    Jan 17, 2012 7:55 PM   in reply to Jon in Indiana

    I too would like to know if the stack problem is fixed before updating to PSE 10.

     
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    Mar 5, 2012 6:21 AM   in reply to PVRalph

    Got some bad news - I found this thread after doing several Google searches.  I couldn't for the life of me figure out why a software product would show "non-matches" in response to a search for simple tags.  I was almost 100% positive I was doing something wrong.  Why is the Organizer so broken and not being fixed?

     

    I just bought PSE 10, btw....

     

    The facial recognition and some of the other features in PSE are really nice.  I guess I'll just have to not use stacks.... a shame.  I'm sure we are all trying to use stacks for the same reason - just to avoid the cluttered view of ALL the photos.

     

    Dissapointed Adobe.

     
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