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2317 Views 24 Replies Latest reply: May 16, 2009 7:41 PM by konakane RSS
Calculating status... 10 posts since
Mar 20, 2009
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Mar 20, 2009 3:14 AM

Exporting photos to swf - Worthless, what's up???

I hope I am doing something wrong, but the nice high quality photos I insert in my docs and magazine become all blurry when exported to a swf. When reviewing the software, I figured with an option called "lossless" - "do nothing" that meant an unadulterated photo export. But the same file exported to PDF ends up at 7-8 MB, while the "lossless" swf ends up under 2 MB. Seems to be very lossy to me. Tell me I'm missing something.

But I read elsewhere from Adobe while checking around that "InDesign automatically converts high-resolution print assets to low-resolution web assets upon export to SWF or XFL."

Is there anyway to get a quality photo that will hold up under zooming when using the swf export. I would like to have the page turning functionality while providing nice clear photos in a magazine format.

I'm using the latest version of the trial In Design Software on a good Intel based Mac.

Thanks
  • Mr. Met User 1,943 posts since
    Feb 7, 2002
    Web images by definition are lossy. If you have a 300 dpi image and the web uses 96, how can it not be lossless? Are you viewing your swf file in a browser or another app? When viewing in a browser the photos should look fine.
  • Steve Werner Community Professional 2,477 posts since
    Aug 11, 2002
    You should consider exporting to PDF instead, where you have much more control over the exported quality.
  • [Jongware]-GfBROo Star 5,362 posts since
    Dec 17, 2006
    InDesign is not advertised as a full blown make-your-own-swf app. Instead, it's a desktop publishing tool, for creating books, adverts, magazines, and other print-based targets. The swf export comes as 'extra'. So it seems you chose the wrong type of software.

    >Then I invested in some expensive software to be able to import customer's PDFs into Indesign.

    With that, you must mean ID itself because it has been basic function from at least v.2 (we're at 6.0 now).
  • Nini Tjäder User 1,733 posts since
    Aug 11, 2002
    No, you cannot edit a pdf in InDesign itself, only place them. Never could. You can do limited editing of a pdf in Acrobat Pro, and some more with additional plugins in Acrobat Pro, but the best place is always the original files and then re-creating the pdf. PDF is primarily an end format not meant for editing.
  • Bob Levine Community Professional 19,515 posts since
    Aug 11, 2002
    > Yes you can edit PDFs within ID, with an ID plug in by Recosoft called PDF2ID.

    But then you're not editing a PDF...you're editing an InDesign document.

    Bob
  • Sandee Cohen User 877 posts since
    Mar 28, 2007
    Dean,

    It's not exactly worthless, but as you have discovered it's not too sophisticated.

    I consider it the equivalent of the primitive export to HTML we had in version 2 of ID. (Not CS2, but version 2.)

    That made a page, but it was hardly as good as if you had made a real HTML page in Dreamweaver.

    However, the best thing I think is the export to XFL. That allows me to pass my work onto a professional Flasher who can add all the skins and bells and whistles I need.
  • AnneMarie Concepcion Community Professional 393 posts since
    Nov 26, 2006
    >There is a third party developer that has written a nice easy to use script to provide control buttons and zoom feature, but since the images are such low quality, a zoom is useless.

    And who is this? Do you have a link/more details?

    Thanks ... curious minds want to know...

    AM
  • Steve Werner Community Professional 2,477 posts since
    Aug 11, 2002
    Not only that, but unlike the other applications in the Adobe Creative Suite, Flash output is NOT color managed. You also might have issues of color shifts unless you had kept everything in RGB all the way through the process.
  • Mr. Met User 1,943 posts since
    Feb 7, 2002
    Dean: All web art by definition is lo res compared to print.

    As far as research, I went to the ID users group meeting around the time CS4 launched and the limitations of swf were immediately clear. Also, I wouldn't have expected a print page layout to export flawless files for web. It's not what ID does.

    Incidentally, you're aware that you should design web only newsletters horizontally as opposed to vertically for print? You didn't mention it so I thought I would throw that out there.
  • Mr. Met User 1,943 posts since
    Feb 7, 2002
    Copy the "hi res" web photo to your desktop. Place into an indesign file and print. You will see the difference immediately. A monitor uses much fatter dots than a press. Hard to explain to a novice but rest assured what you think of as high resolution images are emphatically low resolution images when compared to a printed image.

    Or better yet. Take an image that you have on your computer at 300 dpi. Dupe the file and give it a new name. Open that file in PS and save for web. Place the save for web file besides the original in ID and print.

    Here's a tutorial on understanding resolution
  • Bob Levine Community Professional 19,515 posts since
    Aug 11, 2002
    Dean, I think it's very important that you understand that this is a 1.0
    feature. If you'd like to see it improved and have suggestions here's
    the place to do so:

    http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

    Bob
  • (tricialay) User 3 posts since
    Nov 19, 2004
    Dean -- I have been having a lot of the same issues you have, even as a 20 year veteran of print and online design. So don't feel too bad about being a newbie, that's not the only problem here. :-)

    One work around for the image resolution problem that I have been testing is to export the InDesign file itself at a much larger size than it will be placed on the web page. I haven't worked all the bugs out, but it does allow for higher quality when the user "zooms in" to the individual pages.

    Thanks for the heads up about Paananen's work. I could use that product myself.
  • Calculating status... 1 posts since
    Apr 6, 2009

    Dean (and all) -- I have a few comments and pointers for you.
    1. JPEG Quality within SWF Export
    First and foremost, unfortunately there is a bug in the JPEG Quality setting of the InDesign CS4 SWF Export dialog. The bug is that no matter what value you choose from the pop-up menu (Minimum, Low, Medium, High, Maximum), they will all end up as Medium quality. The bad news is that this bug was not discovered (internally) or reported (by pre-release and CS4 customers) before we shipped CS4 (6.0.0), or the 6.0.1 dot release. The good news is that it will be fixed in the next dot release (6.0.2). I can't provide a specific date for the next dot release yet.

     

    2. JPEG vs Lossless (Do Nothing)
    This is a case of poor wording in the user interface. The Lossless choice listed in the Image Compression pop-up menu has nothing to do with JPEG. If you choose Lossless, the bitmap images in the SWF will be exported as PNG files. JPEG is a file format that uses Lossy compression, whereas PNG files use Lossless compression. PNGs usually look better than any JPEG exported below Maximum Quality, but have a much higher file size than JPEGs. For the next version of InDesign, we plan on renaming these two options to make them more understandable. Instead of "JPEG" and "Lossless (Do Nothing)", they will be changed to "JPEG (Lossy)" and "PNG (Lossless)". To make it even better, ideally when you choose Lossless, the JPEG Quality option would grey out to reinforce that it has nothing to do with the Lossless option. For now, I hope my explanation here helps.

     

    3. Resolution of Exported Images in SWFs
    Yes, if the effective resolution of an image placed in InDesign is higher than 72dpi, then SWF and XFL Export downsamples them to 72dpi. This downsampling happens BEFORE the image compression choice (JPEG or PNG) kicks in. This was intended to be a helpful feature. Our thinking was that if you wanted to export a digital version of a document whose primary purpose was to be a print document, this would save you from having to manually resample every placed image in Photoshop and relink them in InDesign. In that context, it is a helpful convenience.

     

    4. "Zoomable" Digital Documents
    However, for the use case you are going after, meaning you want a digital version that can be zoomed in on by the end-user, this downsampling to 72dpi doesn't help you. You want your bitmaps to be at least twice the screen resolution so that when you zoom in on them in the Flash Player, you see the additional pixels at that zoom ratio instead of a bigger version of a low resolution image. Based on feedback from threads like this, we have captured that it would be helpful to allow the user to specify what resolution they'd like the bitmaps within the export SWF to be and we hope to add that feature to a future version of InDesign.

     

    That said, adding this would still not get you what you want. You want the user to be able to zoom in and then pan the digital document around. Unless you build that functionality into your actual SWF, just having higher resolution images in your SWFs isn't going to satisfy what you are after. When you right-click on any SWF file in a web browser, you'll get a context menu that gives you the option to Zoom In. Once you do that though, the Flash Player does not change your cursor to a Hand tool to let you pan the SWF around, nor do you get scroll bars. Maybe exporting a "pannable" SWF is something we could add to a future version of InDesign, but for now, that is why we included export to Flash CS4 Professional in addition to direct SWF Export in InDesign CS4 so you can add that functionality to your digital documents there.

     

    In many of the examples I've seen where you can zoom in on a digital magazine, they are actually using a hybrid approach. Meaning, there is a 144dpi PDF as a base layer, and then the interactive and animated content are SWF files overlaid on top of the PDF content layer. These digital magazines are typically published in partnership with one of the vendors who focus on converting the very same PDF that was used to output the print version of a magazine. They use that PDF as their starting point, and then layer the interactive content on top. Your last post in this thread points out that you've cobbled together a similar approach to what you are trying to achieve.

     

    4. Tip: JPEG Pass-Through
    Here is an undocumented feature in the InDesign CS4 SWF and XFL Export commands. I call it JPEG Pass-Through. What it means is that if you place a 72dpi JPEG into InDesign at the dimensions you intend to use it in your SWF/XFL file, the JPEG gets "passed through" exactly as it came into InDesign. Meaning, it will not be resampled and it will not be recompressed. If you scale the JPEG in InDesign however, then the downsampling and compression options will kick-in at export time.

     

    5. Related Tip: Designing with Pixels in InDesign
    No, you cannot choose Pixels as a measurement system in InDesign (any version through CS4). However, you can use Points as your measurement system as a workaround. By default, 1 point equals 1 pixel in InDesign because a point is 1/72nd of an inch. So if you draw a rectangle that is 400 points by 300 points in InDesign, when you export at 100% to SWF or XFL, you'll end up with a 400 px by 300 px rectangle. So... if you intend to use InDesign to create a digital document from the start, instead of "converting" a print document, use Pixels as your measurement system in Photoshop, and set the resolution of the images you'll use to 72dpi. Save them as JPEGs, and control the image quality of the JPEG as part of the JPEG or Save for Web options out of Photoshop (or Fireworks). When you place them into ID, they will come in at "actual size" if you just click on the page with the loaded Place Gun. If you don't change their scale, they will go out to SWF exactly like they came in.

     

    I hope this information is helpful to you. This feature set in CS4 was our first attempt at having InDesign be a layout tool for interactive content in addition to being the best print layout tool on the planet. (OK, as the product manager, I'm obviously biased on that last part. :)

     

    We believe it provides useful functionality for making interactive presentations and interactive documents with simple buttons, page transitions and hyperlinks via SWF Export. If you need to go beyond what you can create through direct SWF Export, you can hand-off to Flash CS4 Professional and continue working on the project there via the XFL Export option. InDesign CS4 was not intended to be the only thing you'd need to replicate all the functionality you see in solutions such as Zinio, Texterity, Ceros, nxtbook, etc.

     

    For now, I apologize for the unfortunate bug mentioned earlier. Know that we are working diligently to resolve that. Until then, the "JPEG Pass Through" tip can get you better results.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Michael Ninness
    InDesign Senior Product Manager

  • Calculating status... 1 posts since
    Apr 14, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Apr 14, 2009 7:19 PM (in response to mninness)
    Re: Exporting photos to swf - Worthless, what's up???

    I just wanted to add feedback that we got hit by this bug today, and (as a non-Flash person) got to spend the better part of a day researching a workaround for my boss. To rant for a moment, I'm a little incredulous that something such as "the dialog options don't do anything" made it into a shipping product that costs over $600--1.0 feature or not. Thanks.

  • konakane Calculating status... 3 posts since
    May 16, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. May 16, 2009 7:41 PM (in response to mninness)
    Re: Exporting photos to swf - Worthless, what's up???

    I have just now read the detailed and much appreciated response from the Senior Project Manager of InDesign. It is laudable that he would take the time to fashion such a detailed explanation. Thanks Michael. Sorry I didn't notice your reply sooner, but I've spent the last 6 weeks pursuing a direction other than InDesign.

     

    I've ranted enough about the short comings of the page turning feature of InDesign. But since this was the only reason I purchased it, that should be understandable. I had intended to bypass the rather expensive and inconvenient online publishing solutions Michael mentioned. But compared with the functionality offered by those services, the InDesign feature was no more than a toy. And not a very good one at that.

     

    The concept would be a winner. There are many organizations that are struggling with printing and mailing costs for their publications, but there has been no quality alternative. PDFs are nice, but (and it sounds silly) people miss turning pages. When people first see a well done high quality page turning online publication, it makes an impression. And when they see that audio/video has been embedded within the pages, they see it as a viable, and even better, alternative to print.

     

    A third party has just developed an "add-on" solution to InDesign, and added some much needed functionality to the InDesign page turning feature. The developer has been very helpful, and after a day of testing, it appears to be a very nice piece of software. http://www.prepress.fi/index.php?id=157

     

    But I have apparently run into another shortcoming of InDesign in it's ability to embed swf, flv, mov, or any other motion effects to the pages of a page turning project. I am starting another thread to ask this question, but thought I would place it here in case the Senior Project Manager is still monitoring this thread. Please check here for the other thread if you have any knowledge that may help me solve my latest attempt to utilize InDesign for an interactive online magazine. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/434018?tstart=0

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