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giuerom
giuerom Calculating status...
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Can pdf forms always send xml data (even if pdf is not extended)?

May 19, 2009 2:38 AM

Hi,

 

my problem is the following. I've got the acrobat professional license, so I can create pdf forms.

 

I added to my form a submit via mail button, and sent it to the end user, who had only the acrobat reader. He was able to fill the form and send its data through the email button, and I received an xml file with the data.

 

Since I had not extended the document, I guess this is always possible, so I can always receive the xml data from the filled forms, can't I?

 

Then also extended the document from Acrobat Professional (Tools -> Enable Usage Rights in Adobe Reader), since I need the end client be able to save the form. Now I simply sent this extended document via mail ( not using the Distribuite Form tool in Acrobat), the user clicked the button and I received again my xml.

 

Now, I want to deliver my document to up 500 end clients, do I have any limitation?

I quote acrobat licenze agreement:

 

14.13.3 For any unique Extended Document, you may only either (a) Deploy such Extended Document to an unlimited number of unique recipients but shall not extract information from more than five hundred (500) unique instances of such Extended Document or any hardcopy representation of such Extended Document containing filled form fields [...]

 

Since the feature I decribed before (the xml data emailing) is granted even if the document is not extended, I think this limitation does not apply to me. Am I right?

 

The limitation instead applies if I use the "Distribuite form" feature (Forms -> Distribuite Forms...) in acrobat professional. If I use this feature to distribuite the form, an email is automatically sent by acrobat (and not manually by me, as before) and pdf dataset is created. When the end client cliks the button, a pdf (and not an xml) with the data is sent to me. If I double click it acrobat fills the dataset that was created with the data. Is it the infomation extration the licence refers to?

 

This is my conclusion: a pdf form can always send xml data via reader, and if I extend with acrobat, the end user can also save it. The only limitation is distribution of the form using the "Distribuite form" feature, but if I don't use it I've no limitation on the number of times I can get xml data.

Can anyone confirm my conclusion is right?

 

Thanks a lot

Giuseppe Romeo

3642 Views   17 Replies   Latest reply: giuerom, Jul 23, 2009 12:31 AM
 
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    1. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 2:45 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    Can anyone confirm my conclusion is right?

    You are right.

     
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  • Bill@VT
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    2. Bill@VT,
    May 19, 2009 6:40 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    I would agree except for a small twist I am reading in your post. If you add extended rights to allow saving, it is not an issue of using the "Distribuite form" feature, but that more than 500 individuals will be getting the form. Deployment does not read as "Distribuite form". Deployment may be by web or whatever. The intent is 500 individual uses. Submitting the data by XML or FDF (even HTML) is not limited.

     

    One other aspect you seemed to maybe be confused about. Since one person wass able to e-mail the form back you think that is safe. If you are talking about 500, I would guess that you will have at least 10 that will cuss you out because they can not submit the form. That is because their e-mail client is not set up to use the form. It requires MAPI and they may not have that turned on. If you use e-mail, expect problems with submission. You should submit to a web script, not e-mail.

     
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  • giuerom
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    3. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 7:12 AM   in reply to Bill@VT
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    I'm still confused. I want that more than 500 individuals will get the extended form (and so be able to save it).

    According to the licence, it seems to be possible if I do not "extract data" more than 500 times.

     

    Since, as you write "submitting the data by XML or FDF (even HTML) is not limited", and this is what matters to me, I guess I can have more than 500 users saving the form and more than 500 xml back to my email. This is the point I'm not sure about.

    You are right, if I don't use a web script, users can have problems, so this is the next step (if no license prevents me to).

     

    Thanks for further clarifications

     
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    4. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 7:40 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    I guess I can have more than 500 users saving the form and more than 500 xml back to my email.

    More than 500 users can use your form, but they can't save the filled form. They can save the empty form on their system.

     
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  • giuerom
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    5. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 7:46 AM   in reply to Bernd Alheit
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    So the first 500 users can save the filled extended form and the following users can't (sorry if I'm redundant)?

     
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    6. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 7:52 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    No. You can't give an extended pdf file to more than 500 users. When the pdf file is not extended then there are no limit.

     
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  • giuerom
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    7. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 8:01 AM   in reply to Bernd Alheit
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    Sorry if I insist: the license says:

     

    14.13.3 For any unique Extended Document, you may only either (a) Deploy such Extended Document to an unlimited number of unique recipients but shall not extract information from more than five hundred (500) unique instances of such Extended Document[...]

     
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    8. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 8:13 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    Then you can use only data from 500 users.

     

    You can also contact Adobe about this license issue.

     
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  • giuerom
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    9. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 8:15 AM   in reply to Bernd Alheit
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    Thanks a lot, can you kindly give me an address to contact Adobe?

     
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    10. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 8:18 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    You can try the 'Contact us' link.

     
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  • giuerom
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    11. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 8:50 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    In the mean time, I summarize the problem for further discussion.

     

    Any pdf form, even if It is not extended, can send xml data. So if I deliver more than 500 copies of an unextended form, these documents can all send xml data.

     

    BUT if I extend the form, and deliver it to more than 500 users, my form now has a limitation (that the simple unextended document hasn't!), and  the 501th, 502th, 503th... users now can't send xml data!

     

    I think there is something illogical.

     
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  • Bernd Alheit
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    12. Bernd Alheit,
    May 19, 2009 9:33 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    The 501th, 502th, 503th... users can send xml data. But the license doesn't allow the use of this data. Adobe will sell the Adobe LiveCycle Reader Extensions ES software:

    http://www.adobe.com/products/livecycle/readerextensions/

     
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  • giuerom
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    13. giuerom,
    May 19, 2009 9:41 AM   in reply to Bernd Alheit
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    Ok, now I've understood :-)

    Thanks a lot

     
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  • Bill@VT
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    14. Bill@VT,
    May 19, 2009 10:37 AM   in reply to giuerom
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    I went to the license for AA9, 8, and 7. The same type of wording is in all. You have brought up a very valid point and I think I agree with you. It says there are 2 different cases. 1. Unlimited distribution of the extended PDF with no more than 500 form submissions (I may be paraphrasing a bit) and 2. Limit to 500 distributed forms with unlimited submissions. I started thinking about it and it would seem that case 1 applies to the IRS that provides fillable tax forms. However, you can not submit the data online. However, there was another individual recently who was asking about managers in a company using the form for evaluations that would seem to be included under #2.

     

    Nice catch and it would seem that it pays to read the license carefully. I think I may have to modify my advice in the future. Thanks for the feedback and hope we have been helpful to some extent. I guess if there was really a big concern, it is time for the company lawyers. Bill

     
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  • kevin Mojaradi
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    15. kevin Mojaradi,
    Jul 22, 2009 2:52 PM   in reply to giuerom
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    What if I use Acrobat to make fillable forms, do not extend it and have people fill in and print and submit hardcopy.  Does the 500 rule apply to that?

     
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  • Bill@VT
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    16. Bill@VT,
    Jul 22, 2009 6:01 PM   in reply to kevin Mojaradi
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    As I read the EULA, the 500 limits applies if the full PDF form is submitted (I would assume that means electronically, but that is a lawyer's call). It only applies when the Reader Extensions are activated. There are some work arounds, but it is a lot easier for you to look at section 15 of the EULA than for me to try to explain my interpretation (particularly since I do not even know how you might want to use the form). If you can not find the EULA in your Acrobat folder, then they are available with a search at Adobe.com.

     
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  • giuerom
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    17. giuerom,
    Jul 23, 2009 12:31 AM   in reply to Bill@VT
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    Sorry, I've forgotten to update this forum.

     

    Adobe finally answered to my question, I posted it as comment to Acrobat Professional guide.

    Here is the link:

     

    http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Acrobat/9.0/Professional/WS58a04a822e3e501 02bd615109794195ff-7e0d.w.html

     

    It seems I was right: pdf forms can always send xml data, even if it is extended.

     

    Giuseppe

     
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