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24P HDV to DVD, can it be done???

May 30, 2009 9:08 AM

I'll be shooting a project in 24fps 1080 HDV (XH-A1).  Although I'll be delivering the majority of the footage to the web, I may need to make a DVD or two.

I was wondering if any of you have a process for shooting 24fps 1080 HDV and then making a standard definition DVD.

I'm assuming the final DVD would be NTSC 16:9 24P,  is that correct?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 30, 2009 9:42 AM   in reply to gold987987987

    Sure it can. The only thing is that it cannot be encoded in Encore -- you must encode it to MPEG-2 in Adobe Media Encoder directly from the Premiere timeline, then import the resulting .m2v file into Encore.

     

    It is well-known around here that I am no fan of the quality of Premiere's HD -> SD scaling: it looks weak, soft and the PAR is incorrect. Also, the colors are incorrectly encoded as BT.709 instead of BT.601 [note: the color issue has been fixed in CS4].

     

    Please see my page about these issues and read my workaround workflow. But note that the workflow shown here is only for interlaced (60i) material. For 24p, download my "advanced" hd2sd package. You will also need to use the freeware MPEG-2 encoder called HC Encoder.

     

    Here is a 24p-modified version of the procedures listed on the page:

     

     

    1. Export your sequence from Premiere using the DebugMode FrameServer plugin  (Export Movide settings : General : DebugMode FrameServer). This will create a  "signpost" file. Even though it appears as an AVI, it is really just a "pointer"  to the Premiere timeline. Choose output options that match your project settings  (such as 1440x1080, 23.976 fps, Progessive, etc.). Name the file "signpost.avi". The DebugMode FrameServer also provides some options. Choose "YUY2" for color  space format. Make sure "Write audio as PCM samples in signport AVI" is checked.  Network frameserver should remin unchecked.
    2. Create a new text document to serve as your AviSynth script (save it as  "premiere.avs"). Copy and paste this into the text file (and change the first  line to point to your FrameServer signpost .avi)

      hd2sd("signpost.avi", NR=2)

    3. Open the "premiere.avs" script file in VirtualDub. Your video should appear.  Scrub the timeline to make sure it's as you expect it to be.
    4. In VirtualDub, choose "File/Save .WAV..." and name the file appropriately. You can  import this into Encore and let Encore do the AC3 encoding.
    5. You must use HC Encoder to encode your .avs script to 24p MPEG-2.
    6. Import your .m2v and .wav as "assets" in Encore and author as desired
     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 30, 2009 12:40 PM   in reply to gold987987987

    Unfortunately, for the complete background on Dan's workflow, the forums have changed. There was an article with maybe 150 posts to it, where great detail was given and much discussion ensued. One forum member, Stanley Jones, is trying to ressurect many of those great posts, but it's been slow going. Do not know what Dan might still have available. Maybe, if he's got time, he'll attach some of this demo images (they were linked to his Web site back then), so people can see his results.

     

    Dan may still have some of his examples from his tests. I only wish that I'd saved the whole thing to PDF, but who knew that most of that would go down the tubes, like the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria - so very much was lost.

     

    Here's wishing everybody some good luck, like Stanley rebuilding the old forum articles. I'm just glad that Dan furnished a link to most of this on his site. I've been searching for that old thread to link to from several other fora. His post here is great, and more than I ever expected to see again.

     

    Hunt

     
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    May 30, 2009 6:06 PM   in reply to gold987987987

    My wokflow is:

     

    1.) compensating for the fact CS3 incorrectly converts YUV -> RGB

    2.) compensating for the factthat CS3 performs incorrect aspect ratio conversions

    3.) compensating for the fact that Premiere has piss-poor scaling quality

    4.) working around the fact that Encore is not cabable of encoding 24p

     

    It is not really very much work once you've established the process… and encoding quality and speed is MUCH better in HC Encoder than AME or Encore.

     

    Also --- the script example I provided applies a tiny but of (very fast) temporal noise reduction that can help you create very compressible video. There are many, many options for my hd2sd() function which are documented in the .txt file provided with the package.

     

    The conversion from HD 24p -> DVD 24p is actually pretty easy, from a processing stnadpoint. My workflow is even more beneficial with 1080i content, as it allows you to perform deinterlacing at a quality level that is light years beyond what the Adobe products provide. hd2sd() will auto-detect 24p, so the same sample script I provided can be used for 60i or 50i content.

     
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    May 30, 2009 6:12 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Hunt ---

     

    I found the original thread (started by Hugh) but it has been "edited," I believe:

     

    Here is the thread I started.

     

    -- Dan

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 31, 2009 12:37 PM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    Dan,

     

    Nice detective work. I find that getting much of anything by the new Search is extremely tough, at best. Maybe I have cursed at it so much, that it now just fails to spite me. Spent over an hour, looking for an article that I posted to the Encore forum only a couple of monts prior to the changeover - never could find it. Luckily, I posted a revised version to another forum, with some of the En-specific references removed or edited.

     

    Thanks,

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2009 11:56 AM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    Hi Dan,

     

    I'm currently working on a simply project in PPro CS3.  I hated the look of the exported project so, upon some research and questioning, I ran across your workflows.  I decided to give it a go.  Now I've run into a bit of a snag.


    When choosing the DeBugFrameserver plug-in in the Export>Movie portion of PPro it doesn't render the signpost.avi.  I choose Debug as the output, choose the correct location, choose the YUV12 option, check the PCM option and make sure the Network option is NOT checked.  When I hit Start Serving, nothing happens.  Frameserver goes to the Status window and then both Frameserver and PPro just sit there without rendering anything, no matter how long I wait for it to render.  I'm rendering only an 8-minute section of the project (Render Work Bar Area is chosen).

    Any thoughts on this?

     

    Also, the project is native 720p, 23.97fps, so I'm assuming the scripts you've posted elsewhere need to have Interlace=False.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2009 12:04 PM   in reply to Eric S 1

    The frameserver is waiting for *you* to do something.  The "something" that you should do is launch an app (like VirtualDub) and open the signpost.avi file.

     

    If you are using AviSynth scripts, then you set your AviSource in the script to the signpost file, and then open the .avs script in VirtualDub.  After you've set up the Video compression options in VDub, go to File>Save as AVI.  Once you save the output file, the frameserver will serve the frames just as fast VDub can ask for them.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2009 1:18 PM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    Spot-on, Jeff.  Thanks again.

    After opening up Virtual Dub I found that I had one or two errors in my AviSynth script, but they have been corrected.  (I LOVE the Virtual Dub error messages that inform exactly where the script error has occurred.  It saves enormous amounts of time.)

    Now I just need to read the Virtual Dub help files a bit to familiarize myself more with the program.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 12, 2009 11:42 PM   in reply to Dan Isaacs
    1. Import your .m2v and .wav as "assets" in Encore and author as desired

     

    Hey Dan.  You ever get an error with the HC Encoder created files?  Mine get imported into Encore just fine, but when I try and create the image file, it returns an error saying "File is not a valid MPEG."  Ever see that?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 12:17 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Hmmm. The only issue I've seen is when HC's VBR bias (Settings 3 tab) is set too low, which causes the the bitrate to spike and exceed DVD-legal range. You can try increasing it (50 or higher) and see if the issue goes away. This a bug in this latest release of HC.

     

    Also, there is a "Make DVD Compliant" button on HC's main page. You can try clicking that prior to encoding and it should fix any other settings that do not meet DVD specs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 8:44 AM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    I found the issue.

     

    In order to bring in my chapters, I was doing a dummy export first to get the .xmp.ses file, then overwriting the .m2v with HC Encoder.  It was the session file that was causing the error.  When I deleted that and used the same HC files, they worked fine.

     

    I'm still trying to find a solution, because not having chapter info come over automatically is just not acceptable.  However, the quality of HC Encoder is freakin' amazing.  I got a better picture out of HC Encoder at an average of 4 Mbps than I do out of AME at 7 Mbps. I want that quality!  But I also reeeeeealy want my chapters.

     

    Testing continues...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 9:43 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Write down the timecode of the markers in Pro and type them in in Encore. That's what i do.

     
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    Jun 13, 2009 10:22 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    HC also has a tab for importing/exporting marker lists (too bad Adobe has no equivalent)… but maybe you can try exporting an .EDL from Premiere so that at least you can copy/paste the times instead of writing them down. Maybe you can find a way of translating these to a list you can import in HC and maybe Encore will recognize the chapter markers from HC??? I've never tried, but it may be worth a shot.

     

    Didn't I tell you a long time ago that HC is the way to go?! The encoding quality is really great and, for me, the convenience of encoding directly from .avs files is indispensable. And how about the performance?? The two-pass encoding in HC is very, very fast and fully SMP-optimized.

     

    Premiere Pro CS3 -> DebugMode FrameServer -> AviSynth -> HC Encoder = Best Workflow Ever

     

    Now if only DebugMode would work in CS4. Grrrrrr.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 1:10 PM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    Dan,

     

    Just for fun, I used an hd2sd script that points to an HD .d2v file as the source, and uses the MT mode of AviSynth.  I cannot get HC to use more than one processor core.

     

    SMP is checked.  The tooltip in HC for SMP correctly identifies the number of processors (8).

     

    A 1-minute, 49-second file took 17 minutes and 28 seconds to encode using 2-pass VBR in HC.  The same file in VDub took 2 minutes, 26 seconds to convert using hd2sd, and 46 seconds to encode the VDub output via the AME (also 2-pass VBR).  Both VDub and the AME pegged all 8 cores.

     

    HC continues to be a quirky and unreliable encoding solution here.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 6:17 PM   in reply to Ann Bens

    Write down the timecode of the markers in Pro and type them in in Encore. That's what i do.

     

    Thanks, Ann, but..."not having chapter info come over automatically is just not acceptable."

     

    I may have found a solution, though.  If I export a dummy AVI (black video) and bring this into Encore, the chapter markers come in as expected.  I can then "Replace Asset" and point it to the .m2v.  As a work flow, this is viable.

     

    The only thing I don't like is that Premiere can't write a pure 24p DV file.  It adds the pulldown.  Which means the dummy export, even with "Optimize Stills" checked, is still the same size it would be with real video, rather than the very small file it would be were it 30i with Optimize Stills and nothing but a full black field.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 6:21 PM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    Premiere Pro CS3 -> DebugMode FrameServer -> AviSynth -> HC Encoder = Best Workflow Ever

     

    Well...I'll agree it's the best results I've ever gotten.  But as a work flow, it's rather lame.  It should be Premiere->AME->Comparable Results.  Adobe's partnership with MC on this front has worn itself out.  Time to find a better transcoding engine.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 8:06 PM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    Well, Jeff… I certainly defer to your testing, as it is way more accurate and thorough than what I'd ever do, but there are many variables here. I think the fault lies not so much with HC itself as with AviSynth and it multithreading in general. For example, HC will use all cores when you frameserve from Premiere. Likewise, if you use HC's lossless option, all cores will be pegged (mroe or less) on the 2nd encoding pass (where it is no longer dependent on AviSynth).

     

    Now, here's another (optimal?) scenario using HC to encode hd2sd output:

     

    1.) be sure that you set hd2sd(OutputColorSpace="YV12")

    2.) open your .avs in VirtualDub, choose "Fast Recompress" create a Lagarith SD intermediary .AVI

    3.) create another .avs script:

     

    AviSource("lagarith_sd.avi", pixel_type="YV12")

     

    4.) open this .avs in HC Encoder

     

    It seems inconvenient in a way, but I would actually rather deal with a second, simple script like this than to import into Premiere, go to "Interpret Footage", create a new sequence, place the clip, export to AME…

     

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 13, 2009 8:43 PM   in reply to Dan Isaacs

    I think the fault lies not so much with HC itself as with AviSynth and it multithreading in general. For example, HC will use all cores when you frameserve from Premiere.

    You are most likely correct.  I've noticed that I can't render a sequence or encode with the AME and use more than one core if an .avs script is the source file (imported through the Premiere AVS Importer plug-in).  It's actually faster to create an .avi file with VirtualDub and use that in Pr.

     

    I would actually rather deal with a second, simple script like this than to import into Premiere, go to "Interpret Footage", create a new sequence, place the clip, export to AME…

    You can skip adding the VirtualDub output to a sequence.  You can export it to the AME directly from the Project panel.  The Interpret Footage operation is still required.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 13, 2010 8:18 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    I never thought I'd get to read through all this stuff!!! I've been around the bend after reading an article in another forum about editing avchd file in cs2 without going through encoding...etc for all i understood! so finally i have avisynth installed, avsP for the scrip and downloaded QT alternative  for direct show and tried juggling all this with PPcs2! I did not go very far, the instructions said that I write a script ( I did first in notepad and called it "my file.avs") as it would not be recognised by PP (after using "all files" type to be able to see it!) So I DL AvsP but I'm running in the same problem! - It says to write a scrip and save it just like another asset in PP and it supposes to show as a square pixel to which I have to give some attributes. There's no way I can see how to import a  "myscript.avs" as an asset!   I must have missed something. Perhaps someone can makes this a little clearer and more gentle for me!

    Yes I'm still battling with my new JVC GZ hm200 and those darn .mts files. I don't even get a fair result in XP mode. JVC contact reckons I should with my duo core 2.8 and whatever is recognised out of my 4gb ram.

    I just thought may be this Script method might help me to get a better result. ok 3:15 am I'm off and hope!

    Nice to see a few  people I've encountered and who helped me before in this thread though! G'nite!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 13, 2010 8:33 AM   in reply to Michelmnr

    Check out my hd2sd tutorial here:

     

    BDVS Tutorials

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 14, 2010 3:33 AM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    "You're Jeff Bellune, Thanks for your time!" This is an amazing gift of a video awesome (but still intimidating). I was waiting for you to have a drink or a rest but the edit is too good and so smooth. I usually have a little trouble with the spoken words in American tutorials, this is clear as a bell. I certainly will go back to it in little seances. You did mention cs4, does this mean I'll have restriction with cs2? although latter I thought I heard compatibility from pp1.5 but I need to go back to it to get a better understanding. I do have avisynth and gspot installed I wonder if AvsP has Virtual Dub built in it, anyway you also were so clear and precise on where, how to get it and how to install it, that I should not have much difficulty to have a go at it.

    Someone else told me to install avs import plugin for premiere pro (from videoeditorskit.sourceforge.net) this was not mentioned in the simplistic guide I read to use these scripts as asset. and I think your tutorial points out to make avsp notepad compliant. but it seems that I can just write a notepad script and save the file .avs type then with the plugin install would be able to import as an asset. Here I had a queery, In notepad no one seems to comment about the "encoding" 4 options that seem defaulted to ANSI, is it because it irelavant? Once again thank you.

    MM

     
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    Mar 14, 2010 7:44 PM   in reply to Michelmnr

    I'm glad you enjoyed the tutorial.    You can use Notepad, avsP, or any other text editor that you want to create your AviSynth scripts.

     

    You should be able to export Lagarith AVI files from Premiere Pro 2.0, which can be used with hd2sd.

     

    You could also try the AVS importer plug-in for Premiere Pro; your choice.

     

    ANSI text works just fine.

     

    -Jeff

     
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    Mar 15, 2010 9:06 PM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    I wonder if this will work also for my AVCHD .mts file (h264)

     
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    Mar 16, 2010 3:41 AM   in reply to Michelmnr

    It should.  Most of my testing was done using AVCHD footage.

     

    Give it a try and let us know how it works out.

     

    -Jeff

     
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