Adobe Community: Track Matte - Fails in non-virgin project

Ed.Macke

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Track Matte - Fails in non-virgin project

Oct 1, 2009 2:00 PM

I finally got around to trying some Track Matte stuff - with keyframes and everything!

But I had a problem: When working in my normal project, the Track Matte did not work. Instead of the matte allowing the track underneath to show through, I just got a big white blob. Nice.

When I tried the EXACT SAME THING in a new project (I was very careful to follow the same steps exactly), everything worked fine! I got what I wanted, exported the clip to a DV-AVI, re-imported it to my main project, and presto.

I'm glad there's a workaround. However, I'd obviously prefer to not have to start a new project every time I want to do a Track Matte effect!

Anybody have any insights on what might cause the Track Matte not to work as its supposed to? Seems like a PRE bug because it works in one project but not another, but not sure what causes it... full moon, perhaps?

PRE7 / WinXP Pro SP3

2702 Views 27 Replies Latest reply: Bill Hunt, May 11, 2010 4:51 PM

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1. Steve Grisetti,

Oct 1, 2009 2:02 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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It's pretty hard to offer advice without knowing more details about that other project, Ed, or at least seeing a screen capture of the timeline and Track Matte settings.

Although you're no rookie, so I'm sure you've got it set up right.

Sometimes, in Premiere Elements, if you do a Track Matte and then change the settings or clip positions, it doesn't work and you have to start it again from scratch. But that doesn't sound like what's going on here, does it?

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2. Ed.Macke,

Oct 1, 2009 2:08 PM in reply to Steve Grisetti

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In my original project (the one where it wasn't working), I tried starting from scratch several times, sometimes even closing and re-opening the project in between attempts.

I kept thinking I was doing something wrong, but then I found a forum thread (somewhere...) that suggested doing it in a new project - and that worked.

After I found the secret, I even went back to the original project and tried again, knowing what I needed to do to make it work... no go again.

I'll try it again, and see if I can get a screen grab for you...

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3. Steve Grisetti,

Oct 1, 2009 2:11 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Also try deleting your render files first to see if that makes a difference.

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4. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 5:46 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

I've not seen the same, but maybe I have used Track Matte Keying very early in a Project.

I have an older Project, that I have used for a year to test various problems for folk on this forum. It's comprised of tons of different media, from DV-AVI to stills, tons of different Titles, and also some animation. I think that it does have a Track Matte Keying Effect added to at least one clip already, but I'll use this old-timer as a test.

Now, did this happen with an older Project, but you added new Assets and applied the Track Matte Keying, or did you add it to existing Assets, that other editing had been done on?

FWIW, I'm on PrE 2.0 on the laptop with XP-Pro SP3.

Let me know exactly how you'd like for me to test this for you, and I'll use that old Project as the base.

Good luck,

Hunt

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5. Ed.Macke,

Oct 1, 2009 6:22 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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OK, here's a screen shot, and supporting details

On Video 1 is my original footage (DV-AVI, clipped on both ends)
On Video 2 is a copy of Video 1, only with a mosiac applied and using a track matte
On Video 3 (track matte) is a white circle I created in the Titler (RGB=255,255,255)

As you can see, what I get is Video 1 with the white circle superimposed. If I select "Reverse" on Video 2's track matte, I get Video 2 (mosaic'd) with a white circle superimposed.

Hitting "Enter" to render the footage didn't change anything.

Hunt: the project is a fairly new project. As you can see, it's only about a minute and a half in, so I haven't done very much yet. All media was added via Get Media > Hard Drive (it's all DV-AVI captured via Firewire using Scenealyzer Live).

Everything in the screen shot was appended to the existing project (I dropped the clip on Video 1, trimmed it, copied it to Video 2, applied mosaic to Video 2, created the circle in the Titler, stretched it to match the video length, applied Track Matte to Video 2). I didn't change any settings for any effects, just used the defaults.

Attachments:

2009-10-01_195926.png (255.6 K)

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6. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 6:30 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

Sounds simple enough. I've got my test Project open, and as I said, it's about a year old, and has had hundreds of things added, changed, deleted, etc., over that time. Should be old enough.

Be right back.

Hunt

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7. Ed.Macke,

Oct 1, 2009 6:30 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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And here's the exact same steps in a brand new project.

Now it works correctly... the area defined by the white circle is mosaic'd (even without being rendered)

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2009-10-01_202851.png (351.3 K)

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8. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 6:39 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

Bad news. I got the same thing that you did. The Title does not link as a Track Matte to the Clip on Video 2, which is a dupe of the Clip on Video 1. It acts as a Shape, regardless of the choices made.

I'll now try this with an Imported still from PS, just to see if this changes.

Sorry to bear the bad news - you seem to be correct,

Hunt

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9. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 6:48 PM in reply to Bill Hunt

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Ed,

Something else that I noticed was that in the little Preview Panel, the Effect shows correctly. I have Rendered the Timeline, and nothing that I can do yet, has altered anything. One thing that I am going to do is put my Track Matte on higher Video Tracks to see if that helps.

Hunt

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10. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 6:54 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Well, I tried each of the other two Video Tracks, and then created a new Video Track, #6. No go. I also noted that when I added the Track Matte Keying, then changed anything, the Mosaic Effect died on VT 2, though it still appeared in Edit Effects. I had to Delete it, then Add it again. Odd.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Hunt

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11. Ed.Macke,

Oct 1, 2009 7:41 PM in reply to Bill Hunt

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I tried a PS shape, as well, thinking maybe it was something screwy with the Titler shape.

But I got the same result.

It seems to be something with PRE not using the shape as a matte...?

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12. Ed.Macke,

Oct 1, 2009 7:44 PM in reply to Bill Hunt

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Yes! I remember I got that, too. The teeny preview thumbnail looked correct.

That's one reason why I kept thinking that I was on the right track but overlooking something...

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13. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 8:16 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

I'm now going to try Steve's tip, on removing all Render files from the Project. Will report back in a few.

Hunt

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14. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 8:23 PM in reply to Bill Hunt

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Ed,

Deleting the Render files had no effect. I also tried my other two Video Tracks, with no change, and adding another Video Track and moving the Track Matte Key image to that made no difference.

Sorry, it seems that a Project can "go stale." I have a few more tests, and will report.

Hunt

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15. Bill Hunt,

Oct 1, 2009 8:31 PM in reply to Bill Hunt

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With no Render files, I added two new Video Tracks, VT 6 & VT 7. The copy of my Video w/ Mosaic Effect was added to VT6 (new Track), and the Track Matte added to VT 7 (new Track). Track Matte Keying was added to the Clip on VT 6 w/ Mosaic and linked to VT 7. Same problem.

I cannot think of anything else to try. It appears that at some time, a Project can no longer use Track Matte Keying, at least in PrE 2.0, my version. If you, or anyone else, can think of something else to try, I'll be glad to do it.

As they say on Myth Busters - BUSTED! It does not work. I'd love to know at what point a Project will no longer accept Track Matte Keying. I have never experienced this in PrPro, and some of the Projects have been years old, and still accept Track Matte Keying.

Hunt

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16. Ed.Macke,

Oct 2, 2009 6:24 AM in reply to Bill Hunt

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Thanks for trying out so many trials, Hunt. I know it didn't solve the problem, but I think it certainly verified that there *is* a problem - and it certainly helps to know I'm not the only one!

Interesting that it's happening in PRE 2. I'm using PRE 7... so it would appear this bug has been around a while? I can't believe more people haven't hit it.

And, yes, I would love to know, too, what the trigger is for the Track Matte no longer working - so I could avoid it if possible.

My project has just begun - there's only about 90 seconds so far, and what's there is extremely straight-forward - a few clips, trimmed; maybe a Title; and some volume adjustments. No fancy effects or oddball video formats or unrendered video or still images, etc. So whatever the mechanism is has to be pretty simple. Maybe something with Titles?

On one hand, I'm glad there's a workaround (i.e. doing it in a new project and exporting) but on the other hand... this Track Matte stuff is kind of cool and I'd hate to have to fire up a new project every time I want to use it.

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17. Bill Hunt,

Oct 2, 2009 6:56 AM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

In comparison to your Project, mine is on PrE 4.

It consists of Imported stills: most are in .TIFF format, .JPEG and some .PSD's; several DV-AVI Type II's, several Titles, created in PrE, some Title Templates, one used as a Track Matte; and one SmartSound creation. Over its "life," there have been many Assets that have been brought in, and then eliminated. There have never been any motion Assets, that were not DV-AVI's. Note that there is a Track Matte Keying Effect added early on, and it still works fine. It was added about the time of the creation of the Project. The Timeline had been Rendered very early, but only small segments had been Rendered, as I tested things for others.

Because of the other Track Matte Keying Effect, I tried creating additional Video Tracks, to test this instance of Track Matte Keying. That did not work either.

I'm not sure what that "trigger" was, and could well have happened months ago.

I am open to any thoughts, or ideas, and can try anything to see if the "trigger" can be reset in some way. Now, I have removed all Render files, and have tried the Track Matte Keying, first with no Render, and then with a WAB Render of this the affected Clips w/ Track Matte Keying. This was on an added DV-AVI Type II file. Note that there was no Audio in the dupe of that Clip - the one with the Mosaic Effect and the Track Matte Keying Effect. Also maybe worth noting, when the Track Matte Keying Effect was removed from that dupe Clip, the Mosaic Effect, though still there, with the same settings, ceased to have any effect. If it too was Deleted, and reinserted, it functioned perfectly. Obviously, something else, besides the inability to do the Track Matte Keying Effect, is in effect as well.

This puzzles me too. I'd love to find that it's OE on my part, and not some Bug in the program. As stated, I'm open to trying anything to get to the bottom of this.

I have another older Project, also a test Project, but I do not believe that it has ever had Track Matte Keying used in it. I will try with it this AM.

Hunt

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18. Ed.Macke,

Oct 2, 2009 7:24 AM in reply to Bill Hunt

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It's like a mystery novel, isn't it?

Other "clues"
My project was created in PRE7,edited in PRE7
The project was created about a month ago, and has only had a few clips added and trimmed.
At one point, I was trying out the Ken Burns 3-D effect with 2 stills on separate tracks. I don't remember whether I had done that in this project or not (I think it was a separate project), but if it *was* in this project, everything was subsequently deleted.
The only moving assets were DV-AVI Type II, other than Titles created in the Titler. I did add a PE7-created still (PSD?) to see if using that as a matte worked, but that was only after the initial Tracke Matte failure.
I tried the Track Matte both with and without audio on VT2. I think in the screen shot the audio tracks aren't displayed, but it didn't make any difference - it failed no matter what.
Render / no render. WAB render or full project render. Doesn't seem to effect anything.
I didn't have any issues with the mosiac effect not working
So far, I've only tried the Track Matte in conjunction with the mosiac effect on VT2. I haven't tried, for instance, a Tracke Matte in conjunction with a Guassian Blur.
Other than the mosiac and Tracke Matte on VT2, no other effects (opacity, transitions, keyframes) were applied to the clips on VT1 and VT2. There were probably such effects on other clips in the project.

I, too, would love to find it's just PEBCAK problem. Alternatively, if it *is* a PRE bug, I'd love to find how to work around it w/o resorting to new projects.

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19. Ed.Macke,

Oct 3, 2009 11:48 AM in reply to Ed.Macke

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More clues in these screenshots.

Notice that VT2 is a woman holding a baby, and VT1 is the baby laying on a blanket (normally VT2 would be a mosciac'd version of VT1, but I'm using different clips so differences show up more).

VT3 is just a circle and text I created in the titler, and am using for a Track Matte on VT2. Obviously it's not a real example, but it doesn't matter.

Now...

In screenshot 1, I think this behavior is correct. I see the woman holding the baby VT2. Even though VT2 has a track matte, the matte isn't over VT2 at that point.

In screenshot 2, this is where the behaviour seems odd. I now see the baby on the blanket (which is VT1) with VT3 text superimposed. VT2 is completely missing. FWIW, I can hear the Audio from track 2. If I move VT1 out of the way, I get just VT3 text over a black screen.

In screenshot 3, I changed the opacity of VT3, just to see what would happen. Interestingly, if you look closely you can see very faintly part of VT2 in the matte'd area.

Not sure what all of this means...

Attachments:

2009-10-03_134243.png (368.5 K)

2009-10-03_132550.png (344.8 K)

2009-10-03_132427.png (374.6 K)

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20. Bill Hunt,

Oct 3, 2009 12:08 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

Do not know what the "triggers" are, but it seems that this behavior/Bug has been around since at least PrE 4, my version. I get the same behavior, as you do.

Thanks for following this. If I can help in any way, don't hesitate to request. Also, if there is anything in particular, that I can test on PrE 4 for you, just let me know.

Hunt

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21. Ed.Macke,

Oct 3, 2009 12:15 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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..And finally, here I've tried to reduce the Track Matte to the simplest possible.

In my existing project, I deleted everything in except a clip on VT1 and a matte on VT2. Still, no joy.

You'll notice the thumbnail is correct (a circle of VT1 on a black background) while the monitor isn't. Clearly, instead of PRE using the matte to determine what video "shows through", it just displays the matte.

Screenshot 2 is the same clip with a similar track matte, created in a new project.

It works. Even non-rendered.

ARRRRRGH!

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2009-10-03_141300.png (95.7 K)

2009-10-03_140757.png (82.4 K)

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22. Bill Hunt,

Oct 3, 2009 2:44 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Though I have only tested with material on both VT 1 & 2, with the Track Matte on VT 3, your experience is just what I encounter. On a new Project, things are fine and work as they should. On an older Project, it does not work.

Now, I'd love to find out what constitutes an "older Project." There has got to be a clue on this someplace.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Good luck sleuthing,

Hunt

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23. Ed.Macke,

Oct 5, 2009 7:22 AM in reply to Bill Hunt

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Yeah, I'm not sure how much more sleuthing I can do.

I was hoping that systematically deleting each clip in my "old" project would yield a smoking gun, i.e. when I deleted a particular effect the track matte would suddenly start working.

But no such luck. In my "old" project, even when everything was gone except the track matte stuff, it still didn't work.

To me, this seems to indicate some sort of problem with the project itself, but after opening the PREL in an XML editor and looking at the sheer volume of info, that seems like it'd be finding a needle in a haystack.

Not really sure what else I can do at this point except live with the problem

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24. Bill Hunt,

Oct 5, 2009 7:28 AM in reply to Ed.Macke

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Ed,

I've been thinking about this issue, and am wondering if Rendering might play a role in this. In my older "test" Project, I had done several Renders for Effects and Keyframing along the way. When I get a moment, I'll create a new test Project, and apply Track Matte to part of it. I'll then see if I can add Track Matte to another. If so, I will then Render and attempt to add Track Matte Keying afterwards. Just a guess, but I suspect that after a Render, I will get what we are both getting now.

I'll test and report,

Hunt

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25. Ed.Macke,

Oct 5, 2009 7:43 AM in reply to Bill Hunt

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I, too, have been racking my (relatively limited PRE) brain trying to figure out the root cause and nothing makes sense. It really seems to be an issue where it works, then something is done, and then it doesn't work from then on. But what that "something" is...?!?!?

From what I've seen, rendering hasn't made a difference in getting the track matte to work, but I haven't tried to see if rendering was the actual trigger. Interesting theory...!

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26. sushiyum17,

May 11, 2010 1:24 PM in reply to Ed.Macke

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The first pic, Mosaic 1, shows selectively mosaic effects from AOS3-2 matte.

One second later, Mosaic 2, this AOS3-2 matte is no longer controlling.

Hope you can see something here.

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27. Bill Hunt,

May 11, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to sushiyum17

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Yes, I saw the screen-caps in the PrPro forum thread, and actually thought about this one, though it's in the PrE forum.

Now, with my PrPro 2.0, I use Track Matte Keying quite often and will normally have 2 - 3 in the same Project, one of which was a Project that had been edited on for months, with no issues.

However, in PrE 4.0, I confirmed Ed's observation - if one does this very early on, things are fine. If the Project has been edited on for some time, things do not work, as they should.

I'm trying some tests now, but just do not see an issue.

Good luck,

Hunt

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