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Why provide fonts that can't be used??

Jun 29, 2009 1:11 PM

Adobe provided a huge list of fonts in InDesign CS4, but several are not able to be embedded when used because of licensing restrictions.

 

Why did Adobe, in its infinite wisdom, provide fonts that can't be reproduced on the page?

 

Along that same thought, how do I avoid discovering at the printing phase that the font I selected cannot be embedded due to licensing restrictions?

 

I'm not trying to use fonts that are not licensed. I'm trying to use fonts that Adobe provided with my CS4 "premium" software.

 

Methinks that, like everything else these days, Adobe is just another crappy company that sells people expensive programs and fails to provide adequate support. Thanks Adobe...

 

Jason in Seattle

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2009 1:15 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Adobe does not supply fonts that have restrictions against embedding, in fact the versions they supply may be unrestricted when the same font from another vendor is not.

     

    Which specific fonts are you having a problem with?

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:16 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    How about you give us an example of a font that can't be used in this manner?

     

    All the ones I've ever tried to use work just fine.

     

    Dave

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:18 PM   in reply to Dave Saunders

    Hi Dave!

     

    Was just thinking about you yesterday and wondering where you've been.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:21 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    That font was never supplied by Adobe. Being on the list only means the font is installed in the system, not that it came as part of the suite.

     

    Peter

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:26 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    That's not an Adobe font.

     

    Bob

    Sent from my mobile phone.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:31 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    You must also be new to computers. This is not an InDesign issue.

     

    Bob

    Sent from my mobile phone.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:37 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    You haven't done anything to InDesign.

     

    Somehow you installed additional fonts in your system (either directly 

    or by installing some other program). Those fonts (which have nothing 

    to do with InDesign per se) apparently have embedding restrictions.

     

    Harbs

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:42 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    You start off with a rant AFTER I answered this in your email and have been harping on the same thing over and over.

     

    This is YOUR resposibility.

     

    Bob

    Sent from my mobile phone.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:50 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    It sounds like there's a lack of clarity here, so, let me clear up what might be some misconceptions...

     

    --The list of fonts available in InDesign is not restricted to the fonts that InDesign itself installs. Any fonts that were on your system prior to your InDesign install should also be selectable in InDesign.

     

    --Fonts can come from any number of sources, including other applications that you have installed on your system. InDesign will have access to these fonts if they are properly installed, but it cannot override any restrictions placed on them (such as the inability to embed).

     

    --It has been my experience that many fonts downloaded from "free font" sites are restricted in this very way.

     

    Is this by chance a shared machine? It's possible someone else is installing these fonts.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 2:02 PM   in reply to Harbs.

    Those fonts come with Mac OS X http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1538

     

    From a few searches online, it looks like its main use is as a support font for Thai language and that the encoding was done pretty poorly.

    Font book says the font is MEANT to be embeddable, so there should be no issue in opening the font up in something like this http://www.fontlab.com/font-converter/transtype/ and making it work.

     

    This thread http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2007/11/os-x-105-leopard-fixing-thai.html discusses the font and its problems.

     

    (Other embeddable Thai fonts: http://www.wazu.jp/gallery/Fonts_Thai.html though chances are you won't need them, these ones will embed)

     

    Unfortunately, your quickest bet is to replace the font with the closest match.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 1:58 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Short answer...You don't.

     

    Bob

    Sent from my mobile phone.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 2:01 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Ach, beaten to the Thai punch... nevermind.

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 3:06 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Edited to reflect Dov Isaacs' post below (I deleted my own bad advice, of which I have plenty...).

     

    Use the preflight panel and throw a check box next to Font types not allowed and protected fonts.

     

    I have mine filled out to not allow RGB, spot colours, non-proportional scaling, etc. I did it ages ago and now never think about it until the warnings pop up.

     

    Picture 5.png

     

     

    Picture 6.png

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 2:24 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Jason Harmon wrote:

     

    Simplest way to solve my problem: how do I restrict InDesign to recognizing only fonts which came with Adobe CS4?

    You aren't the first person to ask this. InDesign will list and use every font that is installed properly on your computer that meets a certain level of quality (and may even try to use some fonts that are lacking, which generally results in crashing) in the normal font location(s) for you operating system. You can't remove fonts from InDesign without removing them from the system in general if they are installed in this, and in theory any font that is availble to other programs is also available to ID. In addition to the standard locations, InDesign is able to use fonts installed in the private Adobe common fonts folder or the private InDesing fonts, folder, but rather than doing what you have in mind, this expands the list beyond what other programs will be able to see and use.

     

    Peter

     
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    Jun 29, 2009 2:33 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    A quick search of Thonburi brings up the following

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fonts_in_Mac_OS_X

    and

    http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2007/11/os-x-105-leopard-fixing-thai.html

     

     

    Apparently it is an apple font for the thai language and has caused problems for a few people.

    Google is your friend.

    Jay

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2009 2:51 PM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    On behalf of Adobe ...

     

    There are absolutely no fonts and never have been any fonts licensed by Adobe to our customers that do not permit embedding in a PDF (or EPS or PostScript) file. This includes any and all fonts that Adobe has ever bundled with any of its application programs, including the Creative Suites. We have also encouraged other font vendors to do likewise and not to provide the equivalent of a "Roach Motel" of fonts.

     

    Unfortunately, Adobe cannot control what other font vendors do in terms of limiting embedding rights. Adobe applications do list all fonts installed on the user's system, whether or not they allow embedding.

     

    The font you reference, Thornburi Bold, is not a font either provided by or even available from Adobe. It is Thai language font provided by Apple for the Macintosh MacOS 10.5. Note that various Apple-provided system fonts over the years have had embedding restrictions. You might want to vent your wrath at Apple for this mishagoss!

     

    One of the features of InDesign 6 is Live Preflight. This feature allows you to put together a preflight script that continually checks for issues such fonts that are not embeddable such that if you attempt to use such a font, you will get an immediate error condition. It would be prudent for you to investigate and use this feature.

     

              - Dov

     
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    Jun 30, 2009 12:59 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    The Thonburi font supplied by APPLE indeed seems to be broken. This post purports to provide a solution for the Thai font..

     

    MAC's are only supposed to be "near" perfect. 

     

    http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?p=145499

     
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    Jun 30, 2009 2:03 PM   in reply to Marvin Sable

    This would also be a good time to learn font management. You don't say how you manage fonts but I use a font manager called Font Agent Pro (Buko approved!). I removed every single font on the HD I could find except for those in the system>font folder and the Adobe required fonts (Library>Application Support>Adobe>Fonts>Reqrd). Be aware that MS Word or Office also installs a ton of fonts. Kill them or move them into a central font library. I then import into FAP and create libraries of specific type fonts. I also create client sets.

     

    FAP.jpg

     
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    Jun 30, 2009 2:39 PM   in reply to Mr. Met

    Mr. Met wrote:

     

    This would also be a good time to learn font management. You don't say how you manage fonts but I use a font manager called Font Agent Pro (Buko approved!).

    Yes you need a font manager and as Mr.Met has pointed out FAP is the best.

     
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    Jul 1, 2009 12:01 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Can you please take me off your email list

     

    Sent from my iPhone

     
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    Jul 1, 2009 12:06 PM   in reply to ipmups

    ipmups wrote:

     

    Can you please take me off your email list

     

    Sent from my iPhone

    If you are getting emails, you must have subscribed (possibly by posting in the thread, which is the default behavior of the forum). There may be a way to unsubscribe via email, but I don't know what it is. It's quite easy to visit the forum and change your preference, though.

     

    Peter

     
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    Jul 2, 2009 4:57 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    I did a posting on this topic on InDesignSecrets.com:

     

    CS4 Live Preflight Best at Checking for Font Embedding Problems

     

    When I tested in InDesign CS3 and InDesign CS4 with the Thornburi fonts, InDesign CS3 Preflight failed to detect the problem. InDesign CS4 found the problem immediately. A PDF created from both versions brought up the font embedding error message.

     

    At least in this example, CS4 Live Preflight is a lot more robust, and it detected the problem when the file was being constructed. As Dov says, this is the way to go to preflight for problems.

     
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    Jul 22, 2009 8:06 AM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    I arrived at this discussion thread because I in Flash experienced errors with Thonburi. For anyone interested - don't use Thonburi i Flash. An 'f' followed by either an 'i' or 'l' causes troubles. Apart from that -thanks for al the valuable information on font management - that was new to me most of it.

     

    regards

     
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    Jul 22, 2009 8:08 AM   in reply to glensbo

    Does Flash automatically use ligatures? Perhaps you can switch that off somewhere -- that will solve 'fi' / /'fl' / 'ff' problems.

     
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    Jul 23, 2009 7:58 AM   in reply to Jason Harmon

    Thanks [JONGWARE]

    your proposal lead to this thread somewhere else on adobe -http://livedocs.adobe.com/flex/3/langref/flash/text/engine/LigatureLev el.html

     

    This solution I will test later

     

    Regards

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 10:46 AM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Thanks for a helpful answer, Dov.  I don't recall this being an issue for me prior to CS4, but it has plagued me several times recently with fonts as ubiquitous as Arial Narrow.  So it affects much more than this random Thai font mentioned earlier, and it isn't necessarily related to fonts that crash the system.

     

    It would have been really helpful if, when we performed the upgrade from CS3 to CS4, Adobe had cautioned us by saying something like this: "Because we respect and uphold the intellectual property rights of font creators, you'll find you're no longer able to embed copyright-restricted fonts using your Adobe software. Following is a list of fonts on your computer that will be restricted, and a list of those that are fully compatible with all Adobe licensing agreements. ..."

     

    To clarify, I work within a government agency. Sometimes I'm asked to convert docs to PDF that have been prepared by others in MS Word, Excel and other programs. There is no unlicensed software, fonts or otherwise, on any of our state-managed computers. I find frequently now (with the CS4 Creative Suite) that I'm unable to edit a font chosen by others, approved through a fairly exhaustive administrative process, and printed to Acrobat.

     

    This is not to blame Adobe, as I believe I understand the licensing issue from your perspective. Yet I also know the frustration of being treated like a virtual thief when in fact I'm just doing my job, producing documents in good faith and knowing full well that the originators of those documents are licensed (as I am) to use the specified fonts. We've paid for these fonts many times over as we upgraded our software installations through the years.

     

    I suspect that the only answer in InDesign is to substitute an unrestricted font, details of which are explained earlier in this thread. But for those of you who've shared my pain and find this thread as I did, here's a solution I've discovered in editing with the full version of Acrobat 9: Using the "TouchUp Text Tool" (Tools > Advanced Editing > TouchUp Text Tool), select the uneditable text and change the font in the Properties dialog to one that passes muster with the licensing restrictions. Save. Lather, rinse, repeat. This will keep you from tearing your hair out with the thought that you must go back to change it all in the source document and create the PDF all over again (not a big deal with many docs, but a real pain with a complex form like the ones I've recently created).

     

    I suppose this is slightly off-topic in an InDesign thread, but maybe useful to some of you. For my part, anyway, the end product of an InDesign project is almost always a PDF that goes to a commercial job printer.

     

    I hope this helps someone ...

     

    Jeff

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 12:05 PM   in reply to wvperegrine

    In Indesign go to type> Find font.

     

    Here you can substitute fonts globaly as well as click more info to find out if your fonts are restricted. Musch easier than doing it in acrobat.

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 12:13 PM   in reply to wvperegrine

    i Jeff,

     

    I think that your lack of technical comprehension of what's going on "underneath the hood" is causing you to conflate technical problems with legal ones.

    I don't recall this being an issue for me prior to CS4, but it has plagued me several times recently with fonts as ubiquitous as Arial Narrow.

    Well, you're certainly free to embed Arial Narrow, so what you're being plagued by here is not so much unembeddable fonts as a lack of understanding of what's going on when a font is embedded. Forgive me if I talk down to you at all; I don't mean to, I just want to make sure that I cover all of the background without leaving anything out, or glossing over a critical technical issue. (Y'all regulars feel free to correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong.)

     

    I suspect that the only answer in InDesign is to substitute an unrestricted font, details of which are explained earlier in this thread. But for those of you who've shared my pain and find this thread as I did, here's a solution I've discovered in editing with the full version of Acrobat 9: Using the "TouchUp Text Tool" (Tools > Advanced Editing > TouchUp Text Tool), select the uneditable text and change the font in the Properties dialog to one that passes muster with the licensing restrictions. Save. Lather, rinse, repeat. This will keep you from tearing your hair out with the thought that you must go back to change it all in the source document and create the PDF all over again (not a big deal with many docs, but a real pain with a complex form like the ones I've recently created).

    When you make a PDF from InDesign with a perfectly legitimate font that permits embedding, it's possible to either a) store the entire font in the PDF, or b) store only the characters that are used from the font in the PDF. This second option is called "subsetting" - you're embedding a subset of the font, not the whole thing. "Subset fonts when percentage of characters used is less than XX%." You'll find this control in the "Advanced" section of the Export PDF dialog.So, if you use 80% of the characters in a font, and have subsetting set to 50%, then InDesign will embed the whole font.

     

    So, assuming that you're trying to edit text in a PDF in a font which was not subsetted, then why in the world would it give you that error message? My assumption is that it would be because of the encoding of that font. Many fonts, when embedded in a PDF, have their encoding changed, for reasons that I really don't completely understand myself. You can imagine, I'm sure - thing about a font with thousands of glyphs, like a Chinese font, and then make a Chinese PDF. The font will be subsetted, because there's no point in storing all ~6000 glyphs of a Chinese font in a PDF that's only a page long with a filesize of 50k. So, the PDF libraries will re-encode a subsetted version of the font, but since it's re-encoded, the font no longer matches what I have installed and is therefore not editable in Acrobat anymore. Try opening up a PDF and going to its Properties (control-D) and looking at the Fonts tab. You can have Helvetica installed on your computer, but since the PDF engine can re-encode fonts on the fly, the Helvetica in the PDF (CID encoding, or something similar) doesn't match the Helvetica on my hard drive, so I can't edit that text in Acrobat at all.

     

    I hope this helps you. For what it's worth, you should search Arial Narrow on these forums and apply the appropriate update, because I'm 99% certain that any Arial Narrow-related issues you are experiencing have nothing whatsoever to do with this particular conversation. It sounds like you're confusing fonts missing from your computer that are used in ID documents (like Arial Narrow) with fonts that can't be embedded due to mistakes in font production (like Thonburi).

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 12:42 PM   in reply to wvperegrine

    Jeff,

     

    (1)     There was absolutely no change in how InDesign (or any other Adobe application) embeds fonts between CS3 and CS4. In fact, InDesign has been very consistent in terms of what fonts it allows to be embedded in exported PDF files since InDesign 1.0!

     

    (2)     There is a signficant difference between having a "licensed font" and a font for which the license permits embedding of the font within an output file such as PDF. Furthermore, there are differences between what the physical font file indicates are embedding restrictions and what may actually be provided in writing in the font's EULA (End User License Agreement). Thus, you may be "licensed" for a font, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your license permits embedding of such a font in another file. Note that these are not as you put it Adobe licensing agreements (see 4 below).

     

    (3)     For TrueType and OpenType fonts, there are embedding privilege flags inside the font. These range from the most liberal embedding (allowing installation of such embedded fonts on a "receiving" system) to moderate restriction (editable - allows you to edit documents that have the embedded font) to further restrictive (preview and print - allows you only to display and print documents using the embedded font) to full restriction (no embedding of the font permitted). Adobe applications do honor those embedding privilege flags. Note that Type 1 fonts (in ancient times referred to as "PostScript fonts") do not have such embedding privilege flags and as such, we have no way of knowing the intent of the font supplier. Thus, such fonts are not restricted by Adobe applications in terms of embedding.

     

    (4)     Just so that you understand the context of why Adobe abides by the embedding restriction flags inside of TrueType and OpenType fonts, please understand that this wasn't Adobe's effort at protecting Adobe's or anyone else's turf. All fonts that you may license from Adobe have at least "preview and print" embedding privileges; those fonts from Adobe that are of our own design provide the more liberal "editable embedding" privileges. Adobe has been very consistent in urging other font foundries not to put unreasonable barriers to font embedding in PDF files, but we cannot control the business practices of these other foundries. In fact, it was in response to lawsuits against Adobe by some of these other font foundries that we started enforcing embedding restrictions!

     

    (5)     If all this isn't bad enough, even if a font does physically permit embedding, what really governs a font's legal status is the EULA. An OpenType or TrueType font may not physically indicate that a font may not be embedded, but if the EULA prohibits embedding, as the licensee you are legally bound to not embed such fonts in a PDF or any other type of file. Furthermore, some EULAs allow embedding, but the license provides that you must pay a royalty fee to the font foundry for each copy of the resultant PDF file that you distribute. Read your EULAs very carefully.

     

    (6)     As I and others indicated earlier in this thread, there are indeed fonts distributed with operating systems and other applications that do have licensing restrictions. Sorry, but Adobe can't do anything about that!

     

              - Dov

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 1:59 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    I found all three of these responses helpful, each in its own way. Thanks to you all for your thoughtful and thorough replies -- and for not abusing me too badly although I may have deserved it!

     

    Jeff

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 3:25 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Dov,

     

    Please tell me you don't where a suit and tie to the office. That would be just plain cruel.

     

    Toni

     

    Thanks for your reply to the initial question.

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 4:06 PM   in reply to TDToomey

    I don't wear no stink'in suit and tie to work. 

     

              - Dov

     
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    Nov 16, 2009 4:19 PM   in reply to Dov Isaacs

    Dov,

     

    Whew! That's a relief.


    T

     
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