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No offense but omg do I hate Dreamweaver

Apr 29, 2009 1:47 PM

I will start by apologizing. Everybody says that Dreamweaver is better than GoLive. You have got to be kidding. I started with Dreamweaver a million years ago and hated it then. Had it less than a month. Got GoLive and it was fast and easy. I've been a GoLiver forever, but its been going squirrely over the last six months. I knew the day was coming and today was it. I took the plunge with Dreamweaver 4 and I really hate it. GoLive was so intuitive and this has no intuition whatsoever. We got to start a revolution and get GoLive back. I'll be the first in line. Like I said, this is my first day and maybe it will get better.

 

I will give it another try.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2009 1:49 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    Why not keep using GL if it's working for you?

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 1:55 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    So you just wanted to post a forum to let people know how you feel????

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 1:56 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    Wow, I hope you simply downloaded the 30-day trial of DW and discovered it wasn't for you rather than buying it and having that realization.  Always test-drive software first...

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 1:57 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    There's nothing that would prevent you from continuing with GL.  However, I'll try to make the transition over a bit easier by alerting you to this 'unspoken' truth:

     

    If you want to use Dreamweaver, you will have to learn HTML and CSS.  Period.

     

    GoLive tolerated the 'no code view' approach.  DW will not.  However, your pages will be cleaner and will be MUCH easier to troubleshoot once you make the transition.

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 2:02 PM   in reply to samovermars

    I guess she/he just wanted to vent...  Not sure if there is a GoLive Forum, but if so, that would probably have been a more productive/sympathetic place to vent.  Seems typical that people get used to one way of doing things (or one tool in this case) and when forced to consider alternatives, their minds close down and emotions rule.  Learning something new is good for the brain.  Isn't that what this business is all about... learning and evolving?

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 2:11 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I think sometimes people think using dreamweaver is like using iWeb or frontpage or similar.  As pointed out, you have to have an understanding of html to use this app.  If you don't know how to dig into the code in code view, then you need to either educate yourself or find a non developer program.  I've been using dreamweaver since ultradev days, and it's the best app out there for novice to expert developers.  If Adobe really thought GoLive was superior, they wouldn't have bought Macromedia.  Dreamweaver is a better product overall for professional development.

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 2:16 PM   in reply to jon@cmiwebstudio

    jon@cmiwebstudio wrote:

     

    ... Dreamweaver is a better product overall for professional development.

     

    Well said!  And "better" by a very long shot.

     
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    Apr 29, 2009 5:35 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    diloretta wrote:

     

    I will stick with it because I do need to learn how to use it.

     

    That is a really good attitude. Just remember that (as mentioned) it is HTML and CSS you need to learn. DW will become a breeze once you understand that, as a tool, it helps you to write the code for Web pages while providing some visual feedback.

     

    And once you know HTML and CSS, you will not be locked into any IDE (GL, DW, Kompozer, etc...)

     

    You would probably hate my workflow .

     

    --
    Mark A. Boyd
    Keep-On-Learnin' :-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 30, 2009 10:32 PM   in reply to Mark A. Boyd

    This is almost universal in software and basically all of technology. What was great in the past is awful in the present. If you stay with Golive for ever you will be living in archaic history and you most likely will recieve complaints from your customers about glitches due to your program is so old it hasn't had a new update longer than my dogs gone without a bath. If you want to continue with life you will have to continue with the new technology. Sure it may feel hard at first HECK it may feel impossible but it's not. Just go to www.w3schools.com and read the HTML and CSS sections like your life depended on it 24/7  a month or so and you should be good to go. Let's hope your an insomiac that makes learning so much easier because you have more time to study!!  

     

    To conclude my rambling I would like to say that Golive will Godead in the near future. Why do I say that? No nothing has been said by adobe about it. I am talking hardware and OS's baby! Windows 7 is coming out soon and I am guessing a lot of publishers will require everything to be vista in the near future (more than they are already... kinda like how they phased out 2000 or ME.)  What will happen is you'll be forced to upgrade to something newer cause your old computer won't support the new software and golive won't work.   

     
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    Jun 26, 2009 9:08 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    After a year of using Dreamweaver, I still hate it.

    granted some things look better in DW, but the humble and easy functionality of golive is priceless.

    none of my golive CS sites ever converted right to dreamweaver CS3, and I never have wanted to recreate everything just to appease a software program. As a photoshop/illustrator/indesign user, i work manily in print and video, I hate dealing with all the html garbage that is asociated with DW. Adobe seemed to be fully integrated with golive in ways that dreamweaver can never match.

     
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    Jun 26, 2009 9:47 AM   in reply to moongod80

    moongod80 wrote:

     

    I hate dealing with all the html garbage that is asociated with DW.

    That "garbage", as you call it, is the basic technology of web design. Understanding it is just as vital as knowing what a baseline grid is in InDesign, or selecting the correct colour space in Photoshop.

     
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    Jun 26, 2009 2:39 PM   in reply to moongod80

    none of my golive CS sites ever converted right to dreamweaver CS3, and I never have wanted to recreate everything just to appease a software program.

     

    It's not the software you need to appease, it's the site visitor's web browser.  Malformed code accounts for most browser and DW rendering problems.

     

    I hate dealing with all the html garbage that is asociated with DW.

     

    Clearly, Dreamweaver isn't the right tool for you. If you don't build web sites for a living, you would be much happier switching to  a consumer-level product like SiteGrinder, Xara Web Designer or NetObjects Fusion.

     

     

     

    Nancy O.
    Alt-Web Design & Publishing
    Web | Graphics | Print | Media  Specialists
    www.alt-web.com/
    www.twitter.com/altweb

     
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    Jun 26, 2009 2:53 PM   in reply to moongod80

    I agree with david but I'm going to take it even further. Think of DW

    as your eyes, well without being able to understand what you read even

    a smidgen your basically blind in our world.

     
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    Jun 26, 2009 5:10 PM   in reply to Nancy O.

    Nancy and david are both totally correct! I'd like to see one of your sites

    that pleases "the site vistors web browser" that you made in golive. HTML is

    the rudimentary skill of Web Design. You need to learn it, go to

    http://www.w3schools.com maybe after some simple studying you'll change your

    opinion on what you consider "garbage" in DW.

     
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    Jun 28, 2009 12:05 AM   in reply to Andy Staab

    I come from a CAD background and use several  CAD programs autrocad, micostation, 3dstudio max etc . I use dreamweaver for building my own websites while I am getting my new business going. When I was reseaching for a programme to build web pages Dreamweaver was miles out in front because of it versatility.I still have problems but that is because I am not a power user. If you are using products professionally you can not get stuck and not use the lattest technology. History is littered with people and companies not adapting to what is new.

     

    Regards

     

    Ian Cleland

    The walking man

     
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    Jun 28, 2009 8:28 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    "Intuition" plus CSS, HTML, JS, etc. invariably leads to disaster... Incidentally do you create a mockup before launching DW?

     
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    Mar 5, 2010 1:43 PM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I am also a long time user of GL having a lot of trouble migrating to DW. I cannot make the argument that you can do things in GL that you cannot do in DWL, or that GL is not dead and you need to move on. All that is true. I just don't understand why the interface and manner of working has to be so complex and obtuse. This is the equivalent of trying to using Illustrator or Photoshop by writing code instead drawing with a pen tool and scaling and coloring items. I do not understand why the same type of visual WYSIWYG approach cannot be applied to DW when it already worked to a large extent with GL.

     
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    Mar 5, 2010 2:41 PM   in reply to theartguy4-fV5AeW

    >I do not understand why the same type of visual

    >WYSIWYG approach cannot be applied to DW

    >when it already worked to a large extent with GL.

     

    Until the most recent version, DW did have a layout tool similar to GL. These were called Layout Tables, and they were removed from CS4 because they produced results that were not worthy of a profession web design tool. It worked by creating tables with lots of row and column spans which were fragile and broke under many circumstances, the same way that GL sites did. It also made a mess which was impossible to troubleshoot.  I guess Adobe decided they wanted to focus on professional quality tools which is why they dropped layout tables and GL. I would be great if you could draw your layout and have DW create robust code, but the technology just isn't there yet. Probably some day.

     
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    Mar 5, 2010 2:59 PM   in reply to theartguy4-fV5AeW

    There are other web authoring tools you can use.  DW is pro-level software, so the learning curve for first time users is a little steep.  GoLive was pretty much aimed at designers and consumer level users (non-coders), similar in many ways to FrontPage. 

     

    I do not understand why the same type of visual WYSIWYG approach cannot be applied to DW when it already worked to a large extent with GL.

     

    The trade-off for all that ease of use was really crappy code.  If code doesn't matter to you, maybe you would be happier with a different app that puts less emphasis on code on more on Visual representation. 

     

    NetObjects Fusion

     

    Xara Web Designer

     

    iWeb

     

    BTW: there's no such thing as WYSIWYG in web design.  No matter which  product you use, close approximation is as good as it gets.  Final  results may vary quite a bit in different browsers and platforms.

     

     

    Nancy O.
    Alt-Web Design & Publishing
    Web | Graphics | Print | Media  Specialists
    http://alt-web.com/
    http://twitter.com/altweb
    http://alt-web.blogspot.com

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 7:16 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I think its been summed up that Golive was perfectly designed to do anything an artist or designer wanted to do for building a website. anything else is for techno geeks or old ladies making websites of their cats.

    Its a shame that adobe let it fade away and didn't incorporate a better transistioning into macromedia dreamweaver. I still use the old Golive interface for layout, but use the dreamweaver for the dirty work. maybe someday Adobe will sell off golive or let it live on as open source software.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 8:05 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I used to hate photoshop and now it is my everything software including my first

    choice to use for web design.

     

    Anything is hard at first, and remember, if it weren't hard to learn, no one would even need a web site designer.

     

    What works for me when I get a new software program is to take a full week and do nothing but click and try. I become "one" with it. Every program has it's own way of thinking.

     

    My first dreamweaver was years ago, I have upgraded about every second or third time and was delighted to see it become part of the full Adobe Creative Suilte. CS4 Dreamweaver is very intuitive and easy to learn.

     

    Start off by not even looking at the code (sorry guys, but code is there only when you need something big,) Dreamweaver is still a wysiwyg type program for those that hate code.

     

    Once you get confortable just with the design view, then you can explore the code portions and what is crazy easy is it does the code thing for you, so if you want to know what code to use, you design it first, then view it in the code.

     

    Of course there is so much more... I recommend buying this series of books for all the Creative Suite CS4's
    Dreamweaver CS4 Creative Classroom by Jeremy Osborn and the AGI Creative Team. (includes dvd)

     

    Get all of them and keep them nearby to learn things as you want to.

     

    Adobe Rocks!

     

    Cheri LaVelle

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 8:57 AM   in reply to cheris12345

    I started using PageMill, then found GoLive Cyberstudio. That was incredible...then Adobe bought cyberstudio and called it GoLive. We all know the history I guess...my point being I've been using DW and GoLive for a long, long time. I agree with the original poster on many levels. What Adobe failed to do, and failed miserably in my opinion, is to blend the functional aspect of Dreamweaver with the well-thought out interface of GoLive. I really expected the Macromedia buy out to turn out the ultimate web program - a combination of both GoLive and DW. Instead, they dropped GL and kept Dreamweaver as is. The interface is awful on DW in so many ways. It really is, you all may be used to it that way, but if you used GoLive at all, there is no way DW is nearly as well done as it could be.

     

    Adobe has taken the easy way out in my mind. They should have been re-writing DW to act, look, and behave like a true Adobe product. I keep hoping each revision of CS will bring more than just a few new features tacked on to the same interface from years ago.

     

    Any word on what CS5 will bring? My guess is the exact same thing as CS4 with a couple of new things stuck in there.

     

    I want a whole new program that acts like the other Adobe programs.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 9:46 AM   in reply to synterx

    "Adobe has taken the easy way out in my mind. They should have been re-writing DW to act, look, and behave like a true Adobe product. I keep hoping each revision of CS will bring more than just a few new features tacked on to the same interface from years ago."

     

     

    I think that's it in a nutshell. I am not a software engineer and I have no idea what is involved in re-writing software. Maybe there is just no money in it for Adobe. I was an Adode Certified Expert in Photoshop and Illustrator and a long time user of GL, but I can't crack any of the logic behind DW. It just seems overly confusing for an process that is suppose to be mostly a visual exercise (at least as far as the design is concerned). Can you imagine if Illustrator required you to do this to draw a red circle:

     

    <rdf:Alt>

                   <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">

                      <xmpGImg:width>256</xmpGImg:width>

                      <xmpGImg:height>256</xmpGImg:height>

                      <xmpGImg:format>JPEG</xmpGImg:format>

     

    If I don't have to do this in Illustrator or Photoshop or Indesign why would I have to do this in DW?

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 10:24 AM   in reply to theartguy4-fV5AeW

    I hate Dreamweaver too, but I hate Adobe even more and InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop................. Quark Xpress rocks!

     

    Microsoft Publisher is by far the best though if you want to become a true professional.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 11:10 AM   in reply to osgood_

    Microsoft Publisher is by far the best though if you want to become a true professional.

     

    ROFLMAO!  Good one os. 

     

    Nancy O.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 11:32 AM   in reply to Nancy O.

    Well, I knew I paid too much for InDesign CS4, I could have just used Publisher and not
    tried so hard.  <g>

     

    Cheri LaVelle

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 8:34 PM   in reply to moongod80

    Dreamweaver is an easy to use HTML and CSS tool. You may also use it for

    dynamic languages but that's a little bit more complicated and let's be

    honest when your writing dynamic code you can't rely on any WYSIWYG

    generator, not even one as good as Dreamweaver.

     

    People who are griping about missing Golive need to get a life. Yeah I said

    it, go get a life. GoLive is dead and if you honestly think that Dreamweaver

    isn't a good program than you don't have to use it. I'm sure the whole world

    would appreciate it if you stopped making webpages in GL and frontpage

    though because there hideous. I hope this will make people stop bumping up

    this thread. .

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 8:44 PM   in reply to the_missing_link

    That's a lame response. I'm saying the interface and overall workflow needs much work. For example, in the Properties panel, let's say I'm working on something and the line of code in the little box is long. Guess what? You can't expand the stupid thing wide enough to actually see all the text. You can't grab the Properties window and make it the width of your monitor and see more text. You can widen the thing 14", and still have a 2" wide text box to edit from. Why? GoLive had the ability to make the equivalent window go as wide as your monitor. Common sense interface element stuff.

     

    It's pretty obvious most people here have not used GoLive for any length of time. So, it's pretty easy to blow us old GoLive lovers off as losers, who "need to get a life". How mature of you to insult us. Maybe the original poster is talking about more than interface and workflow, but I don't care what anyone says, GoLive had a much simpler, cleaner system for essentially the same exact features. I have to use Dreamweaver now, have been for 4 years, but there isn't a day goes by that I shake my head at DW. It's just clunky and needs some new work. It just doesn't match the other Creative Suite programs in it's interface, not even close.

     

    I hope, really hope, Adobe takes CS5 seriously and does more than make a few tweaks and calls it an upgrade.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 8:55 PM   in reply to synterx

    The only thing I would point out about Dreamweaver that I find humorous but

    at the same time not very professional is that every website is off by one

    pixel. You will notice that any Webpage you make with DW will be a pixel off

    in the left corner. You can fix this easily, so it's not an issue, it's just

    funny. When I say get a life, I mean stop thinking that GoLive will come

    back. There are tens of thousands of DW fans and about IDK 20 people who

    want GL back?

    I'll be honest, I've never used the program because I started using Adobe

    software in 2007.

     

    I'm not fully understanding your complaint about the properties panel. You

    can expand almost anything as much as you want in DW. This is my last

    message to this thread because I find this conversation to be utterly

    pointless.

     
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    Mar 8, 2010 9:02 PM   in reply to the_missing_link

    AAGGHHH. My last post as well. But just to be clear, I'm not saying I want GoLive back! I simply want Dreamweaver to be updated properly to give the interface a makeover. It hasn't changed hardly at all in a decade. It doesn't fit with all the other original-Adobe programs, and really has the feeling of being slightly abandoned in that department. CSS is very confusing for many of us Designers-turned-web-guys. We really, really don't want to become full-time code experts if we don't have to. We have a ton of other programs and workflows to keep track of. We need Dreamweaver to help us do what we need, not fight us. I know Adobe could make it easier to deal with all the CSS options. Just give it a little effort to improve it in that area. Don't bring back GoLive, just have them get the original designers of GoLive and have them take what DW has and "massage" it back into a true Adobe product, not the forgotten stepchild of Macromedia.

     

    Back to work now.

     
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    Mar 9, 2010 6:32 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I was a long time GL user and did not go lightly into the switch to DW, which seemed to be foretold by the impending switch at Adobe.  I can tell you that DW seems a lot cleaner to me.  I now more fully realize that it's better to know the code than have a program write proprietary stuff in for you.  In that regard, the DW shift has made me a better web designer. 

     
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    Mar 9, 2010 8:32 AM   in reply to AlleyCatSmith

    I made the switch from Go Live to Dreamweaver last summer. There was a very steep learning curve for me. I bought David Powers Book, Dreamweaver CS4(...) and it was a great help. But it was like learning a different language or atleast dialect. I still maintain many sites that were built with GoLive and really enjoy updating the sites with the old software. Each time I go back to use GoLive I am always surprised at how much easier it really is to use.

     

    I should say that I am a developer who is much more interested in the front end / visual side of things and dealing with any code is cumbersome, though I really do enjoy the way CSS works, I think it is brilliant. I also think many of the ajax widgets that are easily embeded into a dreamweaver page (or any other html page) are totally fantastic.

     

    I think the intuitive aspect of GoLive should be considered for Dreamweaver developers. I understand that Dreamweaver is for pros and you need to know CSS and HTML to use it, but really, does that mean that it shouldn't be intuitive and much easier to use for all levels?

     

    I am happy to say that when I do use GoLive now I am looking at the code much more and have a way better understanging of what is beneath the hood of a page and for that I am grateful.

     

    All new sites I create will be created with Dreamweaver as I got through the learning curve and won't look back. For all it's shortcomings Dreamweaver is the app for me.

     
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