Agreed. I just didn’t like the way you asked the question. I just thought it didn’t show the proper respect we should when talking to each other. Maybe I read your words with more venom in them than you intended when you wrote them. Either way, I can apologise if I read shouting where none was intended.
Totally valid question, just think asked politely gets you further. Im English, I cant help it (that was an attempt at humour)
Just hang in there is all anyone can say to you.
Just dont take your frustration out on the developers, who we know are working their ***** off, same as we all do everyday.
tinylion development & design
The link works for me.
Then click on the FX logo/image. Which will bring you to this page:
If you click on the here link, it will direct you to the link I orginally posted. Then under Nightly Builds, download the Adobe Flex SDK (~166mb)
Is ok. I think I was just feeling a bit over protective. Had been having an ear full from a client all morning because we cant do 2 months work in 2 weeks.
so every one. I was stressed leave it at that. I get a bit protective of devs being shouted at lol
I'll get my coat.....
tinylion development & design
Hi look I wasn’t commenting on the QUESTION. Which is of course perfectly valid. I get it
It was just I thought the tone wasn't helpful
As ive said elsewhere, if I read your posts differently than you intended then lets just put it down to forums lack of inflection makes it sometimes easy to read the tone incorrectly.
Again, valid question.
tinylion development & design
>> Just dont take your frustration out on the developers, who we know are working their ***** off, same as we all do everyday.
After a quick courteous read of this, only total morons would disagree. However, if you think about it for a minute, there is a lot that is wrong with this line of thinking. In fact, it is quite damaging.
We are all located somewhere on the overall food chain. If our customers are frustrated and if they are taking it out on us then why should we not pass on that frustration? In turn, Adobe developers should do the same thing and pass on the same frustration up their own food chain.
In fact, Adobe developers have one great advantage over the rest of us. They have forums such as this, where they can direct their suits for some first hand evidence of the overall pain that their decisions are causing.
Sorry, but the more civil and the more polite that we are the less that the caused pain would come across and the more reason the suits would have to carry on as usual.
If I was a betting man, I would bet my last dollar that Matt never thought that he was personally being attacked nor that his own competence was ever in question. Let's ask him. Matt ?
That's a very valid point. I download the nightly builds at least twice a week and things are running more and more trouble-free. That is the best advice really for anyone waiting for the release. Albeit, it won't fix the issue with the trial period expiring. But the Adobe folks at this forum were really helpful to me and got my licence extended. Which you can, if you've got a valid flex 3 serial.
Dude, one day we'll have a beer and laugh at this. I think I just hit my PMS cycle this morning as well..
Maybe the delay is because they changed their minds and decided to go ahead and implement multithreading so we can finally take advantage of multiple cores?
If that was the case, I would be a happy coder guy.
For what it's worth, I work at a large US company that everyone on this forum has probably heard of.
We are in the process of deciding whether to use Flex or Silverlight for our platform. This is a one way decision: once made, for better or worse, that's what we'll be doing for the forseeable future.
I convinced my boss to put space in the budget for 10 FB licenses, in case we decide to go with Flex.
What I can tell you is that the delay and lack of any real news is making my case very difficult for moving forward with Flex. We have a project that we'll be starting on in the next few weeks. The guys who are backing Silverlight have a clear idea of what they'll be getting, when, and at what price.
I'm the only one backing Flex. Basically my argument is "well, there's a lot of really cool stuff coming Real Soon Now (tm)" and "oh, by the way, we've been hearing that for a long time with no update".
I'm sure you can see, this is making my position quite difficult.
Adobe may very well lose a potential long term customer, one of the largest privately held companies in the US, because of their lack of communication.
I do not understand why beta licensing is an issue as if everything else is not enough. Why could beta releases not simply "call home" to some Adobe web service which would indicate if the beta product has already been released? Even then, why should such beta version not run for some 30 days after the commercial release, in order to give everyone some time to upgrade? While these are not developer caused issues, Adobe suits are in effect hiding behind their developers by not themselves being on these front lines, where most of our frustrations would be directed towards them.
When all is said and done, these discussion are quite frank and are surprising quite civil when one considers that they are reflections from users who are facing the clients right in the trenches. There is absolutely no damage that can be caused by such discussions. If one wants gory damaging examples then all one needs to do is to google for any combinations of words such as "adobe flex air silverlight html5 ria" and even "death". Some of the most damaging writings are written by people who claim to be long time Adobe/Flas/Flex/AiR users/developers.
There also continue to be two distinct types of Adobe Flex/AiR use cases out there. One is the more traditional business application developers and the other one is in all of the different artistic areas. While Adobe seems to want to cater to both, it is quite unfortunate that it's taken a BIG BANG approach by which neither get anything until both get everything.
I for one would have rather a stable Q4/2009 release of 1/2 to 2/3 of the features, with everything else showing up even a full year later. While multi threading is important it is a perfect example of non visible functionality that could most likely get delayed with a simple "working on it" promise.
>> Adobe may very well lose a potential long term customer, one of the largest privately held companies in the US, because of their lack of communication.
Somebody higher up in project management needs to be fired, not "any time now" but right now ! Oh, but that would be too disruptive for the stock price, so the dead wood gets to inflict more damage.
I wouldn't recommend taking a guess as to what I'm thinking because you're wrong. Maybe we should be thick-skinned as a bunch of corporate lackeys, but the truth is we do take this stuff personally. Just like you take the feedback from your clients personally because you put your own time into something, we take pride when we get compliments and we feel bad when we get criticized. We're the first to admit when criticism is well-deserved, but when that criticisim comes with a harsh tone we're more likely to ignore it then take it seriously. I actually do agree with the silly saying "you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.". Polite and civil will make us more likely to want to help you. You know when it is that I have to get involved in these kinds of threads? When the tone goes out of control. When things are polite you can get faster answers from the people who actually read this all the time. And since I'm less likely to be involved in the future I can tell it like it is :-) (http://blogs.adobe.com/mchotin/archives/2010/02/flex_pm_updates.html).
I don't get how you can say there haven't been updates. We've said Early 2010 for a long time. When we made the change from Fall 2009 to Early 2010 we blogged about it and tweeted about it and we said why we were making the change and folks thought we were making the right decision.
Some companies announce specific dates, some don't. There are different reasons for doing so and it depends on how it affects your own revenue (yes, we're in this business to make money), competitive considerations, making sure that the press will actually write about something on the day we believe it will have the most impact, etc. We have a public beta available, nightly builds of the SDK available (which if you watch checkin notices and more you can see has totally wound down, indicting finality), and a ton of active community members talking about how to use said beta and SDK. I'm pretty disappointed if the release date is affecting your decision as opposed to the merit of the technology itself (which you can already demo).
>> Somebody higher up in project management needs to be fired, not "any time now" but right now ! Oh, but that would be too disruptive for the stock price, so the dead wood gets to inflict more damage.
You think we're not supposed to take this personally? Take a guess as to why I'm more likely to help someone like Glenn resolve issues (perhaps assisting him with selling to clients) over you.
And since I think this topic has been beaten to death please don't expect further Adobe response in this thread.
One thing I feel is important to not lose sight of:
The reason I'm pushing so hard for Flex instead of Silverlight is because it is my favorite development platform.
This isn't out of any loyalty to Adobe, or "fan boy" stuff. I code in everything from AVR assembly, to django, to PHP and .Net. I choose Flex purely on the technical merits, I think the team at Adobe has done a fantastic job and created the best client side platform on the market.
I'm a huge fan, and looking forward to Flex 4.
There isn't much I can do about the Flex/Silverlight debate at my company other than point out the relative strengths/weaknesses of each platform.
My earlier post was intended to communicate the real world ramifications of Adobe's chosen approach to releases. This isn't a theory thing, it is what is happening, now, at my company.
We are trying to make plans. The most common question is "When is the next version going to be released?"
This has real consequences on our decision of what platform we use to code, today. The Microsoft folks can answer that question. I can't.
I'm trying to provide some real feedback here in an attempt to help Adobe improve its process.
Sorry Matt !
If you are saying that you have personally made the decision to delay the release, which resulted in the current mess, then you have screwed up big time.
However, I could never phantom that Adobe is so flatly organized that executives suits are doing what you are doing. If so, then that would in itself explain all of the problems. If not so, then why are you so thin skinned on issues that are most likely out of your own control? Why are you jumping out to take all of the blame, instead of letting your own executive earn their upkeep? Many participants showed a lot of sympathy, based on assumptions that you "developers" are sharing our sense of frustration.
These comments are not meant to be part of some popularity contest. Unfortunately, they *are* part and parcel of everyday business realities.
Stop posting, Frustrated "Entusiast," you've cocked up the thread enough. You clearly haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Thanks for the clarity, sorry for the boo-birds. Don't really follow the dev blogs or twitter accounts for details, so I figured the main forums were the best bet.
It should be great praise to think people have enjoyed the 60 day trial so much that they want to own it right now. I know I did, but I'll suck it up and wait for the big day.
I'm just a developer, but if you work for a company we've all heard of, and
your company represents significant revenue to Adobe, and Adobe Sales is not
working with your company directly, email me off-list and I will see if we
can make that happen (no guarantees of course).
We're in it for profit so "money talks...". It probably isn't truly fair,
but most large companies have special relationships with other large
companies and additional information is available that isn't available to
the general public. It has been that way for 25 years at 5 large software
companies. Not all customers are treated the same.
Another thing that has been true for 25 years at 5 large software companies
has been the publishing of "general release timeframes". It too is also
about the money. Quite annoying to many, but that's also the nature of doing
business in the US. If you put down a specific date and miss it or change
it too often, your credibility goes out the window or someone tries to sue
you. The bigger the company, the more general its release timeframes are.
Fear of lawsuits are why you take off your shoes in US airports and why
McDonalds wastes paper publishing the nutritional breakdown of a BigMac,
just in case the diet-conscious want to add it to their meal plan.
That a couple of you haven't figured this out is kind of surprising...
I have *always* met my release dates ! Always !
However, I have *never* managed to include everything that I was hoping to be part of any one release. Each release always consisted of *two* lists. On one were the core must have items and on the other was everything else. This way everyone knows what they will get and what they might get and I have always published both.
Successful product and project management is *never* about having the best possible product. It is *always* about setting a certain level of expectations that customers can count on. Most people will choose a lesser quality product that they need today, instead of forever waiting for that perfect one - which quite often does not even exist.
BIG BANG releases are the wrong way to go because they can quite easily get out of control. Every shop is lot better at making smaller, more manageable improvements. As far as revenue streams are concerned, there is no evidence to indicate that one would sell lot more licenses because everything comes in one big release and that users would not end up upgrading within the same time frame to a newer version that ended up being lot better through a series of smaller releases.
What is the difference between charging twice as much for an upgrade, every couple of years, instead of charging half as much, every year. In fact, if you tried it, you might find out that smaller incremental charges are lot easier for many to absorb - not only financially but technically as well. Instead of having to learn a new way of life, for most people, it is lot easier to evolve in smaller incremental steps.
That a couple of you haven't figured this out is kind of surprising...
Corridors of power: "Doh! why didn't we think of all that?"
Write that down - "Don't miss release dates".
Write that down - "Forget about the best possible product"
Write that down - "No big bangs"
Write that down - "Charge less, release more"
OK, now file under "WPB".
You are playing quite loosely with the truth of what was said.
>> Write that down - "Don't miss release dates".
Especially not when you are the only one who determines your own deliverables.
>> Write that down - "Forget about the best possible product"
>> Write that down - "No big bangs"
Betting other people's farms is quite irresponsible.
>> Write that down - "Charge less, release more"
You got that wrong because I said ... Charge less, charge more often !!!
>> OK, now file under "WPB".
Web Project Bankruptcy ?!?
Dear Frustrated Entusiast
I'd like to begin by saying that I am just another developer like you who makes a living developing Flex and Flash projects for a living. I'm not sure why you feel you need to rip Matt specifically about the release date of Flash Builder 4. You can use the existing beta from labs and you can use the nightly release SDK or you can use Flex Builder 3 and the Flex 3 SDK. Nothing is stopping you from using any of those items. If you take a look back at what was available late-summer of 2009 in terms of SDK functionality and quality, you too would understand the need for holding off the release until the team got a few of the major issues taken care of - especially those involving mixing of mx components and spark components. Back in late summer it was a complete nightmare to work with Flex 4 SDK, every time you turned around you were spending hours working around idiosyncrasies. Adobe heard the development community and took a few extra months to get some of these issues worked out. The end result is a much more robust and far more stable system.
If you read between the lines, Matt already told you a significant amount of information. SDK has wound down and has been finalized, suggestion that it should be reasonably safe to buy Flash Builder 3 hinting you would be within the free upgrade window. Emphasis on very very very soon. Stating that this release will be 23 months from Flex Builder 3 release. Start doing the math. Free upgrade window is usually < 4 weeks. Since the thread has run into its second week, I'd hazard to guess that the release will be within the next 3 weeks. Corporate rules prohibit him from stating exact dates so there is no reason to continue crapping on him.
The only thing that you accomplish by screaming and yelling the way you are is to alienate yourself from the dev team. I'll be the first to say I'm far from perfect and I've blown my top at least once on a topic I was extremely passionate about as well. Honestly, while you may feel justified today, wait a week or two and look back and see what a horses *** you were at the time. Unfortunately it's hard to undo damage done. And if you plan to continue to develop in Flex, it's probably a better idea to be on friendly terms then to alienate yourself from the team.
Mark R. Jonkman
I think these statements are generally correct, and Adobe and all the major
companies I've worked for act along these lines. Except for BIG BANG
releases. They are not always the wrong way, otherwise Windows would still
be 16-bit and we'd still be using far heap pointers.
In fact, there are exceptions to every rule and money, time and resources
factor heavily. The larger companies generally can't move as fast as the
small ones so shorter major release cycles generally don't happen.
Otherwise there would have been a Windows 99.
Maybe there is no exception to the rule that there are always people who
think the world is always black-or-white and don't know to treat people with
This thread has drifted quite a bit from the original question which I feel was answered as best as it could.
For me the release will only result in 1 change, and that is a reduction in my bank balance. When I get out of bed the morning after release my day will only differ due to the time it takes to install a shiny new copy of FB 4 , I won't need to worry about my code as I did the right thing kept up to date with all those annoying changes that occur during the beta life cycle.
I know 1 big thing and that is I placed my trust in Adobe with the FB3 beta, that trust resulted in one of the best photo-imaging products available online and increased the clients turnover by 3000% in the first few months after release.
So I continue to place my trust in Adobe and the great group of guys that have put the effort in to make my life easier.
Matt, Alex, Peter, Ryan, Chet, Corey, Sunil, Shongrunden, Jason, Mayank, Gaurav and Vera who has peeked over the fence to be part of our world and offer her voice, these are the people that make the frustration all worth while and since this thread has gone totally of topic I may as well use it to offer my thanks to this group rather than wasting effort bagging out the good guys.
So.... don't want to know about NasDAQ, not interested in SEO ( since when did Ferrari Dino change from a classic sports car into a steriod boy humping a silicon bimbo, so much for search engine optimisation), Not interested in how many point releases there will or won't be, I just want to see a product I enjoy using continue to improve the way it has been.
Mama always said "Don't feed the troll..."
For I believe the troll is dancing under the silver light casted by the blue moon...
Flex 4 will be out when it's out. Beta is available, and SDK nightly builds are always there...
I think I read somewhere that charting is now available free with SDK?
like O M G!
I would've never picked up RIA development or ActionScript AT ALL if everything was still done in Flash CS4. That's like programming in MS paint!
Flex has opened the door and INTRODUCED me to programming in general...and I'm digging it.
My poor little thread has been beaten to a pulp
Matt, thanks for your replies and, more importantly, your patience. Just so you know, my original question wasn't intended to been seen in a negative light by you guys, I appreciate what you guys do and the amount of work you do. Flex/Flash builder is, in my opinion, the best environment for ActionScript 3.0 programming available, and I love working with it.
Some frustration has been caused though, not because of a lack of information from Adobe, but because the new technology ( new FLA file format and iPhone related goodies etc ) were demonstrated too early. Imagine being told, as a child, that you are getting a really cool present from Santa on Christmas day, then the day before Christmas you are told Christmas is canceled and you'll have to wait another year for your cool present. That's pretty much how a lot of us programmers/developers end up feeling when new technology is demonstrated too soon before it's released.
This tread has gone completely off-topic so I thought I would post that while I was here, not in order to slam Adobe or yourself, but in an attempt to highlight one possible reason why this thread has headed in such a negative direction.
Anyway, enough said. Thanks again.
I'm so thrilled to see Flash Builder 4 hit release and using it for all my clients going forward!! And I would much rather have it release, "when its ready" and not a moment sooner because i rely on developing in this IDE as my primary source of income.
Thanks for the feedback Adobe Devs, it was the wink i was hoping for.
I certainly understand the frustration when we show stuff that you can't play with. And I don't mind people asking when something will release though we try to keep that information out there to the best of our ability. And of course we feel bad when we show something that we think will be available soon and then due to whatever reason (like realizing we have more work to do) don't get it out there. As others say, we'd rather put out the right product late than the wrong one on-time. I think there are plenty of folks who would point to a previous release that we've done (not of Flex) where it took a long time to gain back some credibility after we released too early (and had to do 2 dot releases just to get back to functional).
So we'll all take a deep breath and move on. And I guess I'd just ask that everyone make sure their credit cards have room on them pretty soon
Thanks for the response, I'd love to have an Adobe sales person help me out.
I'm not sure what you consider "significant revenue", but I know that at least 10 FB developer licenses are in the budget for this year, and it would be a great "foot in the door" for Live Cycle Data services etc...
My personal email is claytongulick at yahoo dot com, we can chat off forum if you like.
Can we drop this already?
I did reply to you about my comment. And took it on that I may have miss read you.
No need to keep this subject live now I hope
(sorry I didnt catch your name)
tinylion development & design
As a "suit" and small CEO who works with global CEOs and CFOs, I'd like to give the "suit" view… and we pay full ticket for all our Adobe software.
Release dates matter to Wall Street… OMG release dates slipping… sell, sell, sell…
"Suits" NEVER want rushed software bugs to make them look bad to their customers. Law suits are bad suits. Rushing to meet release dates NEVER makes software better. Getting lots of programs to work well together takes lots of time and effort. When it finally gets to us, we need it to work smoothly as a system. "Suits" suspect that programmers don't know the current version of the software as well as they should anyway.
As a CEO "suit", you want the system to MAKE YOU MONEY, make customers happy, work well, save you time, and be supported well on all major hardware. All the tools need to work smoothly as a system, not a rough patchwork.
I just paid for 55 hours ($5,500) of programmer time to get the newest version of wxWidgets compiled, tested, and reviewed on only Snow Leopard. wxWidgets is great open source software. Customer had to have it done. Very costly. Think how much faster and better Flex, Flash, Dreamweaver, and AIR could have done the same job on more hardware for less money.
Adobe's competitive advantage to my company jumps out when I imagine that I couldn't use Adobe for a major project, but my competitors could.
Even when "forced" to deploy using other systems, we always prototype using Adobe tools. How quickly can you use Flex, Flash, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, AIR, … to mockup, build and refine services for customers? We get Adobe's QA, testing, security, browser compatibility, backward compatibility, … all those costs shared by thousands of Adobe customers. Return On Investment using Adobe is compelling to "suits".
Release dates don't matter to "suits" when PROFITS are on the line.
Matt, I'm impressed with how well you've represented Adobe AND helped customers like me in the forums. Hard to do when dealing with very frustrated/frustrating customers. Good job. Adobe hides mind-bending complexity behind a quick and easy system. Makes us look great to our customers. Thanks.
Thanks for the updates Matt, The have helped me plan work for my staff and provide answers to customers who are anxiously awaiting our new product. I'm a licensed engineer, not a programmer, and we are just starting out with our first flex product and your updates have helped me decide to wait patiently until flex builder 4 is released. I can have my guys work on something else for the time being, instead of starting now with Flex 3 and then being outdated "very, very soon" as you say. . We are also deciding whether to hire our own employee or outsource it to an expert, and this forum has been a real eye opener for the varied type of people out there who are programmers. As a type-A person, I can relate to the passion in this thread, but I don't understand the need for some people (not you of course) to make it so personal - I don't think it serves any purpose. I'm just trying to feed my family and put food on the table best I can.
Our employees have contacted adobe 2 or 3 times using various methods and have had varied success. I know I filled out a online form for information and nobody ever called me, but I think my co-worked had good luck calling one day. So, for example, when we have a specific question like; there is some real confusion on our part on what is happening with the charting and what exactly we need to buy. As a general rule of thumb, what is the appropriate avenue for us to direct these type of questions? Forums? Tech Hotline? Or should all technical questions wait until 4.0 is released and then be asked.
I hope this posting is appropriate for this thread. If not I apologize.
Thanks. Have a nice day. I hope to read more updates from everybody.
Wow. Just took the time to actually read this thread. I must say as a person who started with BASIC programming on an HP 2100 mainframe (actually assembly language but wow was that a drag and time-consuming) that I'm amazed at how folks complain about the lack of immediate gratification. IMHO, it's called beta for a reason. One certainly doesn't develop in a beta tool until it's ready for release. We all whine when the company doesn't provide us with early alphas so we can provide feedback and then we turn around and bite them in the back. Certainly you wouldn't develop apps for a client in a beta, as much as it sounds like the features will be better than the currently available release.
I'm sincere; which capabilities are promised that are precluded by a little more work using Flex 3. If it's too heavy re: components, everyone here certainly has the talent and skills to program in Flash and keep filesize down. If it's the text layout framework, things can still look pretty nice with regular fonts. Maybe I'm missing the 'killer-app' portion of the new release, though I download every nightly build and certainly appreciate the seperation of logic, rsls and enhanced ease of use. But I think I can still create nice apps with just hard work, experience, and, I hope, a little talent in the old version of Flex or Flash (I'm sure my colleagues would disagree with my opinion of my skills).
Yes, I know it's been promised for a long time. I'm also sure Adobe hadn't planned to lay off the hundreds of folks that have been released during this time either. But really. Are your waiting apps so dependent on the new capabilities of Flex 4 that you have no future unless it's released quickly? Aren't the programming concepts pretty similar so you could accomplish work in most tools that have a similar syntax?
Oh my, I don't usually get upset over public posts for a variety of reasons, but I went to 360|Flex, saw some of the amazing things happening with an obviously-soon-to-be-released version of the Flash platform and I'm just happy to have access to tools anywhere near their sophistication. And besides, didn't Matt promise that it would be released Friday night. Matt, please look into that possibility. I'm starting to feel like I need this now, tonight, by Saturday at the latest.
Off soapbox - thanks Matt for all your contributions over the years. I've learned a lot from your posts plus many others in the Flex/AIR community, including the contributors to this forum.
Now you can slam me for a week or two instead of the dev team.
Great post John.
It used to be that workmen blamed their tools.
In the age of Web 2.0 they move to the next level of blaming the toolmakers.
Of course, something that hasn't changed is that most people just get on with what they have.
As a general rule of thumb, what is the appropriate avenue for us to direct these type of questions? Forums? Tech Hotline?
For a beta product the proper avenue is the forums usually, though when it comes to pricing, which product has what features etc, we usually can't share that info because we often don't announce that stuff in advance. Once a product is released, the customer service folks should have been briefed and can answer those questions (as it gets technical you'd move to support). So you use the forums and you try to get lucky on an informed person answering, or you use the support hotlines and you hope you get through We're working on making the hotlines much better though.
One more resource to add, the bug database: https://bugs.adobe.com/flex/. Throughout the Beta release, we've got great feedback and error reporting from our users through the bug reporting process as well as the forum. However, it's not the place to ask technical questions like "What's the best way to implement X?". Hope that helps.
Jason San Jose
Software Engineer, Flash Builder
>So you use the forums and you try to get lucky on an informed person >answering, or you use the support hotlines and you hope you get through
and thanking every one of them.
This stuff seems harder than it ought to be.
Naming convention wording or it appears to me
lack of a quickly understood framework is a part of it.
When I compare what I am doing in Flex with whats coming out of Html5
The relative simplicity and power of commands and ease of use are really stunning.
Of course flex is now there and everywhere.
But really, this stuff is harder than it needs to be.
The variety and size of the command structure works against easy familiarity. As a programmer I almost feel like a master file clerk
to search the papers for just the thing that does this.
I am used to putting the Manual on the self one day and thereafter only rarely accessing it, and thinking out the solution rather than searching it out.
My 2 cents after learning a dozen languages.
Has anybody at Adobe ever thought about using YOUR own industry
leading products with which to PRECISELY dispense such information to
everyone who wants it?
Travelling the world on bus and train tours is fun, lots of fun. You
even get to highly impress the small number of people that you come in
touch with. However, all of it is at the expense of the masses who
are getting sick and tired keeping their fingers crossed and hoping to
luck into talking to somebody who will know what they are talking
Before all of you good do-ers jump all over me, think about it for a
minute. Is it normal to have even one person on this forum who seems
to be involved, who works for a household name company and yet has no
idea and is in this forum leaving his email address just to get in
touch with someone just so an Adobe sales rep can sell them something.
ADOBE - EAT YOURSELF WHAT YOU COOK FOR THE REST OF US !
This thread is becoming something like a poor version of a Godfather Movie, I try to leave but I keep being drawn back in.
As I enter my 4th decade of being involved in I.T. in one form or another I see a change in the general development world that concerns me nearly as much as when Microsoft through VisualBasic decided to turned janitors into point and click developers. Has our world moved into this century as per everywhere else where the individual takes no responsibility ?. Is it so hard to consider that we as individuals need to put more effort into our owning desire to learn something ?
Webinars, social networks, video training, tutorials we have more information than we need available at our finger tips to get the job done. On top of all that software vendors provide support lines etc... these maybe at cost but just like the rest of us software vendors are not in the market place in an effort to provide altruistic services.
@ Dan, this is not a dig but I am not sure why you find flex such a struggle, I moved from Delphi after 2 decades of pascal programming and found that in a very short period of time I could produce highly exceptable code with flex, the transition to flex was so much smoother and easier than my previous efforts at java/C#, the only real hiccup was getting over the hump caused by the 'sandbox' this concept of being restricted by security concerns had me swimming a little against the tide.
@Frustrated, I guess all I can say to you is what can one expect for someone that can't spell enthusiast - Adobe use their own technology everywhere they also use technology from others if that is the efficient way to, have you had much experience with the internet ?.
Adobe staff offer their knowledge for free through blogs, webinars, online tutorials and forums, I am sure a lot of this is done in their own time and for this I appreciate the effort.
As for actual human interaction, normal people, intelligent people crave this, roadshows conferences etc are how we get to connect in a way that is normal among humans. Adobe try to cover as many of those that enjoy the 'real' experience but it is like any other part of a business, restricted by how marketing analysts perceive its value. Conferences are the true networking interface, unlike internet social networking, its hard to hide behind a curtain of anonymity.
@ Dan, this is not a dig but I am not sure why you find flex such a struggle,
No offense taken. We live in a world of objectivity or should.
I think its the schedule I have been on.
I am Coming from a proceedural background, where command sets run 400 or 500,
and in six months you are thinking in it and writing with little use of reference materials.
I the last year or so I have gone through Flex 3, Cairngorm when it was in style, then Mate
before I discovered I really needed to be in Flex 4, and oh by the way the php 4 isn't going to cut it.
Time to learn Php 5 while you are at it. Did I forget to mention Actionscript?
... and a small orientation to OOD for a topping.
I may be a lot happier now that I have a small live client and can start producing something useful.
The stuff I did get to do in FB3 was pretty cool I must admit.
But the point remains the same.
The variety and size of the object command set seems to prohibit that type of familiarity you get in the client server world.
The thought process is different. Its "find the right part" for the most part. File Clerk more than creative logic.
I also find the nomenclature/naming convention a bit obtuse to be frank.
The power and simplicity of some of the upcoming competition looks like fresh air to a certain extent.
And if they ever get the universal reach of Flash, Flash could be in trouble.
Re the thread: its nice to have a place to kibbitz, important input into the process I think.
Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
In my opinion, ECMA Script is one of the most powerful and flexible languages out there. It is a functional language that can dress up like an OO language when needed.
Adobe is one of the primary drivers behind ECMA Script, and Actionscript is the showcase for the future of ECMA Script.
With AS3 Adobe has reached an amazing balance between two camps of development theory: the ability to use strict, strongly typed OO programming style while also maintaing the powerful functional roots of ECMA Script. Add E4X into the mix, and you have a language that is far and away the simplest, most powerful client side language on the market.
If I could wish for any two different things about AS3, they would be:
1) Classes should default to dynamic and require a "strict" keyword instead of the opposite. This is purely a stylistic preference, but I find myself frequently having to derive or proxy a non-dynamic class in order to make it dynamic. I would prefer that everything be dynamic unless explicitly marked otherwise.