Adobe Community: Working in Photoshop Gray to Indesign to PDF help..

gator soup

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Working in Photoshop Gray to Indesign to PDF help..

Apr 9, 2010 7:49 PM

Hi,

CAN SOMEONE HELP ME save out a PDF in the final tagged color space: Gray Dot Gain 20%

I am saving my Photoshop .tif files with embedded profile: Gray Dot Gain 20%

My InDesign Working CMYK is: US Web Coated SWOP v2

I place my .tif files in InDesign.

What is confusing me is InDesign's no Gray settings.

My first Question is TARGETING my PDF to the desired print space: Gray Dot Gain 20% — THERE IS NO GRAY CONVERSION OPTION!

As my InDesign book is in Working CMYK, and my placed .tif files are in Gray Dot Gain 20% — I have determined I will need to Convert to my print profile in Acrobat — but what would be the best Adobe PDF Preset setting to get my tagged CMYK and tagged Gray into a PDF so I can Convert Colors to Dot Gain 20% in Acrobat?

No Gray support in In Design has be baffled — I am thinking I should avoid Gray all together and just feed InDesign RGB to be sure InDesign passes through my .tiff profile to Acrobat...

5707 Views 21 Replies Latest reply: Rob Day, Sep 24, 2010 9:56 AM

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1. Petteri_Paananen,

Apr 10, 2010 2:45 AM in reply to gator soup

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I have never had any problems with greyscale images, I create them in photoshop and embedd grey icc-profile into them while saving. Then I place them to Indesign and when I export PDF, I choose a CMYK profile that matches to paper that printer is going to use.

As a Color Conversion, you may use either No Conversion or Convert To Destination (preserve numbers), just don´t include profiles to PDF. They may cause some unwanted re-conversions later in the process...

Here´s few PDF samples made from same indd (1 page with one 20% dot gain photo placed)

Export with no color conversions:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/133381/noConv.pdf

Export with colors converted to destination profile (Fogra Coated), profiles not included
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/133381/ConvToDest.pdf

Export Export with colors converted to destination profile (Fogra Coated), profiles included
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/133381/ConvToDestWithProf.pdf

Last one is risky... you can check those out yourself by opening them to Acrobat and using Output Preview. With first and second PDF, if you hide black channel, whole image disappears, meaning it will be printed to black plate only.

With last one, image will be converted to CMYK if you use any other simulation profile than one has been used as Destination profile. It means that there is a risk that your image will be converted to CMYK image in RIP.

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2. Peter Spier,

Apr 10, 2010 6:05 AM in reply to gator soup

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You are not alone in your frustration. Gray profile support is a longstanding request for many users.

InDesign treats grayscale images as being on the K plate of the CMYK working space. It's possible to create a custom CMYK gray space, and that has been discussed here a number of times. In all honesty I've never really completely understood how this is done (involves assigning curves in Photoshop, if I remember), and I've never tried to do it. Instead I use a gray profile approriate to the stock on which the job will be printed (and 20% dot gain is a good choice for coated stock), then use a similarly approrpiate CMYK working space in ID. Like Petteri, I've never been unhappy with the results, but your mileage may vary.

It is possible to convert your CMYK PDF to Dot Gain 20% in Acrobat, but I was not happy with the appearance on screen the last time I tried it ( I think I lost my 100% K levels), but it may be that the porblem came from a lack of complete understanding of what I was doing in Acrobat.

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3. gator soup,

Apr 10, 2010 9:57 AM in reply to Petteri_Paananen

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Thanks, I read Petteri's and Peter's replies very carefully.

InDesign treats grayscale images as being on the K plate of the CMYK working space.

That is enlightening, yet I do not understand what it means (K v. Dot Gain 20%) — I simply want a PDF properly Converted and tagged with the "Gray Dot Gain 20%" ICC profile.

Apparently InDesign CS4 cannot pass through Gray Dot Gain 20% properly tagged as such?
And I will need to follow through Converting to my target print space inside Acrobat.

I say this because, in my InDesign Export PDF process, I choose to do No Color Conversions, Embed and Preserve Profiles — then I use Acrobat Output Preview> Object Inspector to verify the profiles.

My first tagged Gray Dot Gain 20% image reads "DeviceCMYK" in Object Inspector.
The remaining 50 or so tagged Gray Dot Gain 20% images read "DeviceGray".
This inconsistancy is really weird because my images are all the same tagged Gray Dot Gain 20% going into InDesign.

All my text in my 100-page book reads as "DeviceCMYK" in Object Inspector.

I cannot follow that logic (what happened to my profiles and why is my top image now reading as untagged CMYK?).

If I then use Acrobat Convert Colors "Convert to Profile> Dot Gain 20%> Embed profile — then Acrobat's Object Inspector reads all my images and text as "ICCBasedGray Dot Gain 20%" as desired.

with greyscale images, I create them in photoshop and embedd grey icc-profile into them while saving. Then I place them to Indesign and when I export PDF, I choose a CMYK profile

A PDF Conversion would always need to be based on a Source Profile(s) — the mystery is — if InDesign's Export PDF process is not tagging my images properly, then HOW can it make a proper follow-up Conversion to my print space?

The only hope I have of making sense of this is if I can follow the color management chain and end up in the desired tagged print space.

+++++++

In my four previous books, I've Placed my tagged Gray Dot Gain 20% images in InDesign, Exported to PDF to No Color Conversions, Embed and Preserve Profiles, and handed off CMYK PDFs (apparently based on my Working CMYK profile).

Those printed beautifully, but I am trying to learn and it makes sense I could Convert my PDF to the 100% print space.

+++++++

It is possible to convert your CMYK PDF to Dot Gain 20% in Acrobat, but I was not happy with the appearance on screen the last time I tried it ( I think I lost my 100% K levels)

That sounds like Acrobat was basing the Conversion on a wrong Source Profile (which is my concern for not being able to verify the profiles it is spitting out in my PDF tests).

It seems if I Converted my InDesign book to sRGB, and Converted all my Gray images to sRGB — that InDesign could Export a tagged sRGB PDF that Acrobat could Convert to Gray Dot Gain 20% (and I could follow the chain).

Then again, I wish I knew what I was doing here...

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4. Peter Spier,

Apr 10, 2010 10:29 AM in reply to gator soup

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In the CMYK working space, K is the Black plate. ID treats grayscale coming in as if it is in the current CMYK working space and as if the file has no data in C, M, or Y channels, so all of the grayscale numbers you have are preserved, but the gray profile is not. Instead, the gray numbers are now tagged as the current CMYK space.

If the numbers were correct coming in, and you export without doing another conversion, the numbers will remain correct in the exported PDF. My impression, and as I said before I don't claim to understand color conversion in Acrobat 100%, is that if you do a conversion in Acrobat, your images will print lighter as the conversion factors in the dot gain to achieve the appearance of the numbers you started with, which I think should already be asjusted for the dot gain. Maybe someone else can do a better job on this and enlighten us both.

So for me, at least, I don't see a need to have the PDF tagged as Dot Gain 20%, or anything else for that matter. My presumption is that the images were properly prepared in Photoshop, and if the numbers are passed through on the K plate, it makes no difference what the profile is at output since they will not have changed. You can see this for yourself by checking the gray values in photoshop, then looking at the separations preview in ID, and at the Output Preview in Acrobat.

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5. gator soup,

Apr 10, 2010 11:16 AM in reply to gator soup

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Here's what's throwing me off.

I open my InDesign Exported CMYK PDF in Acrobat and my Gray images are displaying light.

My Acrobat Preferences Working Gray is set to Dot Gain 20% — the monitor error leads me to conclude my Gray images are mis-tagged as CMYK for all practical purposes (or they would display correctly).

I can prove my suspicions by going into Acrobat> Output Preview> Simulation Profile (set to InDesign Working CMYK) my Gray images to not change (they remain light).

I change Simulation Profile to Dot Gain 20% and my images snap back to match Photoshop.

+++++++

If I then Acrobat> Convert Colors> Dot Gain 20% (Embed) — Acrobat images match Photoshop and Acrobat Object Inspector confirms all text/images are embedded "ICCBasedGray Dot Gain 20%".

It appears Acrobat is useful enough to Convert InDesign Gray (it Acrobat's Working Gray happens to match the Mystery gray in InDesign's CMYK PDF)...

+++++++

Peter, I saw your post after posting that.

I can get the "numbers" correct in ProPhoto RGB going into Photoshop — for example — but Photoshop cannot display, convert or print them correctly UNTIL Photoshop is given meaning to the numbers through an ICC profile (to Convert the numbers to the display and printing spaces) — however, if the numbers go to a ProPhoto RGB device the color will proof correctly (not that there are any ProPhoto RGB devices, which is why I used it as an extreme example).

But I am following you totally now:

so all of the grayscale numbers you have are preserved, but the gray profile is not. Instead, the gray numbers are now tagged as the current CMYK space.

Properly tagging files is very useful when someone downstream needs to proof the 'color' on screen in a color managed application like Acrobat or Photoshop or Convert them — for example — once I got my InDesign PDF tagged with the Photoshop gray Dot Gain 20% profile, it displayed properly in Acrobat just as it displayed in Photoshop.

I am just trying to wrap my pea brain around what's going on...

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6. Rob Day,

Apr 11, 2010 5:04 AM in reply to gator soup

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In Photoshop a grayscale's grayscale profile has no effect on the output values, so if you fill a grayscale doc with 50%, 50% gets output whether the profile is 20% dot gain or 30% dot gain. The profile does effect the conversion back to RGB for display or if you print to an RGB driven printer (the preview of 30% dot gain is darker than 20%) .

ID doesn't have a grayscale space and it also ignores incoming grayscale profiles. As Peter mentioned grayscales are generally color managed as if they are on the black plate of CMYK, which makes sense because, unless there is a 5th plate on the press, that's where they have to go. So, in ID when Separation or Overprint Preview is turned on, the conversion back to RGB for display is driven by your doc's CMYK profile and not the 20% Dot Gain profile, which was used in PS. If your ID (US SWOP) CMYK profile is an accurate profile of the destination press, then the ID preview is the more accurate of the two.

If you want matching previews, you can use the US SWOP profile as the grayscale profile in Photoshop either by assigning it or making it the gray working space (Color Settings>Gray Working Space>Load...). If you assign your ID CMYK profile to the grayscale in PS, and then export using either the PDF/X1-a or PDF/X-4 presets, you should see consistent grayscale previews in the 3 apps

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7. Rob Day,

Apr 11, 2010 7:04 AM in reply to gator soup

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No Gray support in In Design has be baffled — I am thinking I should avoid Gray all together and just feed InDesign RGB to be sure InDesign passes through my .tiff profile to Acrobat...

If your final destination is an offset press RGB would be a problem—you would get 4-color grays.

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8. gator soup,

Apr 11, 2010 10:15 AM in reply to Rob Day

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The profile does effect the conversion back to RGB for display or if you print to an RGB driven printer (the preview of 30% dot gain is darker than 20%) .

I think that's the nutshell of my point — if — I can deliver my InDesign CMYK-Gray "Book Project" PDF with correct 'numbers' it will go to offset press correctly.

However — it will not display correctly (without soft proofing trickery) and it will not Convert to another profile correctly because the DotGain20% profile was stripped (and a CMYK profile was Applied).

That means the 'genius' downstream can't Convert my Gray TIFFs to Monitor RGB to PROOF them correctly on screen, and s/he can't Convert my Gray TIFFs to any other print space because the InDesign> ExportPDF process stripped my DotGain20% profiles and moved my Gray 'numbers' into a CMYK profile.

No Gray support in In Design has be baffled — I am thinking I should avoid Gray all together and just feed InDesign RGB to be sure InDesign passes through my .tiff profile to Acrobat...

I should have added:

...then I can use Acrobat's Convert Colors on my properly tagged RGB to Convert to my Destination Gray Dot Gain 20% profile. This produces a correctly tagged PDF that will go to offset properly, AND also preview on screen and Convert correctly downstream (if needed). It will also allow me (and my pea brain) to follow the color management chain.

I got a lot of great help in this thread, there is till some mystery due to my lack of experience outside the theory, but I am going to mark it Solved, thanks everyone.

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9. Rob Day,

Apr 11, 2010 1:16 PM in reply to gator soup

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However — it will not display correctly (without soft proofing trickery) and it will not Convert to another profile correctly because the DotGain20% profile was stripped (and a CMYK profile was Applied).

If your final destination is a CMYK offset press you can't have two different profiles color managing the black plate—50% black can't accurately get converted back to RGB for display two different ways (DotGain 20% and US SWOP Coated) because that wouldn't happen on press. ID rightfully ignores your 20% Dot Gain profile and assigns the doc's CMYK profile so that 50% grayscale is color managed the same as 0|0|0|50 CMYK. If US SWOP Coated is in fact an accurate profile of the destination press, then it should also be used as the profile for your grayscale's in PS.

That means the 'genius' downstream can't Convert my Gray TIFFs to Monitor RGB to PROOF them correctly on screen, and s/he can't Convert my Gray TIFFs to any other print space because the InDesign> ExportPDF process stripped my DotGain20% profiles and moved my Gray 'numbers' into a CMYK profile.

Why have you decided that 20% Dot Gain is the correct profile for your grayscales? If you use your CMYK profile as the grayscale space in PS then there won't be a conflict. In that case you can save as PDF/X-1a or, if you want to allow further conversions PDF/X-4—either way Acrobat's output simulation softproof will be correct.

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10. gator soup,

Apr 11, 2010 3:51 PM in reply to Rob Day

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If US SWOP Coated is in fact an accurate profile of the destination press, then it should also be used as the profile for your grayscale's in PS.

Why have you decided that 20% Dot Gain is the correct profile for your grayscales?

The book printer requested the Gray "Dot Gain 20%" destination profile and it seemed like a simple target for me to hit until I got confused with how InDesign deals with Gray Photoshop images — the inside of my client's book is all Gray, the cover is CMYK full color.

The red flag that started this thread was that Acrobat does not display my Gray correctly from InDesign's exported "CMYK" .pdf.

Thanks again to Rob, Peter and Petteri for helping me out here...

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11. Rob Day,

Apr 12, 2010 4:23 AM in reply to gator soup

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You can also create a CMYK profile, which uses a 20% dot gain curve for the black plate, and use it InDesign as your CMYK profile (Peter alluded to that in post 2), in that case ID and Acrobat's previews will match your PS 20% dot gain preview.

First generation profiles were curved based and you can still save them out of Photoshop using the legacy separation setup, which by default is 20% for the black plate. So from Photoshop it would be: Color Settings>CMYK>Custom CMYK. In the Custom CMYK dialog change the name to something like IDGrayscale20, leave the Dot Gain setting as 20%. Then save the profile (CMYK>Save CMYK...) into your profiles folder and it will be available in ID as a CMYK profile.

The legacy profile would be fine for all grayscale documents, but I would not use it for color work.

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12. gator soup,

Apr 12, 2010 10:35 AM in reply to Rob Day

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save the profile (CMYK>Save CMYK...) into your profiles folder and it will be available in ID as a CMYK profile.

What Profiles folder are you talking about?

It Saved as an .icc in 10.6.3 (OSX) User> Library> ColorSync> Profiles folder (and verified it is there).

But it is not available in InDesign CS4> Edit> Color Settings> Working Spaces> CMYK drop menu (Other is grayed out), and when I Load and navigate to the new .icc it is grayed out.

It does load in Photoshop as expected.

What might I be missing (I quit and reopened Id, logged out and reopened, Id, but still not available)...

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13. Rob Day,

Apr 12, 2010 10:59 AM in reply to gator soup

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There's an issue with 10.6.x and CS4 and profiles. You have to alias your profiles folder into your /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Color/Profiles folder. This thread has the details:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2554280#2554280

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14. gator soup,

Apr 12, 2010 12:07 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Whew!

I Aliased the new profile every which way with no show in in InDesign 6.0.4.

I finally dropped a copy of the new .icc into HD> Library> Application Support> Adobe> Color> Profiles> Recommended (and InDesign> Color Settings picked it right up).

IF I MAY ASK ONE MORE QUESTION:

Here is my screen shot of the settings — how do I confirm that my new Custom CMYK profile is exactly the same in the Black channel as Photoshop's Gray Dot Gain 20%?

I will add if I open a Photoshop RGB image> Edit> Convert to (Gray Dot Gain 20%) and then View Proof Setup: new .icc profile (there is no difference between the two in Soft Proof) so that must be the visual test.

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15. Rob Day,

Apr 12, 2010 12:58 PM in reply to gator soup

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Keep in mind all of this effects the only previews in the apps and not the output values:

You can see the curve that's used in your custom CMYK profile by choosing Dot Gain>Curves>Black

http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/Blackcurve.png

And then you can see the same curve is used when you use Dot Gain 20% by choosing Gray>Dot Gain 20% and then Gray>Custom Dot Gain

http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/gsDotgain.png

You could then screen capture the previews from PS and ID and take RGB readings to confirm the previews match:

http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/gspreviews.png

One other twist to watch out for in ID is: by default (with Overprint and Separation Preview turned off) the preview of grayscales is not color managed—they effectively preview as 2.2 gamma and your profiles have no effect. So, you have to turn on Overprint to see the 20% Dot Gain preview.

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16. gator soup,

Apr 12, 2010 1:13 PM in reply to gator soup

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COLOR MANAGEMENT CONFUSED WITH INDESIGN TERMINOLOGY

Okay, now I am trying to get my document converted over to the new CMYK profile.

First I set the new profile in Color Settings> Working CMYK

Now the question: What is the correct move in the opening dialog mismatch?
"Adjust" document to match — I have have no clue of what "Adjust" means here, but would expect to see "Convert" here.

Policy: "Preserve" — What is being preserved, numbers or appearance?

"Assign " Profile — Why would I ever want to Assign Profile in this case (CMYK-to-CMYK) unless Assign Profile wants me to select the original source profile this document was created under (not the new Working CMYK destination profile)?

Further, I assume Assign Profile it is talking about my document space, not my Placed Photoshop tagged Gray images?

Placed Content — yes I want InDesign to honor and use my embedded profiles in all Placed content.

+++++++

Sorry if this exceeds what can be provided here...I have a good grasp of how Adobe uses profiles in Photoshop, but InDesign's terminology seems unclear and very confusing to me...

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17. gator soup,

Apr 12, 2010 1:27 PM in reply to Rob Day

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One other twist to watch out for in ID is: by default (with Overprint and Separation Preview turned off) the preview of grayscales is not color managed—they effectively preview as 2.2 gamma and your profiles have no effect. So, you have to turn on Overprint to see the 20% Dot Gain preview.

Wow, that is a huge tip for me at this point!

I ran a complete test under the new Custom 20% Working CMYK profile.

Photoshop matched the InDesign> PDF> Acrobat CMYK (convert to Gray "Dot Gain 20%") images — but InDesign was still previewing the gray images a bit dark (I'm profiled to 2.2 gamma) — and that explains why!

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand how InDesign is working.

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18. Rob Day,

Apr 12, 2010 1:38 PM in reply to gator soup

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Policy: "Preserve" — What is being preserved, numbers or appearance?

Preserve refers to the CM Policy you set when the doc was created—Preserve Embedded Profiles.

"Assign " Profile — Why would I ever want to Assign Profile in this case (CMYK-to-CMYK) unless Assign Profile wants me to select the original source profile this document was created under (not the new Working CMYK destination profile)?

You do want to assign in this case—assigning the custom CMYK profile you made will change the preview of black values, which is what you want (you didn't like the US SWOP Coated preview).

Further, I assume Assign Profile it is talking about my document space, not my Placed Photoshop tagged Gray images?

Yes it's your ID document space, which is going to CM the preview of your grayscales

Placed Content — yes I want InDesign to honor and use my embedded profiles in all Placed content.

ID ignores grayscale profiles—even with Enable All Profiles. Again, the black plate can't be CM'd by two different profiles, that's why grayscale profiles get ignored and the document's CMYK profile gets assigned.

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19. Rob Day,

Apr 12, 2010 1:45 PM in reply to gator soup

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Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand how InDesign is working.

Just make sure you don't use the legacy profile for color work—make a Color Settings named something like ID Grayscale...

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20. Andrew Barrington,

Sep 24, 2010 8:18 AM in reply to gator soup

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i have just come across this thread as it was a problem i just encountered, whether its still of any use or not my solution is...

In photoshop set the colour model of the image to CMYK

Thenuse channel mixer to convert the image to monochrome and adjust the image accordingly.

(you'll notice that when you click monochrome you lose the colour depth as like when your previewing in indesign hence the need to adjust).

Once saved the image will preview and out put correctly.

All the best
Andy Barrington

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21. Rob Day,

Sep 24, 2010 9:56 AM in reply to Andrew Barrington

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Thenuse channel mixer to convert the image to monochrome and adjust the image accordingly.

You can also transfer the grayscale values directly to the black plate when you convert GS to CMYK—just set your CMYK working space to a Maximum Black Generation via Color Settings>CMYK>CustomCMYK.

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