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Panasonic TM700 1080/60p 28mbps files

Apr 28, 2010 4:28 PM

The newest panasonic camcorder, the TM700 records video at 1080/60p in an MPEG-4 format.  Can CS5 import these files, and if so, what would the logical output format be?  720/60p perhaps, or can you output 1920x1080/60hz progressive?  I believe the files have an MTS extension but since AVCHD doesn't allow 60p it's a sort of non-standard format.

 

According to camcorderinfo.com few editors will accept the Panasonic files, but the quality of the footage is significantly better than the cameras 1920x1080/60i AVCHD mode.

 

I'm wondering if you could include clips from this camcorder in a CS5 project, and if so what output resolution/framerate would make the most sense (for computer playback I imagine, I don't think Blu-Ray or AVCHD discs support 1080/60p data).

 

Seems like a great new camera feature, but it's not clear to me how you would distribute the final edited file in such a way as to take advantage of the 60hz progressive nature of the original footage.

Branched to a new discussion.
 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 29, 2010 12:32 AM   in reply to ruzun

    CS5 can easily import and edit these files, in contrast to the Panasonic DMR-BS 850 from the same company, that can't handle this material.

     

    As for export, your choices are limited, because of the non-standard format.

     
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    May 12, 2010 4:39 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    I am thinking of buying this Camera

    and note your discussions. What export options would be available

    .

    I am using CS4

    Thanks

     
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    May 17, 2010 3:04 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I have recently updated to CS5 master collection because I had the same problem with 1080 50p footage shot by HDC-sd700 or TM700.

    I was going mad by transcoding all the material in ProRes 422 HD or other suitable formats for final Cut Pro. I used ClipWarp or Aquafadas Videopier HD. I luckily solved this problem natively with Premiere Pro CS5 and Encore CS5. Here I could edit in realtime all the 1080 50p footage ,do the soundtrack ,work in PS an AE and have the timeline updated in Premiere. The final time to prepare the Blu Ray disc was very fast too. Much faster than compressor. I am sure that you won't have any problems with 60p footage too. When you export to Blu Ray you can choose 1080 30p or 60p and the desired bitrate in encore directly. I saw no difference and no loss quality from my blu ray disc to my camera footage via HDMI.

     
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    May 17, 2010 10:46 AM   in reply to ruzun

    Yes you are right . It is 1080/25 or 24p or 30p for US standards. Maybe it's a matter of compatibility with blu ray players.

     
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    May 17, 2010 4:29 PM   in reply to ruzun

    After some tests I think the best solution for delivery is to export on Blu Ray disc , I am using H.264 1080/25p at maximum quality. I can play mp4 1080/50p on my mac without any problems and I honestly cannot tell the difference betweeen the Blu Ray disc and the mp4. I think that the output to Blu Ray has some limitations due to compatibiltiy issuses. Films are usually 1080 24p-

     
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    May 17, 2010 4:41 PM   in reply to Gio Willis
    After some tests I think the best solution for delivery is to export on Blu Ray disc , I am using H.264 1080/25p at maximum quality.

     

    Which is not supported on BR, thanks to Sony. Only 24p, but no 25p. For PAL countries only 25i or 24p.

     
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    May 17, 2010 5:14 PM   in reply to ruzun
     
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    May 17, 2010 11:23 PM   in reply to ruzun

    Just some pointers for owners of Panasonic's new top consumer camcorders.

     

    For playback on a computer, having DivX installed and using Windows Media Player should give you some good results. That goes for almost any 1080 50p or 60p codec. As for the PS3, it plays back native files flawlessly as long as you don't have any picture adjustments enabled. The PS3 will even playback edited 1080 60p Microsoft VC-1 files. Now as far as H.264 files from Main Concepts, disable all of the PS3's picture adjustments and tell us if you notice the playback quality getting improved. Hopefully Premiere will add an export to M2T in the future.

     

     

     

    I'm having some exporting issues with CS4 at the moment. When I tried to export to 1080 60p using MPEG2 as the codec, I'm told that my settings are wrong. Anyone knows the exact settings I should be using?. When exporting to H,264 using Main Concepts, everything is fine. How do I get an option to export to VC-1?

     

    I do plan on upgrading Production Premium to CS5 possibly when I get my next GI Bill payment.

     

    I do not own the TM700 by the way (I wish I did!), I'm at least trying to gain some knowledge so that I can possibly help people.

     
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    May 18, 2010 2:57 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I just imported MTS files from Panasonic TM700 on Premiere CS5 to edit. Even though I had to convert a different format before import on Final Cut to edit 1080/60p, I did not need to do that for Premiere. However, I could not import the MTS files as 60 or 59 fps. They automatically became 29 fps.

    How did you guys make them like high fps? Also Could you tell me the best sequence setting for 1080/60p? I want to edit as good quality as possible.

    Thank you!!

     
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    May 18, 2010 3:07 AM   in reply to hfukui01

    I only tried it with a single clip given to me, that I imported and it shows up as 50 fps, which is what is expected in PAL country. Plays and edits without problems in a HDV 1080i-25 sequence.

     
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    May 18, 2010 4:30 AM   in reply to hfukui01

    Here's what I wrote elsewhere:

     

    In Premiere you have to set it up manually since theirs no preset with the settings already set for you.

     

    In the "New Sequence" Box click on "General"

    Under "Editing Mode" choose Desktop

    Under "Timebase" choose 59.94

    Under "Frame Size" put 1920x1080 Under "Fields" choose "No Fields" (since it's a progressive file)

    After those steps, you hit OK, and theirs your 59.94p timeline.

     

    If you want to output back to 1080 60p in Main Concepts H.264, you must first choose level 4.2.

     

     

    Those steps are for CS4 and I'm assuming it's not that different from CS5.

     
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    May 18, 2010 6:40 AM   in reply to AANNBBAA

    No, it is different. You just drag the clip to the new item icon in the project panel and a new sequence is automatically created with the correct settings.

     
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    May 18, 2010 9:04 AM   in reply to ruzun

    On most people's PS3's, theirs no problems at all playing back the native 1080 60p files from the TM700 although some formats like Main Concepts H.264 I believe, may have issues.

     

    If you can output to VC-1, you can have a bit rate much higher than 10Mbps and it'll look very good on a PS3 or a computer. I've downloaded a file close to 18Mbps from a user who edited a bunch of 1080 50p clips together. I'm not sure how high the bit rate can go.

     

    One user claims to have exported to MPEG2 at 1080 60p using another editor and hopefully I'll be able to do that with Premiere CS4 and see how's the playback quality on the PS3 is. Having a bite rate of aboutt 40Mbps or a little higher should gaive you a quality close to the original files.

     
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    May 18, 2010 9:29 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I'm trying to figure some of those things out myself which is why I'm trying to see if anybody can help out with MPEG2 export and the exporting to VC-1 which allows bit rates higher than 10Mbps. I'm certain I have to download a program in order to export to VC-1 using Premiere.

     
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    May 18, 2010 10:20 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I tried to play a 1080/60p on my mac pro with no problems . However I think that one of the Blu Ray settings provided by CS5 is more than enough. These camcoders take advantage of filming in 1080/50(or 60p) and the progressive gives a sort of film-grain effect to the movie. When exporting I personally think it is quite irrelevant if1080/25i or 24p is more than enough and preserves the actual quality of the original footage, what I am trying to say is that it is not visible to the human eye. As far as playback is concerned on a computer, the result depends on many factors, including graphic card.

     
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    May 18, 2010 10:58 AM   in reply to ruzun

    Some of you may be on this thread already but just in case you havn't seen it yet, theirs a computer playback discussion going on at around the bottom of this page:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1225613&page=75

     
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    May 25, 2010 4:48 PM   in reply to Gio Willis

    Is Adobe Premiere CS5 for Mac able to import MTS files from the Panasonic TM700 in the 1080p60 format?

    I have tried this with the trial version and the Premiere CS5 says that the format is not supported...

     

    I also tried in a Windows 7 virtual machine with the Adobe Premiere CS5, and it is working. What is going on?

    A bug on CS5 for Mac software?

     

    Have anyone tried this on a mac?

     
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    May 25, 2010 10:52 PM   in reply to kisshoma

    There is absolutely no problem in Adobe CS5 Premiere Pro, note that the trial version has only some codecs and limitations on tapless formats, I am importing those files with no problems in the purchased version.To have all the features you will have to buy the products. I am using it in mac environment with all the advantages of outputting to Blu Ray : Remember that when you output to Blu Ray the supported formats are 1080i25 or 1080i30 for players compatibility reason, whether it is progressive or interlaced is based on the original footage.

     
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    May 26, 2010 8:08 AM   in reply to Gio Willis

    Yes, I know the HD standards, and I know this is not it. I just had problems importing the files on the trial mac version. Thank you for the feedback. Is there any other "good" program out there that you know (besides premiere) that can work with those files on mac? I'm just trying to explore all possibilities before buying something.

     
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    May 26, 2010 8:29 AM   in reply to kisshoma

    Not on a mac. Final Cut does not support these files . Some people convert them using ClipWarp or Videopier HD . The only suitable solution is Premiere Pro CS5.

     
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    Jun 2, 2010 11:56 PM   in reply to ruzun

    Looks like Panasonic is protecting their AG-HMC40 by cutting off the TM700 AVCHD at 17Mbps, then teasing us with this 28Mbps 60p mts that we can't do anything with. Curse you Panasonic marketing strategists!

     

    Dear Panasonic: If you add 24Mbps AVCHD to the TM700, with 30p and 24p, you will put Canon and Sony out of this prosumer business, you corner the market. Just a thought. And you could do it with a firmware upgrade I bet. Then just figure out some other way to differentiate the HMC40.

     

    Interestingly the camcorderinfo.com review of the TM700 is much better than their review of the HMC40. They didn't like the HMC40 at all.

     

    I've tried using CS4 Media Encoder (MainConcepts) to convert the mts to 1080 30p h264 and I see noticeable blur on movement. 720 60p looks pretty good. 1080 60p is an option also but playback is very jerky.

     

    I'd like to try a 1080 60i output, but MainConcepts doesn't offer that. Why? Just curious.

     

    In general, is there a way to convert 60p to 30p or 24p with minimal loss of quality? I.e. if I could turn the TM700 mts into ProRes 422, even if the 422 file was huge, would that just leave me with the same problem in a different source format? I.e. losing too much quality going to 30p or 24p?

     

    At this point I'm leaning toward the Canon HF S20 because it has the best usable image (24Mbps AVCHD), albeit with crappy low light performance, because I'm not seeing any solutions to this 60p problem.

     

    Paul

     
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    Jun 3, 2010 2:39 AM   in reply to paulbenn099

    Just a different thought on an alternative workflow for Final Cut as some people here have referred to and asked about: transcoding the 60p .mts to ProRes422 shows (to my eye) absolutely no loss of quality.  (even ProRes LT works well)  In FCP going to 30p or 60i is a no-brainer, as you simply drop whole frames or every-other line, and editing in ProRes is very nice and not so CPU demanding.  Encoding your final output using x264, with its multitude of quality options to play with, gives great output.  (arguably better than MainConcept's H.264)   I need to do further tests, but the consensus is that choosing an output bit rate say >= 30Mbps makes it virtually indistinguishable from the original .mts.

     

    Although I haven't tried yet, I understand using Cinetools (part of FCP) you can also get a well-interpolated 24p if desired from 60p.  (of course this may not have that "film look" that so many desire, but that is caused by other factors as well)

     

    Eventually I'd like to compare to the Premiere workflow, which is attractive for not requiring 2 conversions.  But I must honestly say I'm surprised I don't see a generational loss using Final Cut like I expected - ProRes really works.  And the TM700 gives just beautiful footage at 60p!

     
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    Jun 3, 2010 7:39 AM   in reply to SymbioticIC

    Ok, that sounds like a solution. I was thinking 60p -> 60i would be a minimal loss of quality, but I don't see any option for that in Adobe/MainConcepts. Right now I'm a PC Adobe guy and not sure I want to make the investment in time and $ to go to the Mac FCP world.

     

    Either way it looks like a lot of transcoding so probably will go to a Core i7 Nvidia box as Adobe's CUDA support makes a large difference there. And that setup is a LOT cheaper on PC (also it's a good excuse for a decent gaming box ;-).

     

    Is there a converter that will do mts to ProRes 422 that utilizes CUDA?

     
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    Jun 9, 2010 10:18 PM   in reply to SymbioticIC

    What did you use to convert mts to ProRes 422?

     
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    Jun 10, 2010 7:30 AM   in reply to paulbenn099

    I tried both Clipwrap and Toast, both of which worked.

     
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    Jun 17, 2010 9:54 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I bought the TM700 and the PS3 250GB (Sony shipped with the latest firmware - for 3D video playback) last week and am looking for advice on which software I should buy for editing the 1080 60p video, and how best to copy to blu-ray in 1080 60p ?

    Appreciate if you can provide guidance and ideally some step-by-step instructions.

     
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    Jun 17, 2010 10:04 AM   in reply to ddhir
    how best to copy to blu-ray in 1080 60p ?

     

    Not possible, it does not conform to the BR specs. EOS.

     
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    Jun 17, 2010 11:02 AM   in reply to ruzun

    Roger & Harm,,,thanks for the quick inputs.

     

    If footage is shot in 1080 60p and delivered in 720 60p, I will still not be able to capture it on blu ray as it does not support 60p, correct ?

    Is there any other media that can store/playback 60p ?

     

    Also, the editing software (HD Writer AE 2.1) that came alongwith TM700 can edit and deliver in 1080 60p, but it seems that only the TM700 can playback the footage as it will be 60p............or can it be played back via a fast PC (what would be the minimum configuration) ?

     
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    Jun 17, 2010 11:28 AM   in reply to ddhir

    720/60P is perfectly acceptable for BRD, as is 1080/30P and 1080/60i.

     
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    Jun 19, 2010 4:21 AM   in reply to ruzun

    I am not having the above mentioned issues working with cs5 in mac environment , maybe it is the quicktime engine. I work perfectly with footage 1080 50p . Blu ray has some limitaions of its own . If you want to preserve 60 or 30p (NTSC) or 50p 25p (PAL) you will have to render in 720p . The maximum resolution allowed by blu Ray discs as far as concerns european standards, are 1080i24p or 1080i25i

     
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    Jul 3, 2010 10:42 AM   in reply to Gio Willis
    I have been doing some extensive testing this week, after reading all the posts in this and other forums.

     

    Editing TM-700 video files:
    I have tried the demos for Adobe Premiere CS5, Vego Pro 9, Vegas Movie Studio HD, Corel Videostudio Pro X3, Pinnacle, PowerDirector, and Edius 5.5.
    I shot some basic footage at full 1080/60p.
    I used files converted with HD writer to .m2ts vs just copying the .MTS files directly to hard disk.
    Most programs will open both types of files, and allow editing. However, to save and reencode the files was a problem.

     

    Only Premiere and Vegas (both versions) had the ability to change custom settings to 1920x1080 59.94 (or 60)p. Premiere was via the H.264 preset, and Vegas was via the Sony AVC preset and Mainconcept mpeg2 presets.

     

    Premiere - I could not hear any sound when importing and previewing files (it said there were no audio tracks). Also, the only template available is H.264, and only creates .mp4 files. There is no option to keep the video in the same format at the original .m2ts or .MTS. It encoded the video, but the result had no sound. I'm not sure if these file choices or sound problems are a limitation of the trial version.

     

    Vegas - Although it appeared promising that I could select 59.94 frames per second as a custom option, in both the Sony AVC preset and Mainconcept mpeg2 presets, neither would encode. Encoding would not begin, and reported "An Error occured while creating the media file. The reason for the error could not be determined."
    Encoding to any other preset worked fine.

     

    Videostudio Pro X3 was also able to edit the original video, and burn to blu-ray. Unfortunately, the video was reduced to 1080i. Video files could only be saved at 1920x1080 29i (24 p not even an option)

     

    The included HD Writer software is very basic, but will do the job.
    If you simply want to trim your videos, add some basic transitions, and save the file in original format, this is still the simplest option. It is an awkward program, and to trim video, you don't actually mark in and out points, you "delete" unwanted pieces of video. You select the opposite - what you don't want, as opposed to what you want.

     

    Playback of 1080/60p on computer:
    I have tried Windows Media Player and PowerDVD 10 Ultra. I also tried with and without DivX installed. I also turned off Windows Aero, and as many programs running in the background as possible.
    Initially, I thought that PowerDVD was the best, with fewest skipped frames. But it was still not perfect.
    Then I downloaded Splash lite. Wow. So far, perfectly smooth playback of both .MTS and .M2TS files from the camera. Not bad for a free program!

     

    So for playback, Splash lite works the best for me.
    For editing, HD Writer is a basic fix for now.
    Premiere CS5 and Vegas are promising, but I need some questions answered:

     

    Can anyone who has full versions of Vegas or Premiere confirm if
    1) In Premiere - is the audio present when previewing video, and is it present after reencoding clips?
    2) In Premiere - can you encode to anything other than .mp4 and keep 1080/60p?
    3) In Vegas - has anyone been able to encode files without the error at 1080/60p? What are the detailed settings used?
    I discovered another interesting thing about playing 1080/60p video...
    With both PowerDVD Ultra, and Splash lite, I disabled hardware acceleration in the options of each program - and voila!! Perfectly smooth playback!!
    Strange, that with hardware accerleration on, video plays worse.

     

    Something for others to try - disable hardware acceleration in your video players for smoother playback!

     

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 6:09 PM   in reply to dptempid

    dptempid,

     

    Thanks for sharing some really good insights and information.

     

    For 1080 60p video, I too found HD Writer to be basic but it works well......and your suggestion on Splash Lite was great...........the playback of 1080 60p video is really smooth even on my PC that has a Pentium 4 dual-core processor.

     

    Now if only Blu-ray could include 1080 60p in the standards......then we won't have to downgrade the 1080 60p to 720 60p or 1080 60i to record on Blu ray discs, which can be shared easily !

     
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