I have Premier Pro CS4 and have created a project with 3 Audio tracks in the timeline. I crossfade between these tracks during the project. Each of these tracks are set as stereo tracks. I then exported media as MPEG2-DVD using the PAL widescreen high quality option. Then imported the .m2v and .wav files into Encore as a timeline and created my DVD. I then tested this DVD on several different DVD players (10 in all) of different makes and types. On most of them, 7 actually, it played fine. But on the rest the audio channel played back as just the "Audio1" track from Premiere Pro project (not the mix of the 3 tracks) with the fades - resulting in the sound disappearing and re-appearing exactly where I had faded that track up and down. Remember that this is the same physical DVD being used in different DVD players!
I then searched Premiere Pro and found under Edit>Preferences>Audio a "5.1 Mixdown Type" which was set to "Front+Rear" - I changed this to "Front+Rear+LFE". I re-exported my project this time also changing the "Audio Format" in the Export settings to be 'PCM' instead of 'Dolby Digital', and made another DVD. This time this DVD played correctly and ALL BUT 1 DVD player!! The one where it did not play properly played back a mix between 'Audio 1' and 'Audio 3' tracks but did not contain 'Audio2' !!
Can anyone explain what is happening here?
To me it seems that Premiere Pro is outputting the Audio tracks as if they are 5.1 and the stereo DVD players are only picking up the "front" i.e. Audio 1 track. The 5.1 mixdown is NOT mixing the 'Rear' Audio 2 in correctly and so when I changed to "Front+Rear+LFE" I actually only got "Front +LFE". Seems odd but I can not think of any other explaination.
How can I force Premiere Pro to mix the 3 Audio tracks down into just ONE STEREO pair?!
Thanks for any suggestions!
If the master track is set to stereo, nothing needs to be done. Export elementary streams with DD stereo encoding for the audio. Dolby takes less space than wav, has better compatibility and leaves more room for improved video encoding, higher bitrates.
After authoring burn to quality DVD's at a low speed. Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden. And even then there may be an occasional player that can not handle burned DVD's.
Well I will try again with the export setting as Dolby Digital but I am sceptical that it will resolve the issue. I seem to have everything I need set to stereo but I still get my sound split up when recorded onto the DVD.
It's not a DVD quality issue. My standard DVD is Verbatim, but I have tried Philips and Sony and they perform exactly the same, so I am convinced it is NOT a DVD quality issue with these DVD players. Note that the sound always fades at exactly the same point and exactly where I faded that audio track in Premiere Pro. So the DVD players are faithfully reproducing the output, it's just that Premiere Pro is NOT making it a stereo output even when everything is apparently set to stereo!
I am lost someplace in the workflow. You mention later on that your Master is Stereo. Where is the 5.1 coming into play?
When looking at Audio Mixer, what do you see? With a Stereo Master, you should NOT have the puck and sound stage, but only Left/Right Pan control. Can you post a screen-cap of Audio Mixer?
Now, do you have ANY Track Keyframes, or is all of your attenuation done with Clip Keyframes? You can toggle the Keyframe Display between Track and Clip from the individual Audio Track Headers. You will also see the sliders/pots moving, when you playback in Audio Mixer, if you have Track Keyframes.
Good luck, and I really appreciate if you would tell me where I am missing something, regarding the 5.1 Audio in a Stereo Master Project. Maybe a screen-cap of your Timeline would be useful too.
I have probably mislead everyone with the 5.1 issue. It was just my speculative guess at what was happening. The Audio Mixer only shows the Left/Right Pan controls. So everything does appear to be set to Stereo OK.
I have attached a screen shot of my latest experiment. In this I changed the order of the tracks so what was originally on Audio 1 is on Audio 3, what was on Audio 3 on Audio 2 on what was on Audio 2 on Audio 1. I have shown the fades in the keyframes. I didn't manage to find the toggle between Track and clip you mentioned but I think I have used clip. When compiled however it is now Audio 1 which is missing from the problem DVD players. This is now implying it may be something to do with that original track? The video and audio 1 track (here) were recorded on a Canon 5D mkII using a mono mic, the other 2 audio tracks came from the show sound desk recorded onto MiniDisc in stereo. However all tracks show here as having stereo content.
Yet when I play the compiled DVD on the problem DVD players I ONLY hear Audio 2 and Audio 3 material. When I play the SAME compiled DVD on other DVD players I hear ALL 3 audio tracks, no problems!
So why is the sound being transfered onto the compiled DVD (remember it is just one DVD disc played on different machines) with coding information about the different audio tracks and they are not being mixed into one stereo track? Or is there extra coding information being passed onto the DVD to tell it about keyframes? I'm completely baffled.
If 9 out of 10 players do play correctly with all audio tracks, then the only logical conclusion is that player nr. 10 is at fault here. The audio is there on the final DVD, so EN and PR have not messed up. QED.
Sorry Harm, that is too easy a dismissing. This is a commercial DVD so we can not afford 10% field returns due to DVD's not playing correctly. The DVD player that does not play this DVD has played ALL other DVD's produced by other DVD Authoring software! These DVD's are the FIRST we have produced using Premiere Pro and Encore.
Plus I want to find out what coding/information is being put onto the DVD such that this DVD player can see the differenece between the original Audio channels in Premiere Pro!
Encore works with a single audio track, that comprises all your 3 original tracks, but mixed into a single master track. That master track is correctly burned to DVD. Nothing more can be said. It is there and if one DVD player can not play back the single master track, one can only assume that the player is at fault, assuming your ears don't play tricks on you.
If you wan't 100% compastibility, go for replicated disks, not burned ones.
When you export from PR, the result is a single audio file. By encoding you have lost, at least in EN, the three audio tracks. There is only one left.
Oh but I wish it was that simple!
You state "...if one DVD player can not play back the single master track" but it does, only with just 2 of the original PP audio tracks in the mix not all 3!
Also if it was an issue of DVD playback quality as you imply then I would either expect the sound not to play back at all, or to playback intermittently with random fading, NOT to just not have one of the Audio tracks from Premiere Pro carefully selected out to not play but to play the other 2 original tracks with their mixing perefectly!
So please explain to me why this one DVD player can play back the information that was Audio tracks 2 and 3 from Premier but NOT the sound that was on Audio track1? Yet another DVD player with the SAME physical DVD disc will play ALL audio information from tracks 1, 2 and 3.
I too thought there was only ONE audio track on the DVD but this shows that either there are further tracks or there is further audio encoding information or some other way for that DVD player to decide NOT to play PP Audio track 1 but play ALL of audio from 2 and 3 fine. The fades are exacly in line with the fades on the original PP project (see screen shot in previous post).
The belief that there was only one audio track on the final DVD lead me to my original feeling that maybe that track was laid down as, say 5.1 (a guess), with some sort of mapping from PP, even though all my settings were for stereo. Then if the problem DVD players did not decoded 5.1 correctly back into stereo we could end up with the sort of phenomenon, that we observe here.
I welcome any other theory? As this seems to be a really odd one. It's got our local "experts" stumpped too!
If it were me I'd:
Hopefully one of the above solutions will fix the issue. If not, troubleshooting may take a long time. It may be a problem with written discs as opposed to replicated discs, it may be a problem with how En transcodes to 2-channel Dolby Digital, it may be a problem with how some players react to 2-channel AC3 when they expect multi-channel AC3, or it may be a problem in Pr with how you mapped the mono source audio: how did you get the mono audio to show up as stereo?
Good troubleshooting tips.
For reasons related to the Audio output in my Projects, I always use the elemental/elementary Audio streams, and just Import those into Encore for authoring. With nearly 2000 DVD-5's, and ~ 500 DVD-9's delivered, I have never had one return, and those get played on all sorts of gear from low-end consumer to high-end esoterics.
This ARTICLE will offer a bit of background on playability (in the first part).
@ the OP,
Thank you for clearing up my confusion on DD 5.1 SS and your Projects. The screen-caps look good to me. One quick question, do you have any Track re-mapping? Just a thought.
Thanks Guys, I am appreciating everyones suggestions and help on here.
Jeff - I have tried the single .wav export and redo project with just that file and got the same behaviour, but as I still have the same video clips in with the same clip keyframes I was still not sure if it was the .wav file or the clip frame information being passed on.
I also tried the PCM audio export, but made that change at the same time as changing the 5.1 Mixdown mode in Preferences from "Front+Rear" to "Front+Rear+RFE" (see my original post of this stream). However I do need to try just that, on it's own.
I now have the above very small test project to play with. Only problem is this test project fails on only one of the ten machines where as my original projects failed on 3 of them. But I figure if I solve this one then I'll have cracked the problem.
I'm not around much this week but will experiment as soon as I can and report back.
Bill - Thanks for the playability article. We have seen problems with playability in the past including dropping audio but the point of failure has never been prescribed to exactly the keyframes and to just specific tracks as used in the authoring program before. Playability failures just treated the audio and video as single streams of a fully mixed result. The failure here is significantly different as it using infromation that is not usually passed on from the authoring program to the final DVD to select what not to play!
Oh well, will keep plugging away to find out more data to analyse...I will be back.
I also tried the PCM audio export, but made that change at the same time as changing the 5.1 Mixdown mode in Preferences from "Front+Rear" to "Front+Rear+RFE"
I meant that you should set your En project to output PCM audio. The default is Dolby Digital.
Though 100% DVD-compliant DD AC3 is one of the two "certified" primary Audio streams, some players just do not meet the DVD certification. Does this offending unit have the DVD logo on it? It should probably also have the DD (Dolby Digital) logo somewhere too. Out of curiosity, what is the make/model of this unit?
As Jeff mentions, the PCM Audio stream (the other certified stream type), is the most "universal." The Audio will occupy a bit more space on the disc, but unless you are really pushing the limits of the disc's capacity, you will likely never even notice the larger files.
You can set the Audio encoding in Encore.
Good luck, and hope that you meet with 100% success.
Hi Guys, Here's the latest updates on my testing.
Firstly - sorry Jeff, had misunderstood the PCM suggestion. Have now tried that and it made no difference at all.
With my small test project (screen shots published above) I have 2 out of 10 DVD players failing to play the part of the sound that is Audio 1 track in Premiere Pro. As it is 2 players and they fail in identical ways I am convinced it is due to the audio coding and not the quaulity of disc writing/burning.
I have tried just exporting the audio the reinserting this exported audio and deleting all other audio tracks - result NO CHANGE! Still fails in 2 out of 10 on JUST the Audio1 track part.
I then tried converting the audio track into mp3 using another program and then back into wav format. NOTE that the original exported audio file, the mp3 version of it and the .wav file made from the mp3 file all play fine on the PC in all programs I've tried them in. The reconverted .wav file was then put back into PP (plays fine) and exported and made into a DVD in Encore (Encore preview plays fine). Resulting DVD STILL FAILS to play THAT PART of the audio track BUT this time is IS there quietly but slightly distorted and broken up!!!
SO surely this MUST be something specific to do with the audio coding from the original problem track not being standard and this non-standard coding being carried through to the final DVD - via ALL SORTS of editing and re-conversion?!?!
Final test was to JUST load the video clip with the problem sound into PP do NO editting and make a DVD via Encore - result>> Very low level slightly distorted sound!!
CONCLUSION >> There must be something wrong with the encoding from the original audio files for these camera clips, that can be passed through PP and ENcore onto the final DVD's that SOME players can not read correctly.
That video was shot on a Canon 5D MkII with a mono mic plugged in. It came off the camera as a .MOV. I had to install Quicktime to get PP to read the file. They play fine on all PC programs I can find to play them.
REMAINING QUESTIONS>> Has anyone else had problems with files from Canon 5D MkII? Does anyone have any idea what the coding issues might be and how to resolve them? And WHY should they (coding issues) still remain in a final audio file on a final DVD after passing through PP, AME and En?!?!
Hunt, to answer your question on which players fail it is a Yamada 5520 (has all the badges -dts, dd, mp3, Kodak, DVD, etc), and a Philips DVDR7300H again with all the badges) - other players both cheaper (some without all badges) and more expensive, some older, some newer, all play the problem DVD's fine!
Let me summarize what you encounter:
Audio 1: Plays fine
Audio 2: Plays fine
Audio 3: Plays fine
Export to EN, both in PCM and AC3
PCM Audio: Plays fine
AC3 Audio: Plays fine
Burn to DVD
Player 1: Plays both PCM and AC3 version fine
same for players 2 thru 8
Player 9: Does not play fine
Player 10: Does not play fine
Original audio track 1 in PR does not play.
Now either your ears are playing tricks on you, because EN plays fine, and that is a single audio track, tested both with PCM and AC3, or players 1 thru 8 are all at fault as well, as is EN.
It is not possible for EN to leave out parts of the original PR audio track 1, because EN does not know it exists or has ever existed.
Consider a basket of oranges (audio tracks in PR). You compress these oranges and export to a glass of orange juice (encode to PCM or AC3 for EN) and give it to your wife. She tastes it and compliments you (plays fine in EN). You save the other glass of orange juice in the fridge (DVD) and when your son comes home you give him the glass of orange juice (play back the DVD) and he remarks, this stinks, because orange 6 is missing. (parts of track 1).
This makes no sense.
Your summary is correct.
I understand your disbelief, it was my first reaction and also that of most of the other people I have involved in this here. Yet the proof is there and we have been able to replicate the problem. Ears are fine, and so are the others who have heard the resulting DVD and followed the creation path through.
No sorry this IS a definite phenomenon. You would be welcome to come and see (rather HEAR) for yourself or I can pop a disc in the post for you with files if you want to try it for yourself.
May be I should start charging and advertise it as some strange unexplained mystery - could earn quite a bit I guess
Can we try another test? Go back to your PrPro Project, with Assets as close to the original, as is possible (no MP3 to WAV to MP3 to WAV, conversions, if at all possible), and just move all of the Clips on Audio Track 1 down to a new Audio Track 4? This will leave Audio Track 1 totally empty, but other than that, and the order of the Tracks (you could even create Audio Track 4 right below Audio Track 1, if you'd like, and can rename the Audio Tracks as you desire). Then, do the Export for this slightly re-arranged Project.
I'd do a quick test Project in Encore from scratch, using just these new files. Don't bother with any Menus, etc., but just leave it as a AutoPlay. Burn to an RW DVD for testing, and try that in all of your players.
Does this new Project exhibit the same behavior?
Good luck, and I am stumped.
PS - what is leading me in this direction is similar issues in PrElements. The situation there is slightly different, as there are two fixed Audio Tracks, Soundtrack and Narration. During some operations, these two fixed Tracks seem to Lock (there is no Track Locking in PrE), and also exhibit either total loss of the signal on those Tracks, or extreme attenuation. Moving the Clips to the regular Audio Tracks seems to clear things up in those cases. We are basically doing the same thing as a test.
Hi Guys, I have been away so sorry for the delay in replying. I tried the shift in Audio tracks but still no solution.
By the way we have now found another 2 DVD players that CAN'T play this part of audio, and another 6 that CAN play it from the SAME actual DVD (one disc used in all DVD players).
I have now simplified the issue right down. I have just the audio track (as a .wav stereo file), no video. I have just first 30 seconds of that track. Now when I "Export Media" from PP and then Import into Encore and create a DVD (no menus, nothing fancy just an autoplay DVD) I get a DVD with black screen and no (or very very quiet) sound and a couple of loud crackles on the "bad" DVD players BUT perfect sound on the "good" DVD players from the same resultant disc. All previews in PP and En play fine. I have no keyframes, no fading, just added the files to the timeline!
If I change nothing in the PP project other than replace the problem audio track with another audio file (also a .wav stereo file). Repeat the Export and import and create DVD (no changes to any settings), I then get a DVD that plays PERFECT AUDIO in ALL DVD players.
So it MUST be something to do with the original audio file - but what is it?!
I tried changing the sampling rate of the "problem" audio file using an audio editting program, but when I use the resulting file I have the problem still!
However, as soon as I swap it for another .wav file from, say, another camera audio file or a ripped audio cd, then I can produce DVD's that play successfully in all players.
It just seems that one audio file is jinked!
I even tired cutting a small section from the middle of the problem file by using another audio editting program, but even that clipped part of audio will not produce good DVDs!
So when ever I use the "Problem" audio file (in whatever format I've tried) I get problem DVDs but when I use a "Normal" audio file I have no problems in creating DVD's to play on ALL DVD players. If I mix "Problem" audio file and "Normal" audio files in the same DVD (one on Audio track 1 and one on Audio track2 - I've tried it both ways round) then on the "Bad" DVD players I can only hear the "Normal" audio file information BUT on "Good" DVD players I can hear BOTH audio track information!
If anyone want to check out the "problem" audio file it can be found here www.cwphotos.co.uk/AudioIssues/MVI_0974.wav
I have also uploaded the exported .m2v and .wav file from the experiment of putting both a "Normal" audio track (the guitar music) in parallel with a "Problem" audio track (applause-talking-male singer) and then Exporting Media. Even though these files play fine on a PC and the .wav file 'looks' OK in an audio edditting program, when I burn these files to a DVD I can play the disc in "Good" DVD players and hear both tracks, or play it in "Bad" DVD players and only hear the "Normal" audio track!!
Note you might have to try a few DVD players to find a "Bad" one. The video is set for PAL widescreen.
OK have now proved beyond my doubt, at least, that this is an audio file issue. It seems that Premiere Pro is interleaving audio samples from it's audio tracks rather than really mixing audio back to new samples. So where I have an audio track with a problem (different coding?) it is giving problemsin final DVD's.
I have now taken the audio track from the PP export media and recorded it onto MiniDisc then back into a .wav file then used that new .wav file to make the DVD and 'bingo' all audio plays OK in ALL DVD players!
I'm now left with how to get my problem .wav files "re-recorded" such that they are not altered in length or timing. It seems most PC programs for .wav editing do not overwrite the problem part of the original file and so leave me with a problem. I have to go via an 'analogue' route and back to digital to get good samples and file.
If anyone knows a PC program that will "RE-Record" an audio file please let me know. Or any other solutions on how to get good problem free .wav files out of my "problem" ones?
FYI, I took a look at the "bad" wav file, and I don't see any issue. It is 44K; is that true of the other clips?
You never did explain how you made this mono camera clip into a stereo wav. I think you imply, but don't actually say, that you experimented with a new camera clip subjected to the same (or other) process as the "bad" clip. If not, I would try that. I would also go back to the original clip and use it as mono as a test. (A mono clip in a stereo master should work.)
Positively mystifying. I agree with your earlier post: a special Ripley's museum for videographers/editors with problems and workarounds that make your flesh crawl....
I think you are on the right lines. Just as you were posting your reply I was doing another experiment. I have gone back to the files from the camera and looked at the "Mono" sound. It is actually output as stereo but with the mono signal on both channels exactly matched BUT IN ANTI-PHASE.
I then edited the sound to swap the phase on the left channel and reworked my test case, and VOILA! the sound now works in ALL DVD players.
So SOME DVD players lose the "mono" anti-phase sound but most players and PC's do not lose it - still to figure out exactly why.
This ani-phase behaviour would also explain why I could not solve the problem by converting audio files between different formats. And also why all of us have been so bemussed by the fact that it all merged into a single .wav file before creating the DVD.
I am now going to go back to all the clips from the camera with the mono mike and reverse the phasing on one channel, then redo my original big project to test this all out.
******* Can anyone tell me if there is a way in PP to copy the position of the keyframes where I faded sound across from the "old" sound clips to the "new" clips to save me loads of time? *******
Give me a few days work and I'll be back to update this post to say it that has really solved the original problem or not!!
Interesting about the Phase Shift. Actually, similar is often used to remove certain frequencies in an Audio Clip, as the signals will tend to cancel each other out.
Now, I am very curious about the camera used in your case. The reason is that some similar (or at least similar-sounding) issues have appeared in the Encore and in the PrElements fora. I would never have thought of a dual-mono signal with the channels out of Phase. You might well have solved some other users' issues. The reason that I want to know the camera, is to study its Audio output a bit more, and also use it as a reference in those other threads, if I can only find them now. While those other users will not have had to use the same camera, if they have one that handles 1-channel to 2-channel the same way, the Phase Shift might well help them too.
Thank you for reporting, as you may well have helped others,
The camera was a Canon 5D MkII DSLR. I plugged a Rode NTG-2 condenser mono mic into it. I will try it with a mono to stereo convertor cable next time I use it, as it might have been due to me plugging the mono mic directly in.
Hope that helps.
Will let you know as soon as I have reworked all the files and have a new DVD of the main project tested.
Just as you were posting your reply I was doing another experiment.
Must have been telepathy as it took me a while to write the post with interruptions.....
BUT IN ANTI-PHASE
I thought about that early in this thread, but it still makes no sense to me that some players would play it and others not. It's all physics and somethign has to explain this. Still belongs in the videographers' Ripley's even if this fixes it.
THAT'S IT! SOLVED!
The recompiled DVDs made from the audio tracks with one channel of the "problem" audio files inverted (to match the phase) all work fine in all the DVD players!
The problem all along was a Stereo audio track with sound clips that, although they were stereo in format out of the camera, had been recorded with a MONO mic and had ended up with the right and left channels being identical mono signals but in anti-phase! So when you mix left and right into a single mono stream you got silence. SOME DVD players and all PC's I tried actually played this file "normally" as a true mono signal but some seemed to mix the 2 channels and produce silence.
This explains why changing formats and a mixed down file all still exhibited the problem.
What I don't know is WHY some DVD players play that type of track OK and others play it as silence - all theories welcome
MORAL: Do NOT plug the BALANCED output of a MONO mic into the STEREO input of a camera without first converting it to true single line mono and then splitting back to two IN-PHASE left and right channels!
Thanks to everyone on here that had a stab at helping find the cause and fix it, even if we all thought we were going mad and our ears were playing tricks on us!
You never know this might come in handy for a neat party trick sometime!!
Hope it has helped others solve some mystries.
Glad that you now have 100% compatible Audio and also have isolated teh cause. I have linked to this thread in the PrE forum, as some users had similar, odd behavior, and this might be helpful to them.
Going back some decades, Bob Carver, and audio scientist, developed a similar treatment, though with much more processing, to create what he patented as Sonic Holography. The effect from a stereo source is still phenomenal, even compared to DD 5.1 SS and DTS. I still use my Carver C-4000t system, though the listener's placement is critical. When in the "sweetspot," the sonic world really opens up, and in ways that DD 5.1 SS and even DTS, do not quite envelope the listener. Carver accomplishes this through some phase-inversion, some delay and a few other filters, most tunable for the source. Only issue is that those adjustments are done on the pre-amp, so one needs to continually move from the sweetspot to the unit, and back, until things are perfect - this was before remote controls. Then, when all is perfect, just sit back and enjoy.
Thanks, for reporting,