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CS4 First Quadrant CS5 Fourth Quadrant???

May 12, 2010 6:43 AM

I just installed my upgrade to Illustrator CS5 and have quickly noticed the quadrant change from previous versions. I need the y-axis to be positive, not negative...is there any way to change this? Unfortunately I have a feeling that I won't get the response that I am hoping for, but I thought it was worth a shot.

 

Thanks

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 12, 2010 9:20 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    You can just grab the origin marker and re-align it - liek you can in any AI version ever since god knows when... Just be aware that in CS5 each artboard can have a unique origin.

     

    Mylenium

     
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    May 12, 2010 10:52 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    For many years, Illustrator has been the only design application that uses the 1st Quadrant (origin at lower left, y-values increasing as you move up the page). Almost every other application (Photoshop, InDesign, Flash, After Effects, Dreamweaver, even Word) uses the 4th quadrant (origin at the top left, y-values increasing as you move down the page).

     

    This inconsistency has caused a ton of problems for people who use Illustrator as well as these other applications, and one of the most common feature requests has been for Illustrator to make this change. Clearly this will be a point of confusion for some people who have been using Illustrator for years and grown accustomed to the unusual Postscript based behavior, but I am confident that as you get used to it, you will find great benefit in matching the behavior of other applications.

     
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    May 12, 2010 11:19 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    vanhorn-flex,

     

    There was a longer thread about it a few months ago: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2275205

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 12, 2010 1:20 PM   in reply to davidmacy

    This inconsistency has caused a ton of problems for people who use Illustrator as well as these other applications, and one of the most common feature requests has been for Illustrator to make this change.

    I cannot speak for all users of these multiple applications, nor can I offer statistical evidence regarding the most common feature requests. I can only say I've never had trouble making the necessary mental mode change needed to work fluidly in Illustrator as well as page layout applications, such as QuarkXpress, Pagemaker, and InDesign.

     

    I am, I confess, a bit surprised Adobe made this change in AI 15. If I had to guess which was the most common feature request regarding this particular issue, it would be that users be given the choice as to default location of the x,y origin (and polarity of the y axis) -- perhaps even on a per-document basis. I would also guess that such a feature would have been somewhat more work to implement.

     

    Honestly, in the grand scheme of things, this is almost a non-issue for me. More important, I would think, are other items pertaining to the not-even-close-to-fulfilled promise of "interface uniformity" among Adobe applications. Just the other day, some guy was here wondering why Command/Ctrl+T didn't give him Free Transform. Several posters every week come here after hitting Command/Ctrl+Shift+B to toggle boldface text, only to find they've lost the bounding box.

     

    I assume these interface inconsistencies have not been addressed in AI 15.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 12, 2010 3:00 PM   in reply to Harron K. Appleman

    Harron K. Appleman wrote:

     

    This inconsistency has caused a ton of problems for people who use Illustrator as well as these other applications, and one of the most common feature requests has been for Illustrator to make this change.

    I cannot speak for all users of these multiple applications, nor can I offer statistical evidence regarding the most common feature requests. I can only say I've never had trouble making the necessary mental mode change needed to work fluidly in Illustrator as well as page layout applications, such as QuarkXpress, Pagemaker, and InDesign.

     


    This has been an ongoing request for many many versions and in my recollection no one has said leave it the way it was except if my memory seves me correct James Talmage who thought this was the proper way. If I am wrong about that I apologize.

     

    But no one else ever ever wrote to leave it the way it was and do not change it. I know that I pointed out that once changed user who were use to this way of defining the origin will complain about the change. A toggle was discussed i think back in version 10 and again no one wanted it, n one needed it.

     

    This is the problem I mentioned recently of changing things to be more like FH for some FH users this will be great but for most ai user they will not want it and have little need if any for such features and changes.

     

    It might be a good idea to have a kind of User to User Forum Focus group to discuss possible feature request.

     

    Even if it solves nothing it can serve t show users exactly what they wrote before he feature was implemented.

     

    That would be interesting. An Educational.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 13, 2010 4:32 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    In this thread referred to earlier, http://forums.adobe.com/message/2275205 , not only one but two members stated that Y = 0 at the bottom was not unnatural for an application such as Illy, but actually natural.

     

    Neither said that the position of the X axis, or the Y axis should not be optional; on the contrary, only one more even mentioned that rather obvious possibility which could serve everyone.

     

    It is always dangerous to ask for something: you may get it. So is it optional, as would be the right and full solution, or just reversed?

     

    Maybe a key question is how Illy is actually used/viewed: merely as an auxiliary application to produce (vector) graphics to put on pages using other applications, or an independent application in its own right, which may be used in a number of different ways, alone or together with others.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 13, 2010 5:22 AM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    That is not the way I read that thread you had a discussion about what is right and wrong, no one made a feature request excet the OP and myself.

     

    All the rest was discussion and after a while it became meaningless and had no direction.

     

    What no said or did say in that thread had nothing t d with the many many threads in the past that actually made a feature request to have the rulers changed and they all clearly stated why they needed this.

     

    Now what is wrong with giving this an option and I suppose a toggle of course is that when that toggle is accidentally hit the user experienced or not is not going to know how to change it back. If they do not understand what a preference means because of the wording they may set it wrong and never realize it.

     

    It seems unlikely but experience here on this forum tells us this is a very likely scenario.

     

    That other thread made no reference to actually changing this and only the OP and I were making the feature request.

     

    So I say again I do not recall anyone making this feature request actually suggest that there be an option, not once.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 13, 2010 9:01 AM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    What would be wrong with giving users an option to change direction of the Y axis? or maybe even X and Y axes?

    Let's take a deeper look:

     

    The option could be global, or it could be per document. If you want more choice, then you would probably want it to be per-document, so I'll start with that.

    If Ai allowed you to set the direction of the Y axis:

    • When you received a file from someone else you would need to determine which way it was set before doing much work on it. For less experienced users, this could be a very confusing issue.
    • If you copied and pasted from one file to another, there is always a chance that the axis may be flipped and you would see different coordinates between the two files.
    • Tutorials like online videos would often have an additional level of confusion, especially for less experienced users.
    • Actions that include any transforms could not easily be shared or even applied within different documents.
    • This confusion would go on in perpetuity.

     

    OK, so what if the setting was global instead of per document?

    • When you received a file from someone else, you would not know whether they were working "upside down" or "rightside up". Maybe this would not be a problem, but it could certainly make communication more difficult.
    • There would still be a problem with sharing actions.
    • Tutorials would still have added complexity.
    • If you share a computer with others, you may from time to time get frustrated at other users having changed this setting (unless of course it was a user level pref which could have its own issues)
    • Even though this is a simpler approach with fewer "gotchas", people who want more choice would still argue that it is better to make this a per document setting.

     

    In essence, what I am saying is that more choices do not always make for better software. Adding additional controls adds complexity, and many already feel that Illustrator is a complex product and needs to be simpler.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 13, 2010 9:31 AM   in reply to davidmacy

    I agree this might seem like a good thing but customer service and tech support would have a nightmare to handle this and this forum would be filed with endless threads of why.

     

    If you ever talked to other users of computers in general you know they want to click on the button and be done. Here there would be no button but a setting of some sort and that would never fly.

     

    That is why I was saying you guys were just bantering about x and y and origin points and not actually making a request for or expecting a change.

     

    There is another point to consider with the advent of multiple artboards which can be of different sizes and the ability to paste in place for each art board

    you cannot have this occur from one use to the other.

     

    Then this would require the alignment of the artboards to shift fro one user to another depending on the origin points…Ithink by this time one woud expect AI to crash with every cut and paste.

     

    This is a sound and wise investment made and will also integrate better with Flash have the orientation to upper left origin.

     

    And many technical drawings of today will be replaced by 3D models in the future as the 2d tech drawing is often hard to follow which would be created in a different environment or space one of the reason Illustrator needs a 3D environment to work with the other applications. Doesn't have to be a 3D authoring platform but needs to be a way of working with Models, more robust then what PhotoshOp currently has…

     

    I'm just pointing out things have changed and some old ways are no longer required.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 13, 2010 12:42 PM   in reply to davidmacy

    David,

     

    If you have another look at post #7 in this thread (the same as referred to earlier), http://forums.adobe.com/message/2275205 , you will see that the option is clearly at the Document level (and it should be among the options for new documents).

     

    This means that if you open a document created by yourself or someone else, you will very soon find out whether you have to rethink, or just reverse it. Presumably, Illy will have to rethink every document created in earlier versions; and actions will have to be rewritten.

     

    And as it appears from post #17 there, Canvas and Xara Extreme have the option; has there ever been an outcry over that?

     

    Or has anyone that wanted the change ever complained that the other applications mentioned in post #13 there, including Corel Draw and Freehand, were also Y up?

     

    And, as it appears from post #18 there, the naturalness of Y up has nothing to do with technical drawings (although it would seem funny to use negative values to draw positive values), but with naturalness and real world concepts.

     
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    May 13, 2010 3:17 PM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    It is interesting that jacob is working with version AI 10 and has no real need to update or he would have already and probably has no intention of updating to CS 5 or 6 and though this almost sounds like feature request it is not at all. it almost also sounds as if this has some direct bearing  on his work flow but it does not.

     

    He is just arguing a point for the sake of arguing.

     

    It was the right decision and the few folk here who are stuck on a technical issue do not see the bigger picture and this is that users have to get their work done since Illustrator and since Illustrator is geared to a CMYK workflow first and foremost then the upper left hand corner has to be the point of origin.

     

    The CMYK environment and now the rgb environments are upper left, this is not about right or wring it is about what has to be.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 14, 2010 11:43 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    vanhorn-flex, I hope you are aware that this forum is a friendlier place than this thread may imply.

     

    It is a surprise for me that anyone could have any objection to our (yourself, Harron, James (who has not even taken part in this thread),  and myself) expressing any doubt, or merely surprise, concerning the obviousness of a need for a change of what was and is (until CS5) the common practice in graphic vector applications like Illy, including those often referred to in this forum, without any reservation concerning their (same) Y direction ever being mentioned. A comparison with these hardly seems less relevant than a comparison with other kinds of  applications, especially those completely different ones more closely  related to (Western) writing purposes, often using more or less complete  graphics from Illy.

     

    None of us have spoken one word against the option of what now seems to be the new reversed practice.

     

    I have no recollection of any discussions about this matter before the thread I referred to; there may have been some on the Mac side before the merge last year, but I believe only a few members took part on both sides.

     

    So far, in this thread, only two members have actually stated their preferring the reversing of the Y axis; in the other thread, two members more stated a similar preference, one of them deeming it unworkable without a complete remaking of the whole application because of foreseeable issues.

     

    So it seems that forum members are divided over this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 14, 2010 12:03 PM   in reply to Jacob Bugge

    On the Mac side this has come up many times each year since I first arrived here in 1997 and i believe it has also been posted here several times int the past year.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 15, 2010 9:40 AM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    You can back to CS4 by edit the AIPrefs file, changes these two lines:

     

    /isRulerOriginTopLeft 1
    

     

    to

     

    /isRulerOriginTopLeft 0
    

     

    and

     

    /isRulerIn4thQuad 1
    

     

    to

     

    /isRulerIn4thQuad 0
    

     

    Where is the AIPrefs file? Go have a search .

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 15, 2010 1:14 PM   in reply to moluapple

    Now that was some news, moluapple. Thank you very much for sharing it.

     

    So it is optional after all, although requiring a bit more effort.

     

    Maybe the thrill comes when transferring documents, between users/applications.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 16, 2010 9:55 AM   in reply to davidmacy
    function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

    For many years, Illustrator has been the only design application that uses the 1st Quadrant (origin at lower left, y-values increasing as you move up the page).

     

    Nonsense. FreeHand, Draw, Designer, Canvas, Xtreme are all illustration programs in Illustrator's same product category, and all use the normal Cartesian coordinate system. Same goes for almost all drawing programs in more exacting disciplines, such as CAD.

     

    function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

    If AI allowed you to set the direction of the Y axis...[various ostensible problems cited]

     

    David,

    Why do you consider it inherently less possible or more problematic to provide the Y-axis orientation as a user setting in Illustrator than it is for other programs that already do so?

     

    For example:

     

    Xtreme 5 document with rulers set to normal Y-up orientation:

     

     

    Object copied, pasted (Paste In Place) into a separate Different document with Y-down orientation:

     

     

    Both documents saved and open at the same time. No problem copying/pasting between them.

     

    function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

    Adding additional controls adds complexity, and many already feel that Illustrator is a complex product and needs to be simpler.

     

    I quite agree that Illustrator is unnecessarily confused, cluttered, and poorly organized, making it nearly indecipherable to new users. But making a program approachable is an issue of interface design elegance, not a matter of limiting needed functionality. Between Illustrator and Xtreme, which do you consider--on the obvious face of it--more approachable to beginners?

     

    JET

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 16, 2010 10:58 AM   in reply to JETalmage-71mYin

    First of all you constantly include examples of programs that have yet to be successfully ported to the Mac platform or no longer is being developed for the Mac Platform and which had extreme problems on the Mac platform.

     

    So these features are irrelevant until such time they can be ported to the Mac platform despite the fact that there are many  many more windows based units out there in the world the fact remains the graphic arts industry has an enormous Mac base and Illustrator is a big part of that usage. So most windows based pcs do not ener int the picture and so for Adobe these types of features have to be portable to the Mac platform, even though Adobe might want to dump the Mac platform in order to rid themselves of Steve Jobs.

     

    So if Xtreme does this that is wonderful If; when you change the document size that you are pasting place into it will paste in the right position even though the origin point is changed in that documents and if it will do this to all artboards in one command as can be done in Illustrator.

     

    If it can do that then I say Adobe should look at this feature, that is without crashing and causing Illustrator to disfunction in anyway or when opened in older versions of Illustrator or other Illustration and paced in layout programs or sent to pdf it does not create any problems, it would be great feture if the feature cannot be implement where it is fine Iin Illustrator but causes havoc in export then I say screw it.

     

    Just going to confuse everyone I still think Adobe should wait to see if they get feedback demanding this feature. I personally do not think that is going to happen.

     

    I bet most uses do not even notice they will just remember it as always working the way it odes because they are use to working from the top left down.

     

    I bet in Japan they will love this as well as the Middle East.

     

    I think Adobe should wait until after 64 bit is implemented then if there is a cry for this and not just from the few here on this forum then see if it is possible in CS 7.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 16, 2010 11:10 AM   in reply to Wade_Zimmerman
    function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

    First of all you constantly include examples of programs that have yet to be successfully ported to the Mac

     

    First of all, I wasn't talking to you, was I?

     

    Second of all, whether a program is available on MacOS is immaterial to this topic.

     

    Third of all, Deneba Canvas--one of the drawing programs that provides the user-setting in question, began on MacOS, as did Illustrator. But again, that has nothing to do with it.

     

    JET

     
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    Jun 2, 2010 4:44 PM   in reply to moluapple

    Thank you moluapple. If I hadn't found your aiprefs fix, I wouldn't recommend CS5 to my co-workers and print suppliers. They won't get it until I can guarantee compatibility. At least now I can open and save things correctly.

     

    I work for a manufacturer with a decade's worth of Illustrator drawings that must coordinate with our AutoCAD department. We have thousands of Illustrator drawings with origin of 0,0 at the bottom left corners of objects. If I had to put a negative in front of every Y value above zero, I'd stay with CS4 for many more years.

     

    I understand the reasons why this was done, for compatibility with other Adobe products and the ability to assign origins in each artboard. But compatibility with other products needs to be considered as well. I will not be able to change my colleagues that work in other programs to change their coordinates to match Adobe.

     

    One more things to solve before I can recommend CS5. Is there a way to open in Global Rulers by default? Is there a line in the AiPrefs for that? If not, this should be a Preferences checkbox, and not wait for CS6 to appear.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2010 5:14 PM   in reply to Harold Demure

    Harold,

    Global Rulers vs. Artboard Rulers is a document-level setting. You can set it and save a New Document Profile to get this setting every time you create a new document. You can easily overwrite the built-in New Document Profiles to make sure that they all include this setting.

     

    Can you tell us a little more about your workflow with the CAD department? For example, do you give them PDF files or do you Export DWG or DXF files from Ai?

     

    I am asking this so that we can be prepared to help any other customers who may face problems with similar workflows, but I am also asking because I am actually surprised that the ruler origin change had any impact on this workflow.

    Why am I surprised? Because the ruler origin change was really only a UI change in Illustrator. The file format did not change. Only the UI changed to indicate that the ruler origin is top-left corner. Of course this includes not only the ruler UI itself, but also the Transform Panel, Control Panel, and all other UI where Illustrator displays the position of artwork.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 3, 2010 9:30 AM   in reply to davidmacy

    David,

     

    Yes, I discovered this morning after opening the drawing I was working on yesterday, that once Global Rulers is set in a file, it is remembered. So now with the AiPrefs fix I can use all our legacy files without having to enter negative Y values.

     

    I asked our engineering department about this, and it's been the norm for decades, even pre-computer with drafting tables and T-squares, that mechanical drawings usually start at 0,0 in the bottom left, up and right are positive numbers. An engineer showed me what he was taught in school: hold your left arm out and make an "L" with your index and thumb. Index finger is Y and thumb is X (and Z is coming toward you). Adobe didn't consult with mechanical engineers before making this change.

     

    We are an audio electronics design and manufacturing company. Our engineering department uses AutoCAD to determine parts placement and where the parts extrude the chassis, requiring labelling. They produce 2D mechanical drawings which go to the metal fabricators. I use these same drawings to create the silkscreen design in Illustrator along with registration points. I also create the rendered drawings of what the finished product will look like during product development, but I can't produce these accurately until I get the dimensional drawings from engineering. Once a product is approved and headed to production, I export a DWG for them to import into AutoCAD for final assembly instructions in the factory. Illustrator's DWG and DXF export is awful, but that's a topic for a different thread. Our CAD department has learned how to re-scale and explode the bits from the DWG I send them. We all use a PDF workflow here as well. Sometimes it's easier for me to start from a PDF exported from AutoCAD and imported into Illustrator, but I still rely on the bottom-left 0,0 coordinates and the dimension callouts on their dimension drawing. I probably have the Transform panel open more than any other.

     

    It's really about selecting an object and being able to type values into the Transform panel. I don't want to have to type a negative number for Y when the instructions I'm working from are all positive.

     

    Now what's the best avenue to get a preferences option for this way of working in the next release or patch?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 3, 2010 10:55 AM   in reply to Harold Demure

    Thank you Harold, that is a very helpful explanation.

    Best avenue for getting this added in the preferences UI is to log a feature request at

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 22, 2012 11:20 AM   in reply to davidmacy

    Here I am in CS6 with the same problem. I need to change the Y ruler to postive numbers going up. I've fixed the problem in CS5 with the AIPrefs solution. I'm trying to do the same in CS6, yet I can't find the Prefs file in this version. Has this been done away with or renamed? Is there an easier way? Surely I'm not the only Illustrator user that needs to use object bottom left 0,0 to work with 2D projects. I'm hoping I can at least edit the prefs file.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 22, 2012 11:35 AM   in reply to Harold Demure

    I found it! To anyone else using Illustrator CS6 in Windows, the same AIPrefs fix works in both CS5 and CS6. To get the Y ruler to increase positive numbers vertically from the lower left of the object in Global Rulers, edit the AiPrefs file in notepad (without a txt extention).

    Close Illustrator. The file is found in C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Adobe Illustrator CS6 Settings\en_US\x64

    Make the value changes shown by moluapple above.

    Open Illustrator and the rulers will be correct for 2D engineers.

    Thanks again moluapple!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 22, 2012 11:43 AM   in reply to Harold Demure

    Harold, check this thread for an easier way to make the change

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/3859266#3859266

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 22, 2012 4:36 PM   in reply to vanhorn-flex

    Every schoolboy knows that up is + and down is –.

    Anyone who has ever learned to draw graphs knows that positive numbers are customarily above the 0 line and negative numbers are below it.

    Illustrator’s graphs are no exception to this convention.

     

    So why the Adobe people had to make things complicated beats me.

    You shouldn’t have to think when you enter a positive number to move an object up.

    So what was the thinking behind messing things up (down)?

     
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    Oct 22, 2012 4:43 PM   in reply to Steve Fairbairn

    Steve,

     

    All the whiners who used Photoshop and other image programs that for some reason decided to start at the top/left.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 23, 2012 2:39 AM   in reply to Larry G. Schneider

    and the people who use InDesign.

     
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    Oct 23, 2012 3:07 AM   in reply to Monika Gause

    Same problem with InDesign. You always have to think twice before moving things, otherwise they go in the wrong direction.

    Photoshop doesn’t have a Move thing, so it isn’t really a problem there.

     
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    Oct 23, 2012 8:36 AM   in reply to Monika Gause

    Monica, I use InDesign as much as Illustrator, and I've never had any confusion at all between the two programs. Sometimes I do single page ads in Illustrator with the origin at upper right of the page. But my engineering drawings must have origin at the bottom left of the object. The program should be able to let me choose between origins between object or page, postive or negative numbers.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 23, 2012 9:05 AM   in reply to Harold Demure

    You won't get any arguement from most users. It should have been an available toggle in the Document setup to choose the origin for that doucment.

     
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