Skip navigation
Currently Being Moderated

Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?

Jul 3, 2010 9:27 AM

I have been enjoying the performance gain of using the GPU on my graphics card (GTS 250) even though it is not officially supported. I have found that some timelines that take the CPU to 95% in software mode play back using only 25% using the GPU.

I have found only one anomaly so far and I am not sure if it is specific to the mercury playback engine using hardware, using an unsupported card, or just my card/system in particular.  If I place large (over 4,320 pixels alone the long edge) Jpeg pictures on the timeline (DSLR 1080p @29.97), animated the position and scale using the standard motion effect and apply a cross dissolve, the MPE using hardware will crash during export or bring it to a very slow grind.  It is the only case that I have found where exporting in software mode is much faster.

However, if I reduce all the images so that the longest edge is below 4,000 pixels, the speed of the MPE using hardware returns and exports work fine.  I am curious to here if others have noticed any performance lag/problems from using large images?

PPRO CS5 5.0

Nvidia GTS 250

Nvidia Driver Version 197.?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 9:52 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    Why are you using such large still images? Is there a compelling reason for doing so?

     

    If there is, you will find that AfterEffects will handle these much better, than will PrPro.

     

    If there is not, then this ARTICLE might prove useful to you. It will also give you a bit of background on the Scaling algorithms in PrPro vs those in PS.

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 10:53 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    Image size is limited to 4000 x 4000 pixels max.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 11:42 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    For CS5 Frame sizes cannot exceed 16 megapixels.

    Try and make your still the same size as your sequence, if you want to do some panning or zooming make it twice the size of the seqeunce settings.

     

    BTW: update to 5.0.1

     

     

     

    Message was edited by: Ann Bens

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 4:12 PM   in reply to {KMS}

    I did read the CS5 manual and it stated 16 megapixels, page 89.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 4:35 PM   in reply to {KMS}

    Regardless of the maximum still size allowed, if one is concerned about the resulting quality, you will very likely want to Scale in PS, rather than in PrPro. There is nothing to be gained by Importing a lot more pixels, than needed, as they will just be thrown away. This is one time, where bigger is not better.

     

    I normally Scale to my Project Frame Size, and when I do need to Pan on a Zoomed out image, will calculate what I will require. Besides providing the best Scaling, I also keep the processing overhead to a minimum.

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2010 5:36 PM   in reply to {KMS}

    By using Actions, PS is not tough to deal with. In my case, I view each image as unique, so treat each one as such.

     

    It's your call on what you wish to do, but if you have a slowdown, and care about the quality of your still images - I'd find it easy to make that call.

     

    My today's standards, an image of 4,300 pixels along the long edge is not that big....

    I do not recall intimating that it was. However, 1920 x 1080 is much, much smaller, so you are just throwing away unused pixels.

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 7:19 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    I've discovered something similar, actually. I'm using a GTX-480, as well, so it's hard to say whether it's the result of an unsupported card or a problem with hardware MPE.

     

    I had a project that was continuously crashing Premiere CS5 (it was brought forward from CS4) whenever it encountered a couple of photos that I had animated with Scale and Position and to which I'd applied dissolves, so long as GPU acceleration was enabled. I thought it was a problem with the dissolves, but some experimentation revealed that it might actually be the result of the images DPI instead of the dimensions or the dissolves. I had decreased the size of the images (they were photos from a DSLR, something like 3600x2400--can't remember exact dimensions at the moment) as I thought that might be the cause, but Premiere still crashed. I tried removing the dissolves--crash. I tried removing the original animation and rebuilding it--crash, the moment I scaled down from 100%.

     

    Funnily enough, I had a larger image farther down the sequence that had no problems. I started doing some exploration and found that the photos that were causing the crash were 180DPI (pretty standard for digital stills, I think) while the one that was OK was 240DPI. Once I changed the "crashy" photos to 72DPI, I was able to animate the photos and have dissolves between them without a problem.

     

    Since you're working with DSLR photos, check the DPI of the images and see if they're 180DPI. If so, as a test, try changing one to anything else, and see what happens.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 7:59 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    Colin has confirmed similar in his copy of CS5.

     

    Now, what happens if you use the large stills in an AE Comp, and do the same operations? That is a much better program for large still image animations.

     

    Good luck,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 8:05 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Bill,

     

    This is an issue with hardware-based MPE/GPU acceleration when it comes to scaling these images--in software MPE mode, there is no problem (for me, anyway). So while AE is undoubtedly the better/best choice for animating stills of just about any kind, that's really not the question here. The fact is that Premiere should not stumble or crash with these images in software or hardware-accelerated mode; of course, it's difficult to tell if the issue is due to the OP and me using unsupported GPUs, or if there is an issue with hardware MPE in general.

     

    I'd be happy to post up one of the photos that was causing the problem for me, if someone with a supported GPU was willing to test.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 8:10 AM   in reply to Colin Brougham

    Colin,

     

    I agree, and you had already confirmed an issue with large still images, with animation and Transitions in CS5 to address the issues.

     

    I was curious is AE CS5 suffered from the same issues, as it is the better program for such. If it stumbles too, then all bets are off.

     

    Thanks for checking and confirming for the OP.

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 8:17 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    I was curious is AE CS5 suffered from the same issues, as it is the better program for such. If it stumbles too, then all bets are off.

    It doesn't; nor does Premiere when turning off GPU acceleration. As the OP noted, he also found there was a "solution" of sorts when turning off GPU acceleration on his system. To me, that's a pretty clear indicator of where the problem lies, and that's with the GPU. We're both tempting fate with unsupported GPUs, so it's likely our problem, and our problem alone, but it's hard to tell without GTX-285 or similar for comparison's sake.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 8:18 AM   in reply to Colin Brougham

    Colin,

     

    Thank you for the clarification.

     

    Appreciated,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2010 11:00 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    In Video, the DPI/PPI will be ignored, so you're good to go with the 72.

     

    Remember that when you Import a still image into PrPro and use it on the Timeline, you have "created" and AV file, based on the FPS and Duration for the still Clips. Rendering for smoothest playback is the common course of action here. The red line will turn green.

     

    Good luck and thanks for reporting on AE,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2010 9:01 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    This really sounds like a video card framebuffer memory issue. Premiere could have been programmed with any theoretical 50,000x50,000 max image size, but if your using the graphics card to process the video you are eventually going to hit a block where you dont have enough ram on your card to handle the two 32bit depth high rez images, as well as your framebuffers and whatever else is being held in there at the time. At some point the card runs out of memory and then it either automatically reverts to software mode or starts handing off the data to the cpu to move into its ram during processing. So it makes perfect sense that it would slow down at some point. That would really be a programmers question as to how Adobe wrote the software.

     

    I know in CS4 with my Axio system i can put up to 800x600 images in an NTSC timeline and they work perfectly in realtime. but if i add 1 more pixel then the line would turn red and effects would slow down.

     

    I remember AFX had a 4Kx4K resolution limit in the past also, Anyone know what it is now in CS5? As premiere is written on the after effects engine i would assume it to be the same.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2010 12:48 PM   in reply to digitlman

    I'll get a definitive answer about this from the engineers when we're back from vacation (on Monday), so you might want to hold the speculation until then.

     

    What I know for certain is that there are different limits to the frame dimensions for the CUDA acceleration compared to non-CUDA-accelerated frames.

     

    BTW, since After Effects was mentioned: The limit in After Effects is 30,000x30,000---both for composition frame size and footage item frame size. However, for OpenGL processing, the limit is much lower, and downsampling occurs. Knowing this is what makes me even more certain that there are different frame size limits in Premiere Pro depending on whether the GPU processing is engaged.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2010 7:19 PM   in reply to Todd_Kopriva

    It will be really good to get some answers on this. It has been a puzzle to me for quite a while. Even if performance is not affected in most cases, knowing the effects of large image size can give those of us who use stills a lot a better handle on appropriate standards.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2010 7:57 PM   in reply to Jerry.K

    Jerry.K,

     

    Whatever the max image size, one still needs to consider the quality of any Scaling, and should measure the quality of doing that Scaling in PS vs letting PrPro do it. So far, my eyes give a very strong nod to PS, but maybe things have changed, regarding the Scaling algorithms in PrPro. At least with PS, one has many more options, from which to choose.

     

    In the past, at least, this has been a situation where bigger was NOT better. Still, only the editor's eyes (or those of their clients) can be the final judge. For me, if I can tell the difference, then I have to assume that my clients can, as well.

     

    So, it's really a two-part question: the max still image size, and the quality of the Scaling algorithms in PrPro.

     

    Awaiting the definitive answers,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 8, 2010 1:30 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Bill, FYI Scaling with software MPE high quality is a Gaussian low pass sampled with a bilinear  filter. Software MPE max quality is a variable radius bicubic (based on  Photoshop code, but threaded and with some SSE). The practical benefit  of the max quality scale is it does a much better job at preserving fine  details. Hardware MPE always uses max quality.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 8, 2010 8:25 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm,

     

    That is very useful to know. Obviously, things have now improved, regarding Scaling in PrPro.

     

    Thanks for taking the time to explain how it's now done in CS5. That the PS algorithms are now being used, is a step in the right direction.

     

    Now, I would wonder a bit, about the time that this might add to the processes. Doing that Scaling in PS is almost instantaneous with Actions, so a nod might still go to that method. Maybe the first thing that I test, when I get up and running in CS5? I might have to do an addendum to my "Large Still Images... " article to account for CS5. I'll be sure to attribute those changes to you! [Maybe Adobe will see fit to add a little "something extra" to your pay envelope... ]

     

    Appreciated,

     

    Hunt

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 20, 2010 6:15 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Sorry it took so long, but here are some answers about maximum image sizes, including what the CUDA acceleration part of the Mercury playback engine can handle:

    http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2010/07/maximum_dimensions_ in_premiere.html

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 4, 2010 9:10 AM   in reply to {KMS}

    I too have this problem. I've  found larger images (generally 2000 x 2000 and higher) jpgs will cause  Premiere to completely stop and not respond for several minutes. It  often takes a restart just to get the computer back to full speed.

     

    Not  exactly running a slouch either...16 gb RAM, Windows 7, Quadro FX with  Mercury Support, Core i7-980x. The thing eats HD video for breakfast but  can't handle single images.

     

    Fix this Adobe, it's killing my workflow to have to manually resize images in Photoshop just to drop them onto a timeline.

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points