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indrak
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index number style override not working

Apr 21, 2010 11:21 PM

Whenever i generate an index, page numbers which have had a character style applied using the number style override option when tagged don't ever come through despite trying numerous different character styles.  Currently using CS4 but also had this problem with CS2.  Is this an actual bug in InDesign?  does anyone have a work around?

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 29, 2010 7:14 PM   in reply to indrak

    You are correct. "Number Style Override" does not work for books. I reported it to Adobe with the original CS, and the technical support person tried it and also discovered that indeed it didn't work. I upgraded to CS3 (version 5.0.4) because it was my understanding that many index problems had been fixed. But alas, Number Style Override still doesn't work. So Adobe either doesn't care to fix it or doesn't know how. It does work, however, if you're indexing a single file. The only workaround I know is to make sure the Page Number selection is set to a particular character style that you want for the ordinary page numbers, then find out what character style has been assigned by InDesign to the overrides (usually None). Then search for digits formatted with None and replace with the correct character style, such as boldface or italics to show a page reference for an illustration. Super laborious. If anyone can figure out a better way, please let us all know.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 8, 2010 5:16 PM   in reply to indrak

    Have there been any updates on this problem?  I'm using CS5 and still can't seem to make the number override feature for index entries work.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 13, 2012 4:48 PM   in reply to IndexPro

    this is working in our version of CS5 on Mac and PC for single docs. But for books of documents, we find we must add the override to each reference in both the original doc within the book that has the reference in it and also add the override  to the document that has the index in it.  this however is very tedious, and does seem to be a bug. with the full book selected it seems it should do this automatically. in short, unless we learn more, we have to agree this is not working.

     

    Message was edited by: ebookaffectionado on jan 13, 2012.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 22, 2012 12:31 PM   in reply to ebookaficionado

    New testing inspired by a discussion of this bug in the InDesign-Forum HilfDirSelbst seems to have brought up an "invers solution".

    – Define all normal index entries with "Override"/"[None]".

    – Define all special index entries without "Override".

    – In the Generate Index dialogue select the special character style for "Page Number".

    Now every page number will be special – except those, which are defined with Override.

    Works fine so far in books.

     

    Jochen Uebel

     

    Message was edited by: Jochen F. Uebel (grammar)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 22, 2012 2:58 PM   in reply to Jochen F. Uebel

    Thanks very much Jochen... if this works for us, we will be extremely grateful.

     

    I assume it will work with the computer facing North.

     

    --david

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 23, 2012 9:54 PM   in reply to Jochen F. Uebel

    Jochen, in another thread you write:

     

    It would be fine if this bug could be fixed too

    So, posting in that thread (or here) is not an effective way to get bugs fixed. It sounds like atartt attempted to report this bug to Adobe a decade ago, but that's not really relevant anymore.

     

    You should open a case with Adobe Support and get them to confirm your bug and give you a bug number. That's the way to go. That was done in the other thread you referred to.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 25, 2012 3:21 PM   in reply to Jochen F. Uebel

    This is a confirmation and another thanks to Jochan. we have tested this and it works for us. Also it seems that if they do make a new version with this bug fixed, that it will not break what we  have done using this nice trick.

    -----------------

    on a related topic:

    Seeing other notes here, I am not sure this is the right place to put it, but it is related at least in our current indexing project.

     

    we use mac and pc and now must transfer cs5 indd files back and forth. it seems that ones we make on the pc will not display the hidden characters when the file is moved to the mac.

     

    maybe we are doing something wrong... but if we do make a new indd file on the mac, they show fine. only don't show with files imported from the PC.

     

    the question is related because we are looking for the hidden characters that mark where the index tags have been placed.

     

    Any insight to this will be much appreciated. thanks. --david

     

     

    we have now posted this hidden character issue as a new topic  http://forums.adobe.com/thread/954395  but since we got such good help here we will leave this note as well.

     

    Message was edited by: ebookaficionado

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 25, 2012 10:00 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    thanks. we have reported this at this page: 

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform&promoid=E WQQL

     

    and we did receive a support ticket number, which was then automatically closed by Adobe.  we apparently have a way to check it or activate it again if that should be helpful

     

    Message was edited by: ebookaficionado

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 26, 2012 11:38 PM   in reply to ebookaficionado

    thanks. we have reported this at this page: 

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform&promoid=E WQQL

    The wishform is not a very effective way to deal with bugs. At best, your bug may be fixed and you won't find out about it. At worst, it may be lost or misunderstood or not fixed for some other reason.

     

    and we did receive a support ticket number, which was then automatically closed by Adobe.  we apparently have a way to check it or activate it again if that should be helpful

    I assume your support ticket was not from the wishform, because that's not generally how it works.

    A support ticket number is not a bug number. A bug number is 7 digits starting with "2" or "3." Support tickets case numbers are 10 digit numbers typically starting with "018" or "020."

     

    If you have a support ticket but they didn't give you the bug number, re-open the ticket and demand they provide it.

    If they did provide it and then closed the support ticket, you could periodically re-open it and re-inquire about the status of the bug.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 1:20 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    John Hawkinson wrote:

     

    The wishform is not a very effective way to deal with bugs. At best, your bug may be fixed and you won't find out about it. At worst, it may be lost or misunderstood or not fixed for some other reason.

     

    The hosts of indesignsecrets.com recently had a podcast where they interviewed an Adobe employee, who confirmed that the Wishlist/Bug form was continually reviewed by the Manager (can't remember exact title), and things are prioritised in order of importance.

     

    The Wishlist/Bug forum doesn't go unnoticed. Although, there may be other things of higher priority than this.

     

     

    I suggest that the OP visits the InDesign Feature Request forum too and report it there. As far as I know, the InDesign team frequents that area of the forum.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 27, 2012 1:41 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Eugene:

     

    Yes, Chris Kitchener, one of two Senior Product Managers for the InDesign product, reads every post to the InDesign wishform. Do you have any idea how many emails he gets not including those? It is not small. If many people report a problem via the wishform, it will get Chris' attention and he can get the bug fixed.

     

    I can assure you that while it may not go unread, it is emphatically not an effective way to get bugs fixed. Can you show me one person who can demonstrably prove a bug was fixed that way? (This is really hard, because even if you have a bug that was fixed and submitted via the wishform, you have no way to know if someone else didn't submit the same bug some other way.)

     

    I can assure you that I have had a lot of bugs fixed in InDesign (not hundreds, but certainly scores), and all of them have been by getting actual real bugs filed. In a substantial number of those cases, the path to getting those bugs fixed required significant two-way interaction. Supplying test files that demonstrate the problem, clarifying limitations in the product, correcting sub-optimal descriptions, haggling with the assigned QE engineer, haggling with the Development Engineer, etc. All of these are things that simply cannot happen with the one way interface that the wishform provides. (Also, I happen to be above-average at writing up bugs in a fashion that gets them fixed; but I've also had almost as many bugs not fixed. Deferred, reclassified as features, de-prioritized, unable-to-reproduce, really-really-hard, not-worth-fixing, etc.)

     

    Before I got involved with seriously filing bugs, I occasionally submitted bugs via the wishform. I don't think any of them ever got any traction.

     

    So while what you say is true, it is pragmatically useless. If you want your bug fixed, do not use the wishform. Open a support case and ensure you get a bug number. The chances of your bug getting fixed improve exponentially.

     

    I suggest that the OP visits the InDesign Feature Request forum too and report it there. As far as I know, the InDesign team frequents that area of the forum.

    Umm, how far is that? I don't think there is any reason to believe that they do, and there is reason to believe they do not.

     

    But you emphatically do not want your bug classified as a feature request. if it's classified as a bug, then QE and Dev will try to reproduce it and try to fix it without a big discussion. But if is classified as a feature request, it will go in a queue with thousands of other feature requests and product management will decide which ones are worth tackling for any product cycle. They'll try to make reasonable prorioritization decisions, of course, but the chances of any one feature being implemented just are not good. There is so much competition.

     

    That said, I doubt it does any harm, but your effort is much better devoted elsewhere.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 2:00 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    In regards to the Feature Request forum - it was also revealed in an interview with a different Adobe employee (can't remember names) that they did actually read the feature request forum.

     

    I remember this because they introduced Flash export and animations, and I had campaigned for a while there on getting footnotes to span columns. I was irrate to hear that they introduced Flash export but did nothing in improving footnotes, and I searched the feature request forum for the Flash Export and go 0 hits. But footnotes brought up several.

     

    I was unclear how they managed to include Flash export, but not improve footnotes!

     

     

     

    You're right though John, it's not enough to poke the cage once,  you have to rattle it.

     

    Open bug reports with Adobe, as you suggest.

     

    Write to bloggers about the bug, see if they'll blog about it, ask them to post links to the Wishlist, to open bug reports with Adobe.

     

    It's not enough for 1 person to report it! It takes a community to do that.

     

     

    Michael Murphy of theindesigner.com is proof that you have the really rattle the cage to get things done - http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/restore-style-mapping-presets-report -this-bug

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 27, 2012 2:30 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Eugene:

    In regards to the Feature Request forum - it was also revealed in an interview with a different Adobe employee (can't remember names) that they did actually read the feature request forum.

    I believe you are referring to the InDesign Secrets Podcast #151 interview with Douglas Waterfall, who is the Software Architect for InDesign CS6 and a programmer on the InDesign product. Around 21:06 into the podcast, the discussion is about the "feature request form on the adobe web site," not the "feature request forum." That is, he is referring to the aforementioned wishform, but not to the Forum.

     

    Write to bloggers about the bug, see if they'll blog about it, ask them to post links to the Wishlist, to open bug reports with Adobe. It's not enough for 1 person to report it! It takes a community to do that.

    Michael Murphy of theindesigner.com is proof that you have the really rattle the cage to get things done

    Err, well, I wouldn't quite go that far.

     

    My experience has been that no, it doesn't require a serious campaign to get a bug fixed once you get a bug number assigned. If it turns out that the bug is really hard to fix or quite complex, that is a different story. Note that the particular case Michael Murphy refers to is a bit more complicated -- not only did he want the bug fixed, he wanted the fix backported to CS4  after CS4 was released.

     

    That's a tall order -- normally bugs are fixed in the development tree, but they don't get backported to the current version, because that's substantial development work, and there is a very strong bias to making sure that a patch release never breaks the currently released product (whereas it's OK to break the development version, because there are months of time for QA testing to find those bugs and make sure it all works. And even then, well, look how much better 7.0.4 is than 7.0.0). In Michael's case, he already had a bug number, and I think the lobbying was much more about getting it into 6.0.4 as opposed to getting it into CS5 (7.0.0).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 3:03 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    It wasn't Douglas Waterfall, it was Michael Ninnis as far as I remember.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 3:05 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    It was that bug in CS4 that stopped me upgrading to CS4. It was only something like 6 or 3 months till CS5, so I waited.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 27, 2012 3:20 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    It wasn't Douglas Waterfall, it was Michael Ninnis as far as I remember.

    Oh, that was Quite Some Time Ago.

    If you look at back at the archives of the Feature Request Forum, you'll see that there was a time when Adobe employees did respond there. That doesn't seem to happen [much] anymore. And Michael has moved on to work for lynda.com.

     

    Still, you never know!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 3:57 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    It was when Adobe answers Critics about CS5 - but the post is inaccesible for me at the moment, the page times out.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 9:46 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Sorry we are new to use of the forum. i actually spoke with Adobe via chat and asked the best place to post this bug report and they gave me the  link i used.  here is then what i got back:

     

    Your Case Number:0207540360

     

    With this response, we believe your issue is resolved and have therefore closed your case 0207540360.  If your support case has not been completed to your satisfaction or you should you need to contact us on this issue again, please reference your case number. You can reopen your case up to 14 days after it has been closed.

     

    Hi David,

    Thank you for contacting Adobe Customer Service.

    Please find the below link to Report Bug:

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform&promoid=E WQQL

    If you have any issues please contact back us immediately, we will be happy to assist you round the clock.

    Thank you.

     

    the link they gave me back is in fact the one i originally used, which has both headings wish list and bug report. sounds from the disucssion that this is not the right place.  I will certainly do this another way if some one has the right link for me.

     

    (PS though new to the forum we are not new to indesign, but were driven to the forum when we learned that owning several full copies of cs5 for mac and pc did not qualify us for an upgrade to indesign 5.5 alone.)

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 27, 2012 2:06 PM   in reply to ebookaficionado

    Sorry we are new to use of the forum. i actually spoke with Adobe via chat and asked the best place to post this bug report and they gave me the  link i used.

    Hmm. I would say you had been snookered.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 2:10 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Again, if someone would give us the right link to use we will do it over. No problem.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
    5,572 posts
    Jun 25, 2009
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    Jan 27, 2012 2:20 PM   in reply to ebookaficionado

    I think you need to lean on the support guys you talked to on your existing

    case and tell them you want a bug number.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 27, 2012 4:19 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    i double checked the form again.  there are two promient check boxes, feature request or bug report.  we pressed bug report, then the form says expain the bug you are reporting, which we did. and then they sent us a number.

     

    i think this is all we will be doing on this for now. If we run into a real show stopper we will follow your good suggestion and press harder... for now we have other bugs to fry, such as getting hidden characters to show when we import a pc file into a mac. thanks again.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 27, 2012 7:19 PM   in reply to Jochen F. Uebel

    I just comnpleted testing two things in the Index for a rather large book (400 pages, 16 chapters/files). Here are my findings and musings:

     

    First, the "Number style override" works fine only if you define it in the document with the index! If you define it in the source document, when you look at it in the index document the override is checked, but the style is the default (no character style). That tells me that the place that it is printed is where the override needs to be. My specula6tion, although I have not yet tried it, is that when the character styles are not in the same order in all document files, InDesign loses the correct styele and defaults to no style.

     

    Next, I noticed in the index document that the style listed for the type when you specify "Next use of Style" was also "no style". However, in this case, you need to make sure the type is correct in the source document, not the index document. If you try to set it in the index document, the source document becomes "No Style" and usually that means the last page number becomes the last page of the document.

     

    So, my musings are that the indexing sweeps through the documents picking up all the reference numbers, then createds the index in the index document using the number overrides in that document. I believe it is because the styles, both paragraph and character, are assumed to be in the same order and when it does not find a match, it apploes "No Style." I haven't tested that yet. But I do know that "Synchronizing the selected documents" does not change the orderof the styles, and does not help these  problems.

     

    Possibly this will help others to work around the problem until they get it fixed.

     
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