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Export HD to NTSC Widescreen -- not truly 16:9

Explorer ,
Aug 14, 2010 Aug 14, 2010

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If you export HD footage, 1080x1920 for example, to NTSC Widescreen, you end up with 720x480 with rectangular pixels that have a 1.2121 pixel aspect ratio. That means, the display is effectively 873x480 pixels, which is a a screen aspect ratio of about 16.4:9 instead of 16:9. What you end up with is the original video image squashed between thin, vertical black bars on the right and left sides (not the thick black bars you get when you display a 4:3 video in a 16:9 display).

If you open the video in an NTSC Widescreen Sequence, you'll see those black bars. The video image does not fill the screen.

This is easily fixed: change the Scale Width value to 102.3 (uncheck Uniform Scale). That puts the image portion of the clip into the proper aspect ratio (and shoves the black bars off the left and right sides of the screen). But I'd rather change the scale of all the clips in a project.

Since NTSC has to be 720x480 pixels, if you want to display something at a 16:9 ratio, the pixel aspect ratio should be 1.185 instead of 1.2121.

Perhaps an Adobe engineer can explain why exporting HD to NTSC Widescreen creates a video with black vertical bars and how a 720x480 (with rectangular pixels with a 1.2121 aspect ratio) clip can be considered as having a 16:9 aspect ratio.

Thanks,

Jeff Sengstack

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Contributor , Jun 07, 2011 Jun 07, 2011

Hi Jeff,

I just run accross your post. It is old, but I recently was running in the same problems as you. It was hard to get things straight for me, but finally I found a German paper that explained everything just to the point.

16:9 = 1,777...

HD uses square pixels (PAR=1.0) and if you check the two most common HD video sizes and take your calculator 1920:1080=1,777... and 1280:720=1,777.... So both of them are 16:9 formats. (Exactly we would calculate 1920 (pixel) x 1.0 (PAR) : 1280 (pixel) x 1.0

...

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LEGEND ,
Aug 14, 2010 Aug 14, 2010

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Since NTSC has to be 720x480 pixels, if you want to display something at a 16:9 ratio, the pixel aspect ratio should be 1.185 instead of 1.2121.

Dude, I came up with the same answer.  Despite some offered explanations, I find it hard to ignore the math here.  16 divided by 9 = 1.777.  Multiply that by 480 and you get a square pixel "widescreen" resolution of of 853.333.  Divide that by the 720 you're limited to and we end up with the correct PAR of 1.185.

I don't get why that's not recognized.

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Engaged ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Adobe does it the right way. A PAR of 1.185 will give a slightly distorted image in DV widescreen. This was fixed in CS4.  It can be very confusing, but the root of the matter is that a DV frame is not really 4:3 or 16:9 - there is some padding at the sides (18 pixels) that wasn't intended to be part of the visible frame. HD footage doesn't have these extra pixels, so when you go from HD to SD, you see these little pillars on the side. You can change the PAR is you want, but the result is slighly distorted - fatter - than reality. These links can explain it much better than I can:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tvbranding/picturesize.shtml

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/AfterEffects/9.0/WS3878526689cb91655866c1103906c6dea-7f3aa.html

http://www.lynda.com/home/Player.aspx?lpk4=40550

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Community Expert ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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These black vertical bars are easily fixed in the export settings.

On the top left hand side you will find CROP.

Crop a few pixels of the top and bottom to make it fit.

For PAL its 13 by 13.

After cropping you can check it in the output window.

crop on export.png

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Ann,

I do not think cropping leads to the desired result.

When you crop in the Export Settings dialog box, you are cropping the image area. So, when you export HD to NTSC Widescreen, you still end up with video that has those two vertical black bars. And if you cropped the left and right sides, that will simply expand the width of the vertical black bars. If you crop only the top and bottom, you still get those vertical black bars plus end up cutting off image area at the top and bottom.

The goal is to not have those vertical black bars that P Pro adds to HD footage when exporting to NTSC Widescreen.

Jeff

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Community Expert ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Sengstack wrote:

Ann,

I do not think cropping leads to the desired result.

When you crop in the Export Settings dialog box, you are cropping the image area. So, when you export HD to NTSC Widescreen, you still end up with video that has those two vertical black bars. And if you cropped the left and right sides, that will simply expand the width of the vertical black bars. If you crop only the top and bottom, you still get those vertical black bars plus end up cutting off image area at the top and bottom.

The goal is to not have those vertical black bars that P Pro adds to HD footage when exporting to NTSC Widescreen.

Jeff

Just try it, it works. Those few pixels you will hardly miss.

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Ann,

I tried it before sending you my response.

If  you trim 25 lines (as you did) then you end up with an image that fits  in the NTSC widescreen 16:9 format. So, I can't disagree with your  approach in terms of avoiding the black, vertical rectangles.

On  the other hand, I don't want to slice 2.3% (25 lines / 1080) of my image away. Your  approach, in effect, equals the Motion effect, Scale Width 102.3 (2.3% increase in width) approach I  mentioned in my initial email.

Both instances are work-arounds but neither answers the larger question of why those black bars appear in the first place.

Jeff

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Advocate ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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I really like that Lynda video.

http://www.lynda.com/home/Player.aspx?lpk4=40550

They really have some good videos.

Thanks Bill :  GLenn

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LEGEND ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Adobe does it the right way.

I'm still not seeing that myself.

A PAR of 1.185 will give a slightly distorted image in DV widescreen.

According to the math, it provides a prefect, properly sized image. In fact, in order to crop a 16:9 image into a proper 1.85 film aspect*, you need to use the proper math listed earlier.  Using the current PAR, you'll end up cropping too little.

*(Another technocrat error, if you ask me, was making HD such a weird aspect ratio.  All they needed was to lose 20 extra pixels (1920 x 1040) to get the proper 1.85:1 aspect ratio of film.)

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Bill,

I checked out the three sites you listed and none explained this issue clearly. They touch on PARs and resolution, but don't explain P Pro's export behavior (two are on After Effects and they don't discuss exporting to other formats). Perhaps you can clarify some points:

1) The DV frame. When working in NTSC DV (widescreen or standard definition), the pixels we see in the Program Monitor in P Pro or any NLE are 720x480. The easy way to note that is to look at the Motion effect, Position parameter. The center point is 360/240. So, are you saying that P Pro truncates two 9 pixel wide vertical rectangles from each side when it displays the video in the Program and Source Monitors? Are you saying that the actual DV frame is 738x480?

2) HD to NTSC Widescreen export. If P Pro is able to truncate those 9-pixel wide vertical lines to create a clearn display, why doesn't it truncate them when displaying HD footage that has been exported to NTSC Widescreen? Or, conversely, why doesn't P Pro have an option to export HD to NTSC such that the 720x480 image area is all that ends up in the AVI file (and not include the two vertical, 9-pixel wide bars)?

3) P Pro displays those 720x480 pixels with a .91 pixel aspect ratio in standard definition and 1.2121 in widescreen. Effectively NTSC SD has a resolution of 655.2 x 480 and NTSC widescreen is 827.7x480. So the SD screen aspect ratio is not 4:3, it is 4.095 to 3. And NTSC widescreen is not truly 16:9, it is 16.36 to 9. Can you clarify that?

4) You said you can change the PAR in the export settings. I tried that and it did not work. I used the Uncompressed Microsoft AVI format with Video set to 720x480, Progressive, and with an Aspect of 1.185 to 1 (I chose 1.185 but the display in the Video tab of the Export Settings dialog box shows only whole numbers). The resulting video had a pixel aspect ratio of 1.0 and an data rate of 26.6 MB/sec -- about 7 times the data rate for standard MS AVI. In my NTSC Widescreen Sequence, the clip did not fill the screen and had black bars at the top and bottom. So...How do you export with a PAR of something other than the standard PARs in the Export presets?

Thanks,

Jeff Sengstack

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Engaged ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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As I said, it gets confusing, and I'm not an expert - that's why I provided links.  I can perhaps try to answer some of the points you brought up however;

1) The DV frame is always 720 x 576 (PAL). It's just not exactly 4;3 or 16;9. 702x576 will give those exact aspect ratios, and is in the same proportion as HD frames. HD reduced to DV will only use 702 pixels across. to not distort the image. 720x 576 is a little wider than 4;3 or 16;9.

2) There's no truncating. It's just that HD 1920x1080 is a slightly narrower rectangle than DV widescreen, so it doesn't quite fit right when reduced proportionaly.

3) It's Sunday night and I'm on holiday. No math tonight.

4) Ann Bens provided an easy way to avoid the bars.  It does distort the image a little, but it's barely noticeable. The other way is to enlarge the image a few percent when transcoding in AME. (I'm not at my editing PC right now, and I forget the details). This might increase rendering time, but I can't say for sure. That doesn't quite answer your last question, I know.

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Hi Bill,

I appreciate that you're maxed out on this. Couple that with the fact that you are the only one who has tried to explain the inner workings of P Pro. So my hat's off to you on that.

I'm thinking I'll post this query on a prerelease forum and we'll see if any Adobe engineers weigh in on it.

I'll toss out a couple follow-up points in case anyone wants to respond:

1) I'm talking only about NTSC here. Perhaps PAL behaves similarly, but I have not examined that format.

2) HD 1920x1080 is exactly a 16:9 format.NTSC Widescreen is supposed to be 16:9. So why doesn't P Pro export HD such that it exactly fits into the NTSC 16:9 format. Neither the export cropping work-around described by Ann or the Motion effect Scale Width approach I described should be necessary.

3) You talked about NTSC's frame being 18 pixels wider than the image area as a cause of this discrepancy. I think that might be backwards logic. We are exporting from HD to NTSC. If we were going from NTSC to HD, then I suppose those extra 9 pixels per side would have to be dealt with. But that's not the workflow here.

Jeff

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Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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I'm sorry that I can't get into this thread in depth right now. It's Sunday evening, and I've got three minutes before my wife and I need to leave to meet friends for dinner. But I can at least point to the page that I wrote to deal with these questions for After Effects CS4:

http://blogs.adobe.com/toddkopriva/2009/07/pixel-aspect-ratios-in-after-e.html

Premiere Pro CS4 had the same PARs as After Effects CS4, so it seems odd that this is only coming up in the Premiere Pro context now.

The one thing that I'll say before running off is that you have to do your frame aspect ratio calculations based on the image area (clean aperture) not the production aperture. It's the failure to make that distinction that caused all of this confusion in the first place.

Oh, and note that the Foundry and Apple are using the corrected PARs now, too.

If this conversation is still going on tomorrow afternoon (when I emerge from a day of meetings) I'll see if I can help clear up any remaining questions.

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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Todd,

Thanks for checking in on this. I read your blog and visited the links. Most linked articles focused on converting square pixel graphics or image files to non-square pixels. None, that I could see, answered the question that I raised at the outset. So, I'll rephrase it: When I export HD to Microsoft AVI -- NTSC Widescreen, why are there 16 columns of black pixels (eight on a side) in the visible area of the AVI file as I view it in P Pro's Source and Program monitors?

I think I understand the discussion about clean aperture versus production aperture, such that the actual image information is stored within 704 vertical lines within the 720 vertical lines of the entire frame. But if I look at SD DV AVI files captured straight from the camcorder, P Pro displays color information in all 720 vertical lines visible in the Source and Program monitors. There are no black columns. This despite the explanations stating that the actual image area is 704 vertical lines. So, when P Pro displays DV, does it take those 704 vertical lines and interpolate them into 720?

Since NTSC Widescreen AVI clips captured straight from a camcorder are also 720x480 pixels, aren't they displayed the same way...with no black bars along the sides?

So...why is it that when exporting HD to Microsoft AVI -- NTSC Widescreen, P Pro squashes the image area, such that when it plays in P Pro, the video image area in the Program monitor is limited to 704 vertical lines and we see the the remaining 16 black vertical lines. Is P Pro creating a different kind of AVI file than I would get if I shot widescreen DV and captured that as an AVI file?

I would prefer that P Pro export HD to MS AVI -- NTSC Widescreen and fill all 720 visible vertical lines with color information rather then toss in 16 black vertical columns.

Jeff

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Engaged ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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>>>2) HD 1920x1080 is exactly a 16:9 format.NTSC Widescreen is supposed to be 16:9.

This is the heart of the matter - NTSC Widescreen (and PAL widescreen) is not 16:9 - it is 16:9 plus a few pixels on the sides.  Thus it is not the same shape as an HD frame. Imagine the slightly skinnier HD frame zooming down into the NTSC (or PAL) widescreen frame. At some point the top and bottom of both frames will exactly align, but the shrunken HD frame, being a little skinnier, will not fill the smaller frame at the sides.

Now in order to avoid the gap at the sides, you could not shrink the HD frame as much, but this will cause the loss of some of the image at the top and the bottom.  (I wish I could draw a picture right now).  Adobe, and others, have decided that the black pillars at the side are preferable to chopping the image.

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Explorer ,
Aug 15, 2010 Aug 15, 2010

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So, why then do those extra frames on the sides not show up when you capture widescreen DV from a camcorder but show up when you export HD to Microsoft AVI NTSC Widescreen?

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Engaged ,
Aug 16, 2010 Aug 16, 2010

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It's because thay are not extra frames - it's just that since the HD frame is not the same shape as the DV frame, it doesn't fill it all the way; it leaves a little on the side when it is reduced.  Since widescreen DV footage is recorded in the camera as 720 x 576 (or whatever for NTSC), there's no reduction, and of course it fills all 720 pixels across.

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Guest
Aug 16, 2010 Aug 16, 2010

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This thread came up when researching the problem I am attempting to deal with. I have read all the linked articles and have a basic understanding of PAR and the related issues. I am attempting to convert 1920x1880 (PAR 1.0) footage to DV PAL Widescreen and also get the left and right vertical black bars. Of more concern to me is this: I did a test where I carefully superimposed the Safe Margins on the orginal HD footage before the conversion. After the conversion to PAL Widescreen I noticed that the horizontal Safe Margins were perfect, but the vertical (left right) margins had shrunk by about the same width as the black bars, showing that the DV picture was now squished horizontally from the original.

My product is educational and the adherance to correct Safe Margins, particularly Safe Title, is critical. This also means that additional materials (like menus) created for the DV in DVD frame sizes do not line up with converted footage.

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Guide ,
Aug 16, 2010 Aug 16, 2010

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I had a project that was shot 16:9 dv ntsc. At some point it was worth my trying to export this project as 16:9 using a 4:3 space...and  FORCE a letterbox type of frame space in the final product. Which did leave black on top and bottom, but didn't distort the video or have black bars on left and right.

To do this I made a new project at 4:3, and put the 16:9 footage in that project and scaled the 16:9 down to fit the frame left and right. ( leaving the black bars on top and bottom). exporting THAT got me what I wanted in the final product for that particular situation.

Weird, but it worked. Not sure if this clicks with anyone dealing with this problem here, but worth mentioning

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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NTSC Widescreen (and PAL widescreen) is not 16:9 - it is 16:9 plus a few pixels on the sides.

It would seem that may be so only because an incorrect PAR is used.  Were it the proper 1.185, I can't see where extra pixels would be required.  (Well, maybe part of one to get it up to the full 854.)

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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you have to do your frame aspect ratio calculations based on the image area (clean aperture) not the production aperture.

That is a question I still have.  Unless I misunderstand those terms, it seems that with digital video, there is no need to distinguish between the two.  With DV, you get the whole image, visible and "clean".  Seems like the distinction is only really necessary for older analog systems.  So why is that applied to digital video where it isn't necessary, and thus provides incorrect aspect?

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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Seems like the distinction is only really necessary for older analog systems.  So why is that applied to digital video where it isn't necessary

Unless I'm mistaken, it's all about broadcast, broadcast, broadcast per the BBC standard.

-Jeff

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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Seems like the distinction is only really necessary for older analog systems.  So why is that applied to digital video where it isn't necessary

Unless I'm mistaken, it's all about broadcast, broadcast, broadcast per the BBC standard.

Additional to that, remember that digital video recording predates digital broadcasting and digital displays. In other words, digital video (DV) was originally destined for analog broadcasting to analog TV sets; to compensate for that, the whole production vs. clean aperture thing got swirled into the mix.

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Explorer ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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With all the back and forth on this, I still don't understand what's going on in P Pro, "under-the-hood," such that when converting from HD to NTSC Widesreen, vertical black bars show up on the left and right edges of the visible area of the AVI clip. No one has yet addressed this transcoding process. If we see 720 columns (I'll use "columns" to avoid confusion with horizontal "lines") of image information in DV whether SD or Widescreen (we don't see any vertical black bars even though they are part of the clip), how come we don't see 720 columns of image information in a clip after converting it from HD to NTSC Widescreen? Why do we see only 704 columns of image information plus two visible, 8-pixel wide, vertical black bars on each side? I follow-up on this question at the end of this note.

But first:

As for displaying DV NTSC SD or Widescreen, I think the following sums up what's been posted here:

DV (SD or Widescreen, NTSC or PAL) has only 704 vertical columns of image area (plus 8 columns off each of the right and left edges that are not supposed to be visible -- 720 columns total).

To display those columns in a standard definition, 4:3 frame aspect ratio, P Pro shrinks the width of the columns by multiplying them by 10/11: 704 * 10/11 = 640). The excess 8 vertical columns on a each side (now slightly narrower as a result of the width reduction) are out of sight and out of mind (even if you scale the clip to less than 100%, P Pro truncates those black bars from the visible area of the clip). So what we see on TV or in our P Pro monitors is an image that is 640 units wide and 480 units tall (a 4:3 frame aspect ratio). P Pro still considers the visible area of the clip as being 720 pixels wide (as evidenced in the Motion effect). And on NTSC or PAL TV sets, it's still 720 pixels wide, because TV set pixels are non-square (and again, the 8 extra vertical columns on the left and right sides are not visible on TVs sets or computer monitors).

When displaying those 704 columns in widescreen (16:9 frame aspect ratio), P Pro expands the width of the columns by multiplying them by 40/33 (1.212.....) as in: 704 * 40/33 = 853.3. So the resulting visible area of the clip is 853.3 units by 480 units (a 16:9 frame aspect ratio). And again, those 8 columns on each side (now a bit wider due to the width expansion) are not visible.


So, back to the question at the top of this note: Why doesn't P Pro take HD clips, which start their lives in a 16:9 frame aspect ratio, and convert them to NTSC Widescreen such that the resulting clip has 704 columns of visible image information (and 16 non-visible black columns)? In that way, 1920 vertical columns would be interpolated to 704 vertical columns and those columns would be 480 pixels tall. And as part of the conversion process, 8 extra, non-visible vertical columns would be added to each side of the resulting clip.

That, to me, is the crux of this discussion. Since P Pro, other NLEs, video playback software like Media Player, and TV sets all "hide" the two sets of 8 pixel-wide vertical columns (black bars) when displaying NTSC SD or Widescreen, why doesn't P Pro transcode HD to NTSC Widescreen such that those 8 extra lines are not visible in the resulting file?

Jeff

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Community Expert ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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Actually the black bars is empty space. The background shows as black.

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