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LCCS vs Red 5 vs FMS 4 ENTERPRISE

Oct 20, 2010 4:32 PM

Hi,

I'd like to know the differences vs LCCS, Red 5, and FMS 4 Enterprise.

 

It seems like the difference between LCCS and FMS 4 Enterprise is the way we pay, with FMS, we give a one-time big payment, whereas in LCCS, we 'pay-per-use', but it has the same features like RTMFP, RTMFP groups, RTMP fallback etc.

 

Red 5 though, it seems like they are also using RTMFP, but it's free... so I am not sure if I should switch my Cirrus(Stratus) application to Red 5 or LCCS. (FMS 4 Enterprise is out of the question for now anyway, too expensive for me at the moment)

 

Thanks for answers.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 20, 2010 5:09 PM   in reply to Chicohuman

    The big difference between FMS 4 and LCCS is that with FMS 4 you get the server and need to build your own clustering infrastructure (if you think you need multiple servers) and host it yourself. Also you need to build your own FMS application and the interaction between client and server (and don't forget the connection/reconnection logic and a bunch of other "magic" that is needed for reliable communication). LCCS is an "application" built on top of FMS and a set of well defined collaboration APIs.

     

    Of course LCCS implements one set of collaboration primitives based on publisher/subscriber methodology and exposes a subset of the streaming capabilities of FMS (audio, webcam and screenshare only) so if you need to stream videos (like movies) or you need a lot more interaction with the communication server or between the communication server and your own services you do need to look at FMS.

     

    Regarding Red5, you shouldn't ask us but for what I know they do NOT support RTMFP. Also, Red5 is a Java application while FMS is a native application so while Red5 is free you may have higher costs of hosting it vs. hosting FMS (and of course if you use LCCS we do the hosting and scaling for you).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 20, 2010 5:23 PM   in reply to Chicohuman

    That would be the fastest and easiest way for you to go.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 20, 2010 6:36 PM   in reply to Chicohuman

    Hi,

     

    Our LCCS SDK (player 10 swc) supports p2p audio/video using RTMFP as well as the seamless auto fall back mechanism when any user has rtmp connection/firewall/less than flash player 10. However, we do put a limit on the number of streams that you can do p2p in our player 10 swc. That’s for client stability and bandwidth.

    However, you can change that limit in your source code and see how it behaves.

     

    Our player 10.1 SDK does support p2p using multicast and NetGroups( since groups are available only with player 10.1). So, in case you want to use multicast groups, player 10.1 SDK might suit you better. Though  its still kind of in beta and we don't provide the source for 10.1 , so debugging might be an issue. However, we have fixed some known bugs in last few weeks and its going to get updated with those fixes within next few weeks. So, you might want to try our 10.1 swc. Still, we won't provide the source in coming release. I provided a temporary build too in one of my earlier forum posts.

     

    Also, a point to note is that we don't support screenshare using p2p and only support audio/camera. Looking at your requirement, I would suggest LCCS works best among all the technologies you mentioned.

     

    Thanks

    Regards

    Hironmay Basu

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2011 3:46 PM   in reply to Hironmay

    Hi Hironmay,

    I have build a prototype app using LCCS. The end-product is a video-chat app mixed with shared whiteboard etc.. on multiple platfroms IOS, win, MAC etc...

     

    Since I am in Australia (and my clients/users) I thought of purchasing FMS 4.5 because:

    1. LATENCY

    2. Ability to record video chats on Streaming Server (FMS)

     

    but then I loose the whole LCCS capability (LCCS is built on top of FMS right???)

     

    Can I only have the LCCS libraries fi I use Adobe's Hosting of FMS - which means Latgency issues and no recording etc...?

     

    Thanks

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2011 7:52 PM   in reply to jacograaff

    We actually support recording now (it's been available in beta form for a while and release a few months ago).

     

    How much latency do you experience with LCCS ?

     

    LCCS is built on top of FMS but currently we don't release the server-side application (and in any case the application has large ties with our controlling application server, that in turn has some ties with other Adobe services so it would need a lot of cleanup to make it work standalone anyway)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2011 9:48 PM   in reply to Raff.

    Hi Raff - I did some tests on pc and mac platfrom but want to move to mobile platform as well - You guys still have a mobile strategy??? - I am sorry but html 5 is YEARS of from having the functionality I have with flex/flash and streaming server

     

    The reason I choose flex is because I can built interactive app and deploy on Mac OSX, Windows, IOS, Android (hopefully Windows Mobile 8) - and have capability to interact with cameras. (as opposed to java, object C and C#/wpf seperately for each platform)

     

     

    Also rich UI components is very important

     

    The reason I am looking at FMS 4.5 is

     

    1) Install locally - Peer to peer might not be an issue with RTMfP - but if I want to record on server (video from end-user and Consultant while they chat) I have to use RTMP - throught the server - now if both my end-users are in Australia - streaming through a US-based data-center does not make sense - latency is an issue especially with live video chat and interactive whiteboard. According to just basic ping/traceroute-tests in the magnitude of 10 times slower. I get 16ms responds-time from local servers while US-based servers returns 220ms+

     

    2) Bandwidth - I can host on a datacenter/ Virtual Private Network where I have a 100M direct pipe into the datacentre - through Telstra - our local TelcomPreviouslyStateOwned-Monopoly. Bandwidth between my consultants and the server hosting FMS is therefore not counted and blazing fast.

     

    3) Recording and control - I would like to record the video chat between End-User and consultant and compile into one video stream for later retreaval by end-users. I also whant to sync the interactions on the interactive whiteboard, gant's charts etc.. for later retrieval. The ide is that an end-user can have a truly interactive bookmark, to review previous sessions.

     

    4) It would make sense to save recorded video on a dedicated storage/file server - latency is not an issue in this case because it is not live but streamed - also a user might only access it once or twice per year - so the cost of storage is low.

     

    5) I have ownership over stored video, etc.. - If Adobe decides to pull the plug on flash,FMS,LCCS , like they did with Director, Freehand (still feel the pain), etc.. then at least I will have access to all my backed-up video and data.

     

    The reason to go for LCCS

     

    the functionality built on top of FMS - I don't have to re-invent/develop the functionality that already exists and works so nice

     

     

    warning - RANT:

     

    I used Macromedia Director as a main platform for interactive development from 1993 to 2004 - I had huge hopes for the 3d capabilities introduced by intel's 3d engine etc.. as well as SHOCKWAVE MULTIUSER SERVER - I build solutions for clients/platforms that had to last for years (they were not happy when the news came director is not being aggressively developed by adobe anymore - developement all but stopped around 2002) - suddenly all development and updates was stopped  - it took flash a long time to support some of the abilities I had with director (3d, advanced video with alpha, multiuser support, integrated local database without client install [3rd part]) - I could run a Director app from a cd without installing anything on the client - There was a whole ecosystem of plugins to allow integration with platforms - With flash/flex/air I still need to install air-runtime before able to run a decent app.

     

    So I am a bit scared using Adobe solutions - (e.g. plugin for web-based support of flash on mobiles is gone, and now the rumours of LCCS being downscaled)

     

    Now we are seeing the same thing with HTML5 - an archaic ui development environment, no advanced multimedia features, etc.. etc... GONE the abilty to use concepts like nested movie clips or xmlns - like Microsoft XAML - fantastic for designer developer workflow - shortens dev. time and opens up ability to create fantastic ui components because no expensive four-times the manhours of a hardcore developer that has no passion for ui......

     

    end RANT

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2011 10:08 PM   in reply to jacograaff

    So, what is the question ?

     

    I understand your points and they are all valid, but I am not sure of how we can help. If you want to move to FMS 4.5, please go ahead, but again, we will not be able to help you move from LCCS to your own application.

     

    Regarding the current state of LCCS and the mobile strategy, read the other post that is currently floating at the top of the forum.

     

    But just to give you some point to point answers:

     

    1) ping and traceroute mainly tell you how long it takes to establish a connection. To measure the correct latency and/or network throughtput you should measure the data transfer on an RTMP/RTMFP or equivalent connection (but yes, it's faster if you are going to a local server vs. a server on the other side of the world )

     

    3) this is what recording does

     

    4) actually what we do is: FMS stores the recording locally while it's being broadcasted, then when you stop the recording we "zip up" all the file and send you the zip file.

         If you want to playback we'll ask for the zip back, unpack it and stream it. But if you want to manipulate the audio/video file, just unzip the archive, grab them and edit them or play them back locally (the data stuff is there too, in its own flv file, but it's a little harder to access and requires part of the LCCS "machiner" to play it back)

     

    5) see 4 You own the files, they are on your servers and you can do whatever you want with them.

     

    Again, I am not trying to push you one way or another. Just explaining how LCCS work (and show that we put some thought on how it works ). But at the end of the day you'll have to chose between something that is ready to go (but far away and with an uncertain future) and rebuilding your app from scratch (but gain full control on all the components).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2011 11:04 PM   in reply to Raff.

    Hi Raff - thanks for the feedback

     

    It helps a lot - Every app is diferent and it is sometimes difficult to map generally stated capbilities on a hihger level with what I actually want my app to do.

     

    I'll have to look into how the recording works - Ideally I want the user session interaction to be available with the end-user and mix it with my own custom controls.

     

    E.g. - a user chats with consultant, while doing some whiteboard stuff (with additional functionailty like upload image/grab still from webcam front-facing camera on iPad - and make some marks on it) and texting

     

    WHILE

     

    using my own gant's chart and spreadsheet component that uses RTMP (LCCS) capability to make truly realtime collaborative - end-user does stuff and Consultants maybe changes and corrects...

     

    End -user makes a bookmark _ leaves a note (will have to be stored on my local database) - but the interaction is linked with the timecode in video/audio +

     

     

    LATER..

     

    end-user looks at his gant's chart and whats reminder of Consultants suggestion at that time - clicks - video pops up and plays/streams from timecode 2min50s with text typed at that moment in time...

     

     

     

    LCCS has a lot of the functionality but not all - specifically the realtime creation of "rooms" etc..

     

    For me to make the decision I need see to what extend I can retrieve and use session information from the zip files you send me

     

    I gusess I can't do that with the developer account I'm using on my prototype.

     

    Can I get and example zip file to see what is inside a recorded video + session package.

     

    Thanks again

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 14, 2011 7:56 AM   in reply to jacograaff

    Actually you can use all the functionalities with the free account. In order to test recording you need to provide an internet accessible WebDAV server (but Apache or Tomcat would do it and we provide documentation on how to configure those two to support recording) and "register" you server URL with our service.

     

    You can actually also create rooms realtime (but again, you need to do this from an application server. We don't allow "administrative" operations from a pure Flash/Flex client.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 1:53 AM   in reply to Raff.

    Hi Raff,

     

    Thanks for your comments.

     

    Are you saying that LCCS is built on top of FMS "ALONE" ?

    Or is it that FMS is one of the peices in the puzzle?

     

    For supporting large number of user, one node solution will be a no no for us.

    We definitely need to have some clustered solution.

    My first impression was that there is LCDS/BlazeDS also somewhere in the puzzle and you

    use that to cluster your servers.

     

    Anyway, I would like to know how we can do the clustering, load balancing and failovers?

     

    Regards

     
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