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conniez68
Currently Being Moderated

Tired of color desat when opening in Bridge/Lightroom. HELP!

Oct 27, 2010 7:34 AM

I am going insane in my attempt to keep consistent color management through all areas. Everything was fine, color was great, prints were matched to calbration, monitor calibrated, and then....I rebooted the computer since I hadn't done so for a week, and when I restarted Bridge, and Lightroom (yields same results), the color immediately drains from the photos. Similar to the screenshot, however when I initially created this screenshot, Bridge was still accepting the color. Now, the desaturation exists in all Adobe programs. (PS CS5, camera raw, bridge , lightroom 3.  I feel like I'm going in circles here. I have no clue what could have changed with the reboot. One thing I have noticed is that in Window before a photo image is generated in a folder is shows as a paint pallette. And, when asked in Windows Color Management of the program I would like to use to install a profile, I am give Microsoft Color Management System (which to my understanding is designed for Vista or XP). Tried to delete the program but was denied. Not sure if that has anything to do with it either.

 

If you have any insight and can help me stop the madness I would be so greatly appreciative!!

 

Thanks!

 

Windows7

U2410 Dell Ultra Sharp Monitor

Photoshop CS5 64-bit

Adobe Lightroom 3

Camera RAW

Adobe Bridge

NIVIDIA FX 580

Screenshot.jpg

colormanagement.jpg

WindowsColorManagement.jpg

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 27, 2010 10:12 AM   in reply to conniez68

    Hi Connie,

     

    Could you confirm that the colors in this image only look desaturated in the Adobe applications?  If you open this image in internet explorer, for example, does it appear to have the same appearance as it does inside of the Adobe applications now?

     

    I notice that "Use Windows display calibration" is checked on in your screenshot.  Are you calibrating your monitor through the OS or using a 3rd party calibration device?  Would you mind confirming that the profile you expect to be applied to the monitor is set as the default in the "Devices" tab of the color management dialog window?  The profile should appear in the device's profile menu with "(default)" tagged to the end of its name.

     

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 4, 2010 10:27 AM   in reply to conniez68

    Hi Connie,

     

    Have you had any luck with this issue yet?

     

    Could you tell me what type of tools you're using to calibrate your monitor?  I think a user mentioned this on a different thread, but it looks like this might be related to calibration issues with wide gamut monitors, which could have an effect on color managed applications.  Are you calibrating the monitor with a 3rd party calibration tool, or are you using a manufacturer supplied display profile?

     

    Thanks

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 8, 2010 3:50 PM   in reply to conniez68

    Are your image files properly tagged?  I. e. do they have the correct color profile actually embedded in them?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 9, 2010 10:16 AM   in reply to conniez68

    Hi Connie,

     

    I read the forum thread link you posted.  On the surface it sounds like your images are appearing less saturated in color managed applications because their embedded profiles are being respected and converted from the embedded profile to the monitor space instead of having the RGB numbers in the images interpreted directly to the monitor space.

     

    This could still potentially explain the issue for both a wide-gamut and a non-wide gamut monitor across different OS's, although I would think it might be more pronounced on a wide-gamut monitor.

     

    This could also occur in a situation where images are untagged.

     

    Could you tell me whether you're images are tagged or untagged, and if they are tagged what color profile they are being tagged with?

     

    Here's how you can tell whether something is tagged or not in Photoshop (this is just one of a few different methods for finding this):

     

    1. Open your image.

    2. Window > Info, or hit the F8 key to open the Info panel.

    3. Click on the menu options button in the top right corner of the info panel (looks like a triangle pointing down with three horizontal lines next to it) and enter Panel Options...

    4. Under the Status Information section, uncheck all of the boxes, and then only check on "Document Profile", hit [OK].

     

    The info panel should now give you a readout of what your current document's profile is (it should say something like "Adobe RGB 1998" or "Untagged RGB (8-bit)" or "sRGB IEC61966-2.1").

     

    Please let me know what profile your images have (or if they are untagged) by using this method.

     

    Also, I've confirmed on my Windows 7 machine that the "Paint" program is a non-color managed application.  Could you try opening an image in Paint and comparing its appearance to Photoshop?

     

    Thanks for your patience!  I can explain what ICC color profiles are a little later, but I'd like to see first if this might be your issue, or at least confirm that it definitely isn't your issue.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 9, 2010 11:35 AM   in reply to conniez68

    Thanks, Connie.

     

    This confirms that your images are tagged with Adobe RGB, and is in agreement with you previously mentioning that you didn't change any of your color settings.

     

    The fact that you've seen this color behavior "pop back up" in certain applications after not making any changes to your system or software is still a mystery to me, but otherwise this could be expected behavior, for the technical reason that I gave in the previous post.  Even if it's a situation where nothing is technically "broken" in your system, there could still be some color management changes made to help you get the results you expect and want, but I think we still need more information.  Could you help me with a few more questions?

     

    What is the file format you save these in?  I think you mentioned DNG?  Were you able to open these 16-bit files in Paint with the current file format?

     

    What is the final output in your workflow, the final image file type or media that you give to customers?  How do customers view this media?  Through a browser, their computer monitor?

     

    You mentioned in a different post that you use Spyder 3 Elite to calibrate your monitors?  Do you still have the "default" monitor profiles that were assigned to your monitors before you calibrated them with the Spyder?  Also, I see that your 2nd monitor was just labeled as "Samsung", do you happen to have the full model name for your other monitor?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 9, 2010 5:36 PM   in reply to conniez68

    Hmmm,

     

    The calibrated profile is probably fine, you could verify this by just unchecking the "Use my settings for this device" box in the Windows Color Management dialog, then close the dialog and perform the same comparison tests you've been doing.  This will use whatever the Windows default is ("default" meaning letting the OS choose your monitor's profile instead of having you manually select another to use as the "default", Windows color management wording is weird...)

     

    I just recently got an HP Dreamcolor, another wide-gamut monitor, and I confirmed a similar behavior to what you're seeing by opening an untagged RGB image in Photoshop and then going to Edit > Color Settings and switching the Color Settings File (CSF) from North American Standard 2 to Monitor Color, I just kept the Color Settings dialog open with the preview checked on so I could see the color change switch on the fly.

     

    What this test did was show me a comparison of the untagged image's RGB color values interpreted through sRGB space (North American Standard 2) vs. being interpreted directly by the monitor's color space (Monitor Color).  When interpreted directly through the monitor, the image's appearance was much more saturated in color.

     

    If your final output is the web, then embedding sRGB in your images is a safe bet (note that if you're using Save for Web, there are separate options to just convert the images to sRGB and leave them untagged vs. converting to sRGB and tagging them with sRGB, so that color managed applications will know that the RGB numbers in your images are meant to be interpreted through the sRGB color space.)

     

    Color managment can be confusing, but you intuited the basics of it closely when you guessed that your images had some type of color "skin" attached to them.  This is basically what embedded profiles do, they create a meaning for the RGB numbers inside of your images, and allow color managed applications to detect what that meaning is and apply it properly for display.

     

    RGB numbers are going to be displayed whether they have a specific meaning attached to them or not.  Hence an untagged image will just have its RGB numbers interpreted directly through the monitor space, which means the interpretation of these image colors is proprietary, its appearance will be unique to the RGB output signals of the monitor, and will look different when those same RGB values are used through the output signal of a different monitor.

     

    What non-color managed applications basically do is treat every image as untagged, because they can't read or understand the meaning that's embedded in them through the color profile.

     

    Since your final output is a web browser, your web browser would have to be a color managed browser to view images with embedded profiles correctly.  Apple Safari and the latest version of Mozilla Firefox both have color management and have it turned on by default.  Internet Explorer I believe is still unmanaged, and Google Chrome I'm not sure about.

     

    If this is the correct behavior for what's happening with your setup, then a potential workaround would be to convert your final images in sRGB and then tell your customers to use a color managed web browser to at least have a chance at viewing colors close to what you're seeing in Photoshop (different monitors will still show variations still, but you'll have a much better chance with a color managed browser).

     

    sRGB was traditionally associated with web images because monitors used to give a fairly close interpretation even if displayed through a non-color managed application.  Maybe that's not the case anymore with newer monitors...

     

    Sorry for the length, but if this works, it will allow you to at least get your colors to a known state, so that if things still appear desaturated, but you know your customers will see the same thing, you'll be able to use color adjustments to give your images the look you want (there's other options, like using Prophoto RGB instead of Adobe RGB for your assigning profiles to your raw images, but that might require more explanation).

     

    Hope this helps!  If you have more questions feel free to ask, and if you think the issue is something different, I'd be curious to know and investigate this further.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2010 10:58 AM   in reply to conniez68

    I don't think this behavior is part of your problem, but I can explain what you're seeing and it might help us move further along:

     

    When you view the metadata of raw (NEF) image files in Bridge, you'll see them displayed as "untagged" because raw files by their nature don't contain embedded color profiles.  When you open raw files in ACR, the "Adobe RGB" you're seeing at the bottom of the screen is what would be called the "working space", you can think of this as the way ACR is taking the raw RGB values and interpreting them as some type of meaningful RGB numbers.  It's a little more complex than that, but in the end the colors you're seeing in your raw file in ACR are Adobe RGB color numbers, and when opened in Photoshop the new image gets "tagged" with the Adobe RGB color profile, so that Photoshop will now understand that the RGB numbers that make up this image are Adobe RGB numbers.

     

    The way color managed Adobe applications work is that they're always assigning a standardized "meaning" to the color numbers found in image files.  If an image has an embedded color profile, then Photoshop will respect that meaning and use it to send those colors to the monitor display.  If the image is untagged (has no color profile) then the Adobe application will assign it a meaning, and this meaning is called the "working space", which is also a color profile that is either temporarily assumed or permanently embedded (tagged) to the image when opened in the application.

     

    This is the nature of color management, it only does two things: 1. Assign meaning to digital color numbers.  2. Convert that meaning to other color spaces so that the color appearance, barring technical limitations, can be more-or-less maintained across different spaces and devices.

     

    If your workflow only consists of opening raw NEF files in ACR, editing them in Photoshop, and then saving the output files for print/web/cd as jpegs with Adobe RGB tagged on, then it sounds like your whole workflow is done in Adobe RGB space.  This is fine for now.  What's important is that this shows that your color workflow is consistent and predictable.  This could also explain why Adobe's Tech Support, after taking over your system, could not find the root of your problem, since they can only control the software side of things.

     

    Paradoxically, you mentioned that you can see the same behavior when using the same workflow on a different system.  This doesn't totally rule out a hardware issue, but it doesn't totally rule it in yet, either.

     

    I think the Bridge forum thread you posted is headed in the right direction.  We need to understand your hardware's behavior, the OS settings you're using, and get a slightly better understanding of your full workflow.  Would you mind answering these further questions?:

     

    1. The Bridge thread mentioned your monitor can be set to different "modes" by pushing a button on the monitor.  Could you tell me what mode you have selected when you profile the monitor, and if there are any settings you're allowed to choose inside of the Spyder 3 Elite profiling wizard, could you mention the choices you made (anything regarding gamma, color temperature, luminance level, etc...)?

     

    2. Would you mind attaching screenshots of your settings in the Color Management dialog inside of the Windows Control Panel?  A screenshot of the Devices tab and the Advanced tab would be helpful.  If you've already posted these screenshots in a different thread, would you mind just providing the link to the thread?

     

    3. After seeing these colors the way they are on your computer screen, have you tried viewing how these images look in their final output formats?  Have tried viewing how the prints of these images look, and how they look after you upload them to your website and view them in a browser?  Even though you don't like the colors the way you see them in Photoshop right now, seeing whether this color appearance is consistently reproduced in your final outputs could be a key factor in determining the solution to your issue.  Please give this a try if you haven't already.

     

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2010 1:55 PM   in reply to conniez68

    I was able to reproduce the behavior of tagged psd images reading as untagged in Bridge, but only with really large (1GB, 16-bit) files...  That one might be a bug...

     

    Hmmm, I don't think this is the issue I expected it to be with the answers you've given...  It's looking more and more like this is a bug instead of a designed behavior.

     

    Could I ask you about the colors shifting on-screen?  So the colors first appeared correct (proper or expected saturation) in Lr/Br/Ps, and then at some point they shifted color appearance, on screen, without any modifications being made to the images, application settings, monitor settings, or OS?  When you reproduced this issue on that second computer you mentioned, did it do the same thing where you saw the colors shift right on screen for no apparent reason?  Was there a particular image you were using when this occurred?

     

    A couple of last-ditch ideas:

     

    1. Could you post a screenshot of your color settings in Photoshop?  Are you using Photoshop as a stand alone product or as a suite?  If you're using it as part of a suite and have suite color management enabled, would you mind sending a screenshot of the color settings from Bridge (provided the suite color settings are synchronized)?

     

    2. Could you copy and paste your system info from Ps menu Help > System Info...?

     

    3. Could you double check to make sure your graphics card driver is up to date?  Can you reproduce the issue if you disable Open GL Drawing in Photoshop? (Edit > Preferences > Performance..., check off OpenGL Drawing and re-open the images in question...)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2010 2:23 PM   in reply to MJOrts

    One more thing I thought of:

     

    Could you verify the appearance of the colors in a color managed browser like Firefox?  Try taking an image and opening it in both internet explorer and firefox to compare the appearance.  This should help determine whether the behavior is Adobe specific or not.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2010 4:48 PM   in reply to conniez68

    The images you tested that look the same in IE and Firefox, do they both look desaturated?  How does the appearance compare to how they look in Bridge and Photoshop?  Is their appearance the same as Photoshop?

     

    It looks like the color shift would be expected behavior for Bridge since it takes a little time to read and apply embedded profiles to image thumbnails.  I tested and confirmed this behavior by looking at image thumbnails in Bridge and hitting [Purge Cache] in Edit > Preferences > Cache to watch the color shift happen over and over again.  When I switched the Bridge screen from my main monitor (wide gamut HP Dreamcolor) to a regular montior (some type of generic Dell monitor) I couldn't detect the color shift occurring when I purged the cache again.

     

    It seems like everything could be behaving correctly, and it's just a matter of the wide-gamut monitor giving images a more saturated appearance by not reading the embedded profiles within the image.  This is still possible on a non-wide gamut, though it should be less noticeable.  As for the prints looking good, unless we know the color management and color adjustments made by your printer when they receive your images, we can't determine from the prints whether the Adobe applications are giving an incorrect appearance.

     

    If your final output images edited in Photoshop look the same as what you get in Firefox, and if, under the given conditions in Photoshop, you can edit and adjust the colors of your images to get the appearance the way you want (while leaving color management settings the same) and you send these final edits out for print with the Photoshop appearance being the judging criteria for how decent the prints look, and they come back looking good, then I would keep your current setup and just use the appearance as you see it in Lr/Br/Ps as the judging criteria.  Even if the prints look bad, but the internet output looks like a close match to the Lr/Br/Ps output, I would still stick with that and then just work with the printer to tell them the appearance discrepancies and what you or the printer might be able to do to get a closer match.

     

    I'm kind of surprised Lr doesn't look different from Ps and Br too, since they're default working space is Prophoto...

     

    Hope this helps!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2010 5:13 PM   in reply to MJOrts

    Hey, have you tried seeing how things look with the "Use my settings for this device" box unchecked in the Windows Color Management dialog?

     

    A co-worker of mine thought your calibration device might be whacky.  Verifying the behavior with the OS-chosen CM settings would factor that out...

     

    Thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 14, 2010 11:19 PM   in reply to conniez68

    Hi Connie,

     

    Let me resume:

     

    Non  colormanaged applications (like windows explorer) shows your images  right, managed apps like LR and Bridge, which have different  cache folders, shows them desaturated, even the previewed NEF.

    Putting this  together, it can't a problem with the cache, harddisk, CF card. I mean, a  cache is a cache, and might needed to be updated from time to time, f.e.  when changing the monitor- or image profile. But I expect you always have done this.

     

    That's it - most of the rest (the tests done) provides unreliable information, sorry. I'm aware that to most of them you were forced by others, so don't take my following statements to personal.

     

    Nevertheless I believe what we see partitial is right: some of your images  are untagged (at least the PSD we see in one of the screenshots in here)

    Untagged images should look the same  in IE and Firefox unless you set Gfx.color management.mode to 1 and assign the monitor profile to FF. Per default CM in FF is enabled for tagged images only and by this acts like IE <V9 on untagged images

    Untagged sRGB should look oversaturated on wide-gamut monitors and browsers on which you can't apply a profile. Believe that is what you get.

     

     

    You asked me

    I'm confused which photos you viewed of mine that you found to be untagged?

    all the images you presented in threads in here are untagged ;-)

    Some might think different about that, but IMHO images always should have an embedded profile, even sRGB JPEGs used for web. You already get some hints on that in the other thread and the links to Ballard - even when his webdesign is a bit odd, its worth reading.

     

    I believe your issue is a combination of untagged images, a faulty monitor profile and maybe false handling.

     

    As implied above, personaly I can't trust any of the tests here, because they are (including the browser test I mentioned) not consistant done - I will tell you why.

    What you see next are three of the images you provided here, but stacked:

     

    color.jpg

    #1 (RGB/8*)*

    here the second * indicates, that the image was altered (either bei assigning a colorspace or bei normal editing) after it was loaded and in a colorspace which is different from Photoshops working colorspace, which is indicated by the first *

    #2 (RGB/8*)

    indicates images colorspace is different from Photoshops working colorspace - that's fine when the working space is aRGB and the image f.e. sRGB

    #3 (RGB/8)

    no *, no # in here indicates it is in Photoshops working colorspace.

     

    (RGB/8#) at the top would mean it is untagged, but when when colormanagement was OFF in that moment, it also would read as (RGB/8) or (RGB/16) (without an # or *) at the top, but "untagged" in the info panel at the bottom, even when the image has an embedded profile...

     

    On the otherhand - and this is the important part - the Photoshop (import) settings you provided here, tells that your PS is at "preserve embedded profiles" BUT "ask when opening" at profile mismatches. By this you will be asked whenever an image profile mismatches the working colorspace.
    The latter should be unchecked, anyway.

     

    So what have you been doing, when you were asked for image #1 and #2? With this settings and since their colorprofiles are different from PS working space, you must have been asked and have assigned a profile different from working space or you haven't been asked (because images colorspace and the working space was the same) and you assigned a different profile initially later.

     

    Or you have changed settings again and again when taking those screenshots....

    When you say you see images as untagged in Bridge but in Photoshops info panel as "Adobe RGB (1998)" this can be, when a profile was added (assigned) after the image was imported to PS. Bridge will not know about that until you save the image.

     

    Will say: those of us trying to help, never know exactly what they are here looking at (maybe without realizing)

    Do we see a sRGB under an aRGB working space (RGB/8*) for #2? And #3, is this an aRGB image under an aRGB working space or a sRGB image under sRGB, (both would appear as RGB/8)? Or was the image untagged and colormanagement was off?

     

    Seems a bit chaotic, sorry.

    At least this is nothing on which I'ld be able to tell for sure what is going on.

     

    Next: the monitor  profile you sent to me, turns my U2410 dark and too much purple/reddish.

    Of  course there should be a differences (different monitor, different  environment light and my old eyes), but this is far to much - it hurt my eyes

     

    As  far I know, LR internal uses the Melissa color space (which is larger  than aRGB)  - I wonder what happens when RAW were processed via Meliassa  to aRGB with a too reddish monitor profile and are saved as untagged  aRGB....?

    I also wonder how LR can be configured to export to PSD without  they being tagged...?   Nevertheless, I was able to reproduce this once. For one of my PSDs the profile was removed, but at the moment I don't know how to reproduce that again.

     

    As said just make sure you images are tagged. But don't just apply a profile to those images already processed, when you don't know what really happend to them - it might get worse.

     

    Anyway.

    To solve your prob, you should forget about LR for  now and remove the monitor profile made with the Spyder, set the DELL  profile which comes with the CD and process images from scratch.

    Means  straight from NEF in one colorspace only -> via Photoshops ACR (output as aRGB and make sure aRGB is your  working space in PS), save them as PSD or TIFF and make sure they get tagged as aRGB. See if it makes a difference (color shift or not), when viewed  in Bridge.

     

    If there is no shift, start over with calibrating your monitor. Calibrating means setting the hardware right, by making sure the monitor was set to aRGB and brightness and contrast was adjusted, before you profilling it with the Spyder.

     

    If the problem still exists with this new profile and with images, which were processed by the above workflow and by the new conditions (make sure of that, the already processed images might be messed up) again let some one with an U2410 check the new profile.

    If its still have a huge red shift on another U2410, it might point to a hardware fault (either Monitor or Spyder)

     

    @MJOrts

     

    I notice that "Use Windows display calibration" is checked on in your
    screenshot. 

    AFAIK this setting means, that Windows is loading the LUT and not a third-party LUT-Loader, coming with the profiling device.

     

    Message was edited by: ablichter #1 (RGB/8*)* was edited - wasn't able to mark the wrong part by formating it <s>"striked"</s>, so I removed and corrected it

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2010 3:49 PM   in reply to ablichter

    Sorry I was on vacation for a few days...

     

    Screenshots in Windows are untagged, so it makes sense that any screenshots Connie posts are untagged.  I'm not so certain about regular images.

     

    I wouldn't trust the print output from walmart as far as color management goes.  I don't know what their print workflow looks like, but if they're like most photo stores they'll make some basic color adjustments to every individual file they print, which usually means any pics with people in them get warmed up through color adjustments before printing.

     

    Like ablichter mentioned, Firefox should respect embedded color profiles.  Are you positive that the picture opened through Firefox contains an embedded Adobe RGB profile?  As opposed to testing the website itself through the browser, I would open the original image, that you can confirm has the embedded profile, and then right click it to open it into Firefox, and do the same comparison with Explorer (version 8 or earlier).  The ballard web links should confirm each browser's color management behavior, too.  He even uses Adobe RGB tagged images on his website to demonstrate.

     

    The picture of the website you showed, have you tried viewing the website on a different monitor?  How does the appearance compare?

     

    Even though your test results so far are a little confusing, I still believe this is expected behavior, where your wide gamut monitor is just oversaturating images that look normal under color managed applications.  I own a wide gamut monitor and can reproduce the effect you're getting by opening an aRGB tagged image in IE8 and seeing that its far more saturated than the same image opened in Firefox, Safari, or Photoshop since they can read and respect the embedded profile without sending the color numbers straight to the monitor.

     

    The other reason I don't think it's an Adobe bug is because I haven't heard of any complaints like this from other users.  I've seen other forum posts with complaints of a similar nature, but they draw the same conclusion that I'm coming to.

     

    Could you try out my two suggestions and see what happens?  I don't think it's a monitor calibration issue because the Adobe and browser apps still have to go through the monitor, and at least in your screenshots they look normal enough.

     

    If you have any questions about color management please ask, too.  If you don't understand why I'm suggesting this is expected behavior I can try to elaborate.

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2010 4:00 PM   in reply to ablichter

    "AFAIK this setting means, that Windows is loading the LUT and not a third-party LUT-Loader, coming with the profiling device."

     

    Hi ablichter,

     

    I thought this box only gets checked on if you "calibrate" your monitor by eye using Windows' own calibration wizard utility?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 15, 2010 5:40 PM   in reply to MJOrts

    Hi,

    I thought this box only gets checked on if you "calibrate" your monitor by eye using Windows' own calibration wizard utility?

    AFAIR in several publications in the net (which means nothing), its Windows 7 new/own LUT loader. Its a system wide configuration and you can disable it by going to Advanced => Change system defaults => Advanced. ROFL.

    Disabeling it means you are not able to change / load ANY profile anymore with WCM/this dialog.

     

    Even when I tried today without a collision on my system, I wonder what happens when there are two or three (Spyder's or Eye-One, the old Adobe Gamma Loader and Windows LUT-Loader) are active on a system.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2010 6:53 AM   in reply to MJOrts
    Even though your test results so far are a little confusing, I still
    believe this is expected behavior, where your wide gamut monitor is just
    oversaturating images that look normal under color managed
    applications.  I own a wide gamut monitor and can reproduce the effect
    you're getting by opening an aRGB tagged image in IE8 and seeing that
    its far more saturated than the same image opened in Firefox, Safari, or
    Photoshop since they can read and respect the embedded profile without
    sending the color numbers straight to the monitor.

    Since I work in a company doing a lot DTP (we do yellow pages for some cities in germany) I have a business related interest in that and I had a remote session with Connie some hours ago.

     

    How does it fit to you, when even a sRGB made on my computer, with an embedded sRGB profile, sent over to her computer,  looks desaturated in Bridge on her monitor, but as it should be in IE and FF?

    A sRGB might should loook slighty different in Bridge, but not at all desaturated. Its like watching an image with a large colorspace by a small monitor profile or assigning sRGB to an image in ProPhoto. Or similar to what we see with an unmanaged browser (IE <V9) in the web, when the images are in aRGB or ProPhoto.

    The DELL monitor profile coming with the CD was loaded. You won't believe it, when haven't seen.

     

    I'm a bit lost here, since the issue appears to her after a reboot, so I don't expect a hardware failure. I also don't believe its a Adobe bug (I must have it as well with my U2410), but something else interfering...

     

    To one of her PSD this was assigned, and Bridge showed it as untagged:

    argb.jpg argb1.jpg

    Mind the © in front - filename on disk: dsc_4400cz-89.psd

     

    ps

    was very late yesterday, so here're the screenshots

    to the left how the image looks on her monitor in Bridge with the default DELL U2410 profile, to the right the same image as it should look, in my Bridge (embedded sRGB)

    Untitled-1.jpg

    Camera RAW preferences were set to "apply autotone adjustments" unchecked and "disable JPEG support", so it was not influenced by this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2010 11:16 AM   in reply to ablichter

    Thanks for the info on Windows LUT loaders.  It's nice that they give such easy, intuitive controls over OS color management, since color management itself is already so abundantly easy to understand...

     

    Thank you for providing more info on Connie's issue, too.  Maybe if we eliminate more variables we can figure it out.  I have a vested interest in solving this problem too, mostly out of curiosity and a better understanding of how the color management eco system is working in this situation.  I'm a new-hire quality engineer (assigned to color management) on the Photoshop team, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can by working on weird problems like this .

     

    Perhaps we could stick with this one image for now, for testing purposes?  Could you tell me what version of Bridge/Photoshop you guys are using?  If the desaturated appearance also appears in Photoshop, would you mind if we isolated the testing to Photoshop for now?  I'm not as familiar with Bridge, and I suspect that the embedded profile not being displayed in Bridge is a potential bug (I can at least verify this behavior by using my own PSD files, Bridge seems to not display the metadata profile name when the PSD reaches a certain file size...  I haven't checked with the Bridge team yet to see if this is a bug though).

     

    I'm checking to see if I can find a copy of this U2410 monitor on floor so I can reproduce this behavior.  I have an HP Dreamcolor wide gamut monitor right now, so I'm working with that to try and reproduce the situation.

     

    The behavior I mentioned that you quoted above I can also reproduce with an sRGB embedded image (in fact I was using an sRGB image and mistakenly thought it was embedded with aRGB, oops...) but if a tagged image is looking the same in IE as in FF, but different in Bridge/Photoshop, it sounds like something else is happening...

     

    Would you mind sharing the version numbers of your IE and FF?  I heard the older versions of FF had CM turned off by default, but the newer versions have it turned on by default.  I'm using IE8 right now and FF 3.5.13.

     

    If you feel like it you could download the windows version of Apple Safari browser and try that one, too.  That browser always has CM turned on, and on my machine I'm getting identical results to FF but IE8 is behaving as though it's not respecting the profile (expected).

     

    Does the U2410 have different "modes" that you can set in the monitor menu, and then assign the corresponding manufacturer provided profile in Windows color management?  I tried this with my HP Dreamcolor, setting its mode manually to sRGB, and then changing the monitor profile WCM to match it as sRGB, and then the colors on all applications match (IE8, FF, Safari, and Photoshop).  Could you try something like that?

     

    My theory is that the desaturated colors are the "right" colors, and that the monitor just displays a wider gamut with much more saturated colors than the color spaces typically embedded in images (sRGB, aRGB).  Since you have the same monitor though, it sounds like this might not explain it, but just comparing screenshots I don't think will answer the problem since screenshots in Windows are untagged (if they're just capturing the raw color numbers coming out of the monitor, then a screenshot passed between one U2410 to another could still look different from each other, and it wouldn't prove that the Bridge/Photoshop colors are wrong).  Or, if you paste a screenshot into a blank, new document sRGB image in Photoshop, the image inside of the color managed app will appear desaturated and the image in non-managed app will appear normal.

     

    Would you mind letting me know about the color modes settings for the U2410 and make sure you and Connie are using the same mode settings, along with the same Windows CM monitor profile and as close to identical Windows CM settings as you can both get to?

     

    Another test would be for Connie to open the desaturated looking image in Photoshop, edit it until she gets the color appearance she likes (without changing the embedded profile of the image) and then saving and sending it to you to see if the image looks correct to you in the Photoshop on your computer.

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2010 9:20 PM   in reply to conniez68

    This may not solve your problem, but you really need to apply the Photoshop 12.0.1 update ASAP.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2010 9:23 PM   in reply to conniez68

    Sorry I don't have any more helpful suggestions—I don't do Windows.

     

     

    ____________

    Wo Tai Lao Le

    我太老了

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 11:01 AM   in reply to conniez68

    Before this issue occurred the colors showed correctly in Photoshop.

     

    Can you remember any changes that happened to your system from before the issue occurred?  Is there anything that changed between now and then?  Monitor profiling?  OS updates?  Anything?

     

    Photoshop should read 12.0.1 in your version if you have the latest patch.  If the auto update didn't catch it you might have to download and install the patcher manually.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 11:46 AM   in reply to conniez68

    conniez68 wrote:

     

    Thank you Tai, but I believe the programs are up to date. When I choose updates, I am informed that all of the software is up-to-date. I may not have given the full information PS reads 12.0(12.x0x20100407 and Camera Raw 6.2

     

    No, your version of Photoshop is indeed obsolete.

     

    The Adobe auto updater is a piece of cr@p that has been broken in one way or another for years and years.  It will sometimes fail to inform you of new updates, at other times it will tell you that there's an update available when in fact you have it installed already, or the update process will fail, etc.

     

    I have not relied on it for years, and I perform all my updates manually.

     

     

    ____________

    Wo Tai Lao Le

    我太老了

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 12:05 PM   in reply to conniez68

    Incidentally,

     

    conniez68 wrote:

     

    …When I choose updates, I am informed that all of the software is up-to-date…

     

    I assume you checked for Adobe updates from within Photoshop.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 2:17 PM   in reply to MJOrts

    Hi,

    even when Connie answers some points already, let my add some more.

     

    Whether Bridge or PS, its the same on both. I made sure the seetings are okay, so no sideeffects can happend here. So when I mentioned Bridge than because it was used for a quick view to the images. And I purged its cache when important things in the system were changed.

     

     

    Connie uses CS5, ACR 6.2, Bridge 4.0.3. 9 - as said all the latest, because we updated.

    My setup is a bit different since I use ACR and DNG Converter 6.3 beta, but this does not matter here.

     

    Profile was the default,  which comes with the CD and systems "viewing conditions profile" is "WCS  profile for ICC viewing conditions" as it should be, when you don't use  MS's internal CM.

    MS's internal CM and "WCS profile for  sRGB viewing conditions" refers to the *.cdmp file "in  C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color" which f.e. appears as "sRGB  virtual device model profile" in the WCS dialog.

     

    Connie  uses IE 8 - FF I didn't checked, but as told in another post, I  need to corrected the CM settings to 1 (gfx.color_management.mode) for enabling CM for any rendered image and it  behaves as it should.

    I use colormanaged IE9 beta and FF 3.6.12 with the same settings.

    We verified settings and browsers viewing conditions with this site, especially the 2nd page. Her IE still is Color Stupid (explained at the 3rd page) FF "Color smart" ;-)

     

    But the webbrowsers are IMHO not the point here.

    Does the U2410 have different "modes" that you can set in the monitor menu, and then assign the corresponding manufacturer provided profile in Windows color management?  I tried this with my HP Dreamcolor, setting its mode manually to sRGB, and then changing the monitor profile WCM to match it as sRGB, and then the colors on all applications match (IE8, FF, Safari, and Photoshop).  Could you try something like that?

    Yes, the monitor has, thought hers was set to aRGB, but it seems its on  Standard. But except with sRGB this settings just changes the color temperature -  aRGB usually is  warmer.

     

    This doesn't proof a thing, because the color of the images matches in both browsers and explorer ;-) There was a bit difference  maybe, because IE doesn't read the embedded profile and FF makes use of rendering intents.

     

    The prob  appears, when a colormanged app comes into game. (I forgot to point FF to the monitor profile, I used sRGB instead :-(, but the above test was passed)

    I won't say its with Adobe products, but of course we concentrated to them.

     

    @Connie

    Not sure if I saw Fastpicture viewer or if it was another product on  your computer the other day. Can you please download it from here and set it to use the Dells generic monitor profile in Menu =>  Options. Please check if the images are desaturated in there as well and report. Should  be, because its CMed.

    My theory is that the desaturated colors are the "right" colors, and that the monitor just displays a wider gamut with much more saturated
    colors than the color spaces typically embedded in images (sRGB, aRGB).

    Like Connie I have to disagree too.

    Images looked okay before booting. And right before Bridge applies its color corrections to them, they look okay too.

     

    Regarding this:

    Since you have the same monitor though, it sounds like this might not explain it, but just comparing screenshots I don't think will answer the problem since screenshots in Windows are untagged (if they're just capturing the raw color numbers coming out of the monitor, then a  screenshot passed between one U2410 to another could still look different from each other, and it wouldn't prove that the  Bridge/Photoshop colors are wrong).  Or, if you paste a screenshot into a blank, new document sRGB image in Photoshop, the image inside of the color managed app will appear desaturated and the image in non-managed app will appear normal

     

    Let me resume:

    My aRGB embedded image looked  desaturated with her Bridge or Photoshop. I was able to see that even in a remote  session. I took a screenshot by what I saw on my computer.

    I viewed my image in Bridge on my computer and took a screenshot. I opened both in CS5, converted them to sRGB - appearances stayed the same. I pasted them into one image, saved that as embedded sRGB and uploaded it here. Note that I compared two screenshots and not a screenshot with the my original image...

    if they're just capturing the raw color numbers coming out of the monitor

     

    Yepp, but what was captured is the already interpreted/processed data, poiting to the color numbers of the monitor(s) - will say  we captured the endproduct = what is shown to the user. I believe its acceptable to compare this way. Correct me if my idea is wrong, but please explain it a bit more indeep.

     

    Of course I can't say if Connie saw the same like me, since I was on a remote session, but I believe she would have intervened or corrected me, when what I presented looked to different to what she saw.

     

    In my former post there was a mistake (will correct that after sending this, not sure if I can mark it noticeable as edited because striking often does not work when editing an already posted reply). Seems I'm not able to correct a former post anymore, after there was a reply.

     

    I said the image in question had sRGB embedded, but it has aRGB and looked desaturated on her PS/Bridge. sRGB are almost fine. Her system is performing diametral to how it should. Let me again take the old example: its like viewing an aRGB or ProPhoto image with <IE8.

     

    What I don't know: is there a need for a gamut-mapping when images colorspace is the same as the working and monitor space? Or does it always happend?

     

    @all - thanks for your help, but please don't concentrate to much to an Adobe update. As Connie reported in one of her former posts, she has this with other CM apps too, not only PS, LR or Bridge.

     

    btw:

    Does somebody know, why there is a © in front of the filename and colorspace for the image I mentioned in the other thread? I can do what I want, I can't get rid of it and I also don't find something poiting to © in EXIF, IPTC or XMP.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2010 5:10 PM   in reply to ablichter

    A null transform should take place when an embedded profile is the same as the working space, and I believe the same should happen for the monitor space.

     

    "Images looked okay before booting. And right before Bridge applies its color corrections to them, they look okay too."

     

    What does this mean?  Before booting what?  How could you see the images before you booted the program they're displayed in?

     

    I'm still confused about the before state and after state of the machine when the issue occurred.  Did you already mention what changed in the state of the machine before this happened?  Monitor profile?  OS color management settings?

     
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