Yeah, I've dealt with this B.S. since 2002. The broadcast journalism school had Media 100 suites for our newscutting and FCP suites for the rest of the production classes. I got sick of waiting in line to cut my edits, and having to rush against the clock...edit sessions were 2 hours max, and the school closed at 8pm. Nevermind taking the time to ride into campus to cut the projects and having to store everything on portable drives (which were small and expensive at the time).

I looked into buying my own FCP system but I quickly found out the costs (I was so naieve, i didn't even realize it was a Mac-only application). Someone tipped me to Premiere which was just recently released as v6.5. Truth be told, this person gave me an illegal copy of Premiere (hey, it was the days of Napster, we were stupid and didn't realize this stuff was supposed to cost money).

At any rate, I installed Premiere on my decently-outfitted Dell computer with plenty of storage and that was that. To me, it was actually more functional than FCP and faster, and it didn't require a $4,000 computer system. I did purchase the software after my first edit, just so everyone knows that's on the record, and I've purchased every version ever since.

It was hilarious to me that a few of my peers refused to work on Premiere because, as they said, "all the pros are using FCP and you're going to need to know how to use it if you want a job." Of course, I always pictured myself as eventually being indepedent - which I am - and so that means I get to pick what I want to use. Nonetheless, they all slaved away back and forth to the edit bays, whereas I could just stay up til 2am cutting a student project and be done with it in one session and without any external storage.

9 years later, nothing much has changed. The BBC bought 2,000+ seats of Premiere Pro CS5, and when I tell my friends over at a major Atlanta broadcaster (where they run FCP and a few Avids) they scoff, like it's no big deal. I guarantee if the BBC bought 2,000 seats of FCPX they'd be telling me all about it.

Even more interesting, this major broadcaster here in Atlanta actually has a few copies of FCPX on their test beds, and now the word is that they're ditching FCP and either moving back to Avid...or to Premiere Pro. One of the guys actually said this: "yeah, it's starting to look like we're either going back to Avid or - yuck! - Premiere [sic]."

I didn't address the "yuck" comment, but that sort of sentiment runs rampant through the FCP faithful who haven't even worked in Premiere Pro and couldn't tell you anything about it except that they don't like it. Somehow they just KNOW that it's terrible...even though, as you mentioned, everything else they work with is Adobe...Illustrator, Photoshop, After Effects, Dreamweaver, Flash.

The worst thing - and I'll end with this - is that they will all complain about this that and the other when it comes to the current FCP suite ("motion is crap" and "dvd studio pro is useless" and "FCP is so buggy" and "Quicktime gamma is horrible and unworkable"). This is akin to some kid on the playground saying "my mom is such a jerk." You can bet that if another kid says "yeah, she really is...your mom sucks" that you will find this same person coming rapidly to his own mother's defense. Point is, FCP users have no shortage of complaints about their own software of choice, but if any outsider says anything about it or recommends Premiere Pro as a solution, it's all smirks, scoffs and BS.

For what it's worth, I have sent my demo in to jobs before that required FCP experience. After they loved the reel, they asked about FCP..."didn't see it on your resume"

I just told them I don't use FCP, that to me it doesn't matter what software somebody uses to create, so long as the product is great.

They agreed in both instances, and I got the job.

Haven't been turned down yet for not using FCP. Not like it's hard to learn.

that mac vs pc stuff with photoshop was related to the "post script" fonts for mac vs "true type" for pc...with some good reason for commercial printing.

also the postscript stuff was used then for imagesetters ( making color separations from quark and photoshop )... so part of the problem back then was indeed a quality issue and the diff between commercial quality and "small business / home " quality ( postscript vs HP standards re: fonts and color spaces etc ..... what we now refer to as cmyk vs rgb in a lot of cases )

ps..

also, at that time , using something like quark with photoshop required ( with cmyk space  and non-scalable postscript fonts ) some knowledge of dot screens, angles, shapes of dots and dot gain etc etc....  which pc people ( home and small biz apps ) didnt know about generally....

sooo, we have to take this evolution with some degree of sincere factual stuff .....not just a passion for some platform etc

pps... I once worked on a hybrid silicon graphics machine in a commercial house that was called the " SNAKE MACHINE " !!!! NO KIDDING !

( joking )

Yeah, I forget when it happened that adobe stuff went to pc and it came with an "adobe type manager" thing that you could use your postscript fonts with ( as well as the true type scalable fonts ).. all in all the market changed then , going to home businss, small business and home stuff ( RGB ) based stuff...and the imagesetters using postscript got more advanced ( instead of making color separations on film they started making the plates for offset press )...  I kinda lost touch with all that when that happened...

i sincerely hope you guys dont have very scary dreams about

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSnakes !

Chris, your take on the history and evolution of this stuff ( pc mac ) etc is right on...or at least exactly what I saw happening too.

Now, just for the heck of it, my latest foray into "editing" has me potentially getting in touch with dir / exec prod re: using csX to do some manipulation of dailies and maybe roughcuts during shoots in the future ( and some info wrangling ( assets ) )...

I can't imagine I'm the only one doing that.... so everything once again just comes down to just using tools that do the jobs.

on another subject... I need to make about 8 short clips ( about 1 sec each ...maybe .5 sec ) of scrambled video like when you turn on, off and on again a cheap video camera and replay stuff....that noise you see between turning off and on ...

any ideas ??  ( dv ntsc 720x480 16:9 "upper field first" ( is weird but true ) ) --- Im using cs3

AND ITS BEER THIRTY !

Yes to Todd, great discussion.

I think the best word to respond to this 'No Professional Uses Premiere!" statement is simply "FALSE".

If you label that comment as "false", you don't call the speaker a liar or anything inflammatory, but calmly rebut it on an objective basis.

For example, I'm making my way through the Peachpit Video2Brain interactive videos on Premiere Pro and After Effects, the latter featuring Todd Kopriva.

Throughout these 20 hours of incredible instructional videos, the instructors are working on various "medieval gladiator pitched battle" material as a platform for teaching a myriad of tips and techniques in these two applications.  The name of the undertaking is apparently called "Palladin" or something like that.

Just ten days ago, something raced by me on the TV screen, some quick, catchy ad about a hot new cable TV show. 

It had this same footage and characters as these instructional videos did.  What Todd and others had been working on during these instructional videos was a very ambitious cable tv project for a major entity.

So it is simply false to say that no professional uses premiere. 

1.  It is being used to win awards on feature films as Todd points out.

2.  It is also being used on major network television studio broadcasts, as the anecdote above demonstrates.  (I wish I remembered the name of the show....).

So unless they want to challenge those two projects set forth above as "unprofessional", I simply have zero idea what the heck they are talking about.

Matt

re: pro work with premiere ...I have to admit that I'm leaning toward wanting to see some LUT functionality with the product without plug ins or 3rd party programs.

I guess you can work around alexa prores 4444 C log stuff using avchd or something and then use fast color correction ( rgb ? ) settings to get some kinda rec709 thing...but if a DP did camera tests and on the day of tests ( with DIT guy there ) made a LUT for all his dailies ....it would be nice to plug that into premiere right off the bat....

apparently thats one reason avid and fcp is being used for those dailies now and NOT premiere pro...as the LUT is custom made and NOT trying to replicate a common color space.

Excerpt from "Videoguys" site...

Top 5 Storage Rules
You have a lot of choices for drives to store your digital video files. A stand-alone SATA hard drive is fast enough for editing Standard Definition (SD) footage using DV or MPEG2 compression. But, if you're working with uncompressed SD footage or HD footage, we recommend more robust storage solutions. Before we get into our FAQ, we'd like to review Videoguys' Five Rules of Video Storage:

Now that you know our Five Rules of Video Storage, let's dig in and answer some very important video storage questions!

How should I configure the storage for my video editing workstation?
For video editing, the Videoguys recommend the following RAID storage configuration:

   1. SATA Boot drive (500GB or larger)
    2. Pair of Identical SATA drives striped in a RAID0 configuration 2 x 1,000GB = 2TB (1,000GB) or an external RAID 0 or RAID5
    3. (optional) 4th SATA drive (500GB or larger) for encoding to. Plus use it for back-ups, digital photo library, MP3 library, etc.

Why can't I just set up my computer with one big RAID-0 for all my storage?
We do NOT recommend setting up your computer with a single RAID 0 array as your boot drive and video storage. This will actually give you poor performance for video editing. The constant reading and writing of small bits of data to the boot drive works against the need to read & write large continuous video files. Add in the overhead of the RAID controller and you get potential bottlenecks. For video editing you always want to have a separate drive or RAID array dedicated to your video files.

What about SCSI?
Years ago we only recommended SCSI hard drives for video storage but now, with SATA drive technology, that is no longer the case. While SCSI drives are faster, more reliable and better then SATA drives, they are also much more expensive and, for video work, they are not worth the premium. You get much better price / performance with a SATA RAID then a SCSI drive.

How much storage do I need for making standard definition DVDs?
Lets break it down:

• If you are starting with DV footage, you      need 13GB per hour of video.
• This means a 2 hour DVD is 2 x 13 = 26GB      of footage.
• Add in the extra unused footage and it's      more like 3 x 13 = 39GB.
• Figure that you'll be adding some extra      graphics and audio tracks. Let's say another 2GB for these.
• Now you need room for the MPEG2 footage      for the DVD, that's 4.7GB more.

Add it all up and it comes to almost 50GB of high speed video storage to make a 2 hour DVD!!

How much storage do I need for HD?
That depends on the compression you are using. HDV footage takes up about the same amount of space as DV, 13GB per hour, while ProRes 422, DNxHD or DVC Pro HD takes up about 4 times as much space,  over 60GB per hour. Uncompressed HD footage requires around 500GB per hour - almost 50x the storage capacity of compressed HD footage. Plus, uncompressed HD also requires substantially faster sustained throughput. A single stream of uncompressed HD footage requires over 100 MB/sec!! At first glance, uncompressed HD video capture cards are inexpensive, but once you add the cost of the necessary storage you'll realize that editing uncompressed HD is actually very expensive.

Below is a simple chart to help make this easier to understand:

What are the different RAID configurations and how are they used for video storage?

• RAID 0
  RAID 0      is two or more drives striped together for maximum throughput. The      computer sees theses drives as one single, large drive. With RAID-0 you      get 2x the drive capacity of the smaller drive. So two 250GB drives give      you 500GB of storage. (Note: we strongly recommend using identical drives      – same model and capacity – for any RAID).
  • Advantage: Maximum throughput
  • Disadvantage: If one of the drives in a       RAID-0 should fail, you would lose all your data.
• RAID 1
  RAID 1 is often      called mirroring because both drives have the same exact data on them.      This is done for protection. If one drive fails, you still have all your      data on the other. This means the total volume of storage in the RAID-1 is      only as big as a single drive. (2 x 250GB drives in RAID-1 gives you 250GB      of usable storage).
  • Advantage: Data protection.
  • Disadvantage: We don't recommend RAID-1       for video. You end up with less capacity and when you add on the overhead       of the RAID, your throughput speed is actually less then a single drive       alone.
• RAID 0+1
  RAID 0+1      is one way to get all the throughput benefits of RAID-0 and the data      protection of RAID-1. You would need 4 drives for this, with two pairs of      drives striped together as RAID-0, then the two RAID-0s mirrored.
  • Advantage: Combination of maximum       throughput and data protection.
  • Disadvantage: Cost of four drives for       configuration with overall storage capacity equal to just two of the       drives.
    
    
• RAID 5
  RAID5 is our      top recommendation for video editing! A RAID 5 set-up      allows you to use parity bits that spread the risk of drive failure among      the other drives in the RAID. Keeping with my previous illustrations 4 x      250GB gives you 750GB of usable storage with even faster throughput then      RAID-0 and data protection.
  • Advantage: Combination of maximum       throughput and data protection without sacrificing half of the overall       storage capacity.
  • Disadvantage: Cost of four drives and       please keep in mind that 4 or more disks create lots of heat, so you       really need to take a solution like this outside of the computer.       External housings and connections will add to the cost.

Which storage system should I use?
As of January, 2011 the Videoguys' Techs have agreed on these storage recommendations based on the availability and prices of current products:

• If you want the lowest possible cost, get a pair of      identical 7200RPM SATA drives (1TB or larger) and stripe them together      yourself. This increases the throughput of the drives and lets you use the      entire capacity. This is called a RAID-0 stripe. Striping together a pair      of 1TB drives will give you 2TB of screaming fast storage. You      can stripe them together using your operating systems Disk Management      utility. For even more performance get a PCIe SATA RAID controller card      with 3rd party RAID software utility and set up a RAID5 with four 1TB      drives to give you 3TB of lightning fast, redundant storage.
• In the long run an external hard drive solution is      the better value for most digital video editors. While you will pay a      little more for an external storage solution you will find it worth every      penny.
• No hassle opening up your computer to install them.
• No excessive fan noise from the extra cooling      required by multiple hard drives in your case
• No worries about the heat they generate deteriorating      other components in your machine.
• You can "sneaker net" your data between      multiple computers – which means physically walking it from one machine to      the next.
• They work with laptops and workstations.
• You can easily migrate your media to a new      video-editing computer when the time comes to upgrade to a new one.
• We also strongly recommend external storage in any      environment with a multi-purpose PC. You need to protect your precious      video memories and all the time you spent working on your video. If you      have to use the family computer for video editing wouldn't you feel better      knowing that you could simply turn off the external drive or safely remove      it while the kids used the computer?

If you want to add an external storage solution to your PC or Mac; workstation or laptop; then we recommend the following solutions:

• If you are using standard-definition DV footage and      making simple videos less than an hour long you can use a single external      drive solution. In order of preference we recommend connecting that drive      to eSata, FireWire 800, FireWire 400 or USB 2.0.
• If you are working with videos longer than an hour,      or if you have some very creative and complex ideas, or if you are editing      HD footage; then you'll want an external RAID solution like the G-Tech      G-RAIDs.
• While USB3 external drives and RAIDs are now      shipping, our best advice is to skip USB3, and get the new Intel      Thunderbolt based drives when they become available in late 2011.

G-RAIDs come pre-configured in a RAID-0 stripe for maximum throughput and they're specifically designed for video editing with excellent cooling and air flow. Heat is the enemy of any hard drive and constant video storage will surely create a lot of heat. G-Tech has taken this into account on all the G-RAID solutions including the newest G-RAID 4. G-RAID 4 allows you to connect to your computer via eSATA (in addition to USB2, FW400 & FW800), which is much faster then FireWire and even more reliable.

• If you are doing complex HD productions and you want      to have protection against drive failures than we recommend the G-Tech      G-SPEED eS. The G-SPEED eS connects to your PC or Mac via the G-Tech eSATA      PCIe RAID card and allows you to use the Videoguys top recommended RAID-5      the next level of storage. Many times that will include rack-mounted      solutions. configuration
• If you are doing broadcast level uncompressed HD work      then you need
• If you need to support multiple levels of      uncompressed HD you are getting into more expensive storage, requiring expensive      controller cards like NAS or FibreChannel. These cards can cost up to and      over $1,000. If you need allow access to your files by more then one      editor, you to add special networking hardware, software and expertise.

We hope that this article gives you a better understanding of the various types of video storage and what you need for your own projects

Videoguys recommends G-Tech as our preferred storage partner
Heat is the enemy of all drives and Lacie and many other external drive vendors do not properly ventilate or cool their units. In addition the quality control on the drives these other vendors use in their drives are simply not as tight or rigorous as those used by G-Tech.

G-Tech drives are designed for good air flow and heat dissipation. Their Raids are also fan cooled. Their quality control is excellent. We've been selling GTech storage for over 5 years and the long-term reliability has been superb. We've been banging on a G-Speed eS unit with our DIY6 rig for almost 6 months now. It simply works and works. In a RAID5 you get throughput speed and redundancy.

G-Tech just introduced GRAID ver 4 with quad interface. Now you get USB, FireWire 400 & 800 and eSata. If your Mobo has an eSata port, this is a really nice solution. G-RAIDs are RAID0, so you don't get any redundancy.

The college where I work started out with Premiere 6.0 in their film tech lab for our film students. The students and profs all complained and insisted on getting FCP. Problem was, the college not only didn't own any Macs, but the IT Director refused to allow Macs onto his network because they would "break" it. I'll admit, at the time, I was one of the students clamoring for FCP... but only because Premiere 6.0 was definitely lacking when compared to the FCP that was out at the time, but also because the PCs running 6.0 were Pentium 2s with 512MB of Ram, integrated video card, and single 10GB hard drive. Well, I digress...

Two years ago they broke down and got rid of 6.0 and the horribly outdated computers and outfitted the entire lab (12 systems) with 24" iMacs with FCP. And then they bought several new cameras whose native footage doesn't work in FCP. You know what their solution was? Yep... buy CS5 and install it on all the Macs. So now they just struggle with how poorly Adobe operates on iMacs, and have wasted a ton of money on the iMacs and the FCP software. At that point I was already a convert to PrPro (I was on CS4 at the time, having used it religiously since CS3... I got out of the business temporarily between 6.0 and CS2) and tried to get them to replace their aging PCs with 6.0 with better PCs and CS5, but was ignored. Oh well. Now I get to "troubleshoot" things for them when PrPro won't launch properly or when they have trouble with other things--been forced into the mac world, as it were.

I had to laugh last week, too, cause my graphic designer who works right above my office swears by Mac... he uses all Adobe products, and nevermind the fact that they work just as well (or better) on the PC--he's a Mac man to the core. He's got a Mac Pro and the video card died on it about three weeks ago. Could our IT department pop a new card in there? Nope... they had to send it off to Mac Authority forty miles away. Did he get it back the same day? Nope... it came back four days later with a new video card and a software "bandaid" of some sort that they promised would hold things together until they had time to reinstall the entire OS and all his programs--apparently something they did in swapping out the video card basically corrupted the whole machine. They also ended up "losing" most of his data (it's all still there, but his shortcuts and file structures are totally screwed up) and all his programs had to be re-authorized before they could be used. They sent it back to Mac Authority yesterday to get rebuilt. And all because he's on a Mac. Were he on a PC it would have been a simple matter of swapping out the card by our IT folks and he would've been on his way. Three weeks later he's still crippled and sending me stuff to do for him on my PC. And when I tell him to get a PC, he starts mocking and scorning... Oh well!