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FotisGreece
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Encore CS5.1 and DTS sound for BluRay: Has there been any success

May 8, 2011 6:02 AM

I have not updated to the latest version (can't afford at the moment) but I would really like to know if there have been any improvements in the DTS sound file handling.

 

In CS5 you can NOT create a BluRay disk with dts sound. dtshd (using DTS MasterAudioSuite) are not accepted at all and .cpt files are accepted but can only be used for DVD projects (when trying to create a BD project with .cpt you can an error of file not valid for BluRay).

 

Has something changed in newer version?

I would be really interested to know about this.

 

Thanks in advance

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 8, 2011 3:37 PM   in reply to FotisGreece

    I'm curios myself.  I plan on upgrading my business to 5.1 surround sound this year, and would like to create both DVDs and Blu-ray with DTS 5.1 soundtracks.

     
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    May 9, 2011 7:46 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    FotisGreece wrote:

     

    I have not updated to the latest version (can't afford at the moment) but I would really like to know if there have been any improvements in the DTS sound file handling.

     

    Has something changed in newer version?

     

    nope. my colleague updated cs5 over the weekend, and we just ran a couple of tests, and still the same situation with DTS, .cpt and .dts are not "legal for blu-ray" and .dtshd is not a format encore will import.

     

    so i guess write DTS, or keep bugging adobe for this as a suggestion for cs6?

     
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    May 10, 2011 6:54 AM   in reply to Keith_Clark

    DH,

     

    Thanks for that update.

     

    Sounds like a good place to plug the good old Feature Request form.

     

    Appreciated,

     

    Hunt

     
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    May 10, 2011 10:59 PM   in reply to Keith_Clark

     

     

    nope. my colleague updated cs5 over the weekend, and we just ran a couple of tests, and still the same situation with DTS, .cpt and .dts are not "legal for blu-ray"

     

    Hi,

     

    Encore does support the DTS files and also does a pass through of those files(i.e.  No transcoding is required). But the DTS file has to be a Blu-ray legal file.

    The specifications of the DTS files should be according to the BD spec.

    The following specifications are mentioned in the BD spec :

     

    Core audio data part of the Synchronized frame

    • Duration of Synchronized Frame         :     512 samples per channel      

    • Sampling Frequency (Fs)                   :     48 kHz     

    • Bit Rate                                            :     192*103 to 1509*103 bits/second    

    • Audio Channel Arrangement               :     1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 3/1, 2/1, 2/2, 3/2  

    • Low Frequency Effects Flag               :     Available  

     

     

    You can check the file specification with the help of vlc media player of a tool named Mediainfo (available for free)

    If you still face any problem, please send the files to me. I am an Adobe Employee and I can do a quick analysis for the legality of the file.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

    Software Engineer

    Adobe Systems

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 11, 2011 5:02 AM   in reply to ram8kumar

    ram8kumar wrote:

     

     

     

    nope. my colleague updated cs5 over the weekend, and we just ran a couple of tests, and still the same situation with DTS, .cpt and .dts are not "legal for blu-ray"

     

    Hi,

     

    Encore does support the DTS files and also does a pass through of those files(i.e.  No transcoding is required). But the DTS file has to be a Blu-ray legal file.

    The specifications of the DTS files should be according to the BD spec.

    The following specifications are mentioned in the BD spec :

     

     

    Core audio data part of the Synchronized frame

    • Duration of Synchronized Frame         :     512 samples per channel      

    • Sampling Frequency (Fs)                   :     48 kHz     

    • Bit Rate                                            :     192*103 to 1509*103 bits/second    

    • Audio Channel Arrangement               :     1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 3/1, 2/1, 2/2, 3/2  

    • Low Frequency Effects Flag               :     Available  

     

     

    You can check the file specification with the help of vlc media player of a tool named Mediainfo (available for free)

    If you still face any problem, please send the files to me. I am an Adobe Employee and I can do a quick analysis for the legality of the file.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

    Software Engineer

    Adobe Systems

    Hi Ramesh.

     

    Good to see you here, andthanks for the clarification.

    However, the OP was referring to DTS-HD Master Audio.

    Encore sees the files & will import them - but gets it hopelessly wrong.

     

    When can we expect to see lossless surround support please? It's great having the replication option, but we need better features too.

    DTS-HD MAS is the best one to do for, as not only will DTS be happy to help Adobe implement this, but it also carries the Core Audio component

    multiplexed into the main .dtshd stream - at the very, very least Encore should be able to import this.

    Full support would be much better though - Audio is 50% of a film, you know, and in a concert film it should get more.

    A bad film can be saved with great sound, but bad sound will ruin any film, no matter how well edited or how high the definition

     

    @ ram8kumar

    ,

    5.1 DTS Core Audio is mandatory for BD, but so is 5,1 LPCM, and Encore cannot do this either.

    I  have not had issues importing DTS or CPT files - cpt is the preferred  form these days (the DTS-HD MAS encoder only outputs compact form these  days)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 11, 2011 5:31 AM   in reply to Neil Wilkes

    Hi,

     

    Encore does not support dtshd audio but it supports the dts and cpt files if they are blu ray legal.

    If you are seeing any issues with dts or cpt files, then please share the file with us. We can do some analysis on that file.

    If you can share the file, then please let me know. You can share your email id and I will share some ftp location with you.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 11, 2011 5:46 AM   in reply to ram8kumar

    When will we get DTSHD or LPCM 5.1?

    Lossless is needed.....it really is.

     
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    May 11, 2011 9:18 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    FotisGreece wrote:

     

    Ok, ladies & gentlemen, let's see what's going on here.

    First of all I would like to thank my friend George from a London based studio who was kind enough to help me with his professional DTS MA suite encoder

     

    Here is a zipped file which contains two dts .cpt audio files

     

    https://www.yousendit.com/download/MEtUbUpSSU9xRTJ4dnc9PQ

     

     


     

     


    2) The second file is star1509.cpt

     

    DTS stream tools gives this info in verification

     

    Num Channels = 2
    Sample Rate = 48000
    Lossy Encode
    Samples per frame: 512
    Core FSIZE (bytes):     2013
    Core Bitrate (kbps):     1509

     

    ****** End of input bit stream ******
    1875 out of 1875 frames verified successfully

     

    Stream passes verification with no errors.

     

    and mediainfo gives this info

     

    General
    Complete name                    : V:\Temp\star1509.cpt
    Format                           : DTS
    Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
    File size                        : 3.60 MiB
    Duration                         : 20s 0ms
    Overall bit rate                 : 1 510 Kbps

    Audio
    Format                           : DTS
    Format/Info                      : Digital Theater Systems
    Duration                         : 20s 0ms
    Bit rate mode                    : Constant
    Bit rate                         : 1 510 Kbps
    Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
    Channel positions                : Front: L R
    Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth                        : 16 bits
    Compression mode                 : Lossy
    Stream size                      : 3.60 MiB (100%)

     

    This file although it is accepted comes and with the error that it is not BluRay legal. So it is NOT OK

     

    What did you use to encode the file?

    DTS-HD MAS?

    If so, did you encode to Blu Ray specs, because when I look at it in streamtools, it verifies correctly but when I put it in the streamplayer, it says

    "UNKNOWNFORMAT_dialnorm"

    It's also a stereo file, and AFAIK DTS Core Audio in stereo at full bitrate is pointless, as you end up with a data stream the same as the LPCM it started as, but with content thrown away - therefore you must be getting weird stream containers.

     

    Is it supposed to be in stereo?

    If so, why encode to DTS full bitrate?

     
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    May 11, 2011 10:20 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    FotisGreece wrote:

     

    Hi, it was encoded in DTS MAS,

    destination format: dvd .cpt

    bitrate: 754 and 1509 accordingly

    dialog norm: -31

    sample rate: 48000

    channel: 2.0

     

    1) It was encoded in dvd format because if you choose destination bluray the file comes as dtshd and it is not imported at all in Encore

    2) It is a stereo file just simply because it is for testing, doesn't matter if we gain anything or not, it is just testing.

     


    If you study my results you will see that the 754.cpt file is used with no problem for BluRay project building. But the 1509.cpt file is not.

     

    If you check the mediainfo analysis it interprets the 754.cpt file as 755 bitrate and the 1509 as 1510 bitrate (whereas the dts stream tool correctly reports them as 754 and 1509 bitrate respectively).

     

    So it seems that Encore is doing the same thing. If Encore is strict about BluRay specs (max bitrate 1509) it reports it as not legal as it interprets it wrongly as 1510 Kb/s.

    Fot the file with 754 (interpreted wrongly as 755 kb/s) there is no problem as it is way before the max bitrate limit.

     

    That is my first guess.

     

    I understrand this is for testing, but it's a flawed test as the stereo DTS file is a contradiction in terms.

    Just saying, really, that a much better test would be with a 5.1 DTS Core Audio file.

    Quite simply, stereo .cpt DTS Core Audio just is not mandatory in the specs, and is most likely unsupported.

    I'm just not seeing anything that suggests it is not supported, but every mention of DTS Core Audio is talking about 5.1.

    Normally, stereo in DTS Core Audio is just not really done at full bitrate - never once have I seen it.

     

    What does happen if you try a proper 5.1 encoding? (just to test)

     
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    May 25, 2011 10:07 PM   in reply to FotisGreece

    Hi,

     

    I tried with various other tools from Sonic and VLC player etc.

    The bit rate info that these tools show for your files is out of the BD spec limit.

    So it would be great if you try to create a file with lesser bit rate and then take it to encore and burn it. I think there will be no problem then.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

     
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    May 26, 2011 6:28 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    I tried with VLC player which reads it as 1568Kbps .

    En passes only those dts files through which are in agreement with the Blu-ray spec.

    If it lets the other streams pass through it, then there might be problem while playing it on the player.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

     
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    May 26, 2011 8:07 AM   in reply to FotisGreece
    I don't know why various windows application report it as 1510 or more, But the dts streamtool in the DTS MAS after analyzing it give the correct bitrate of 1509.  Maybe you could try and have a chat with DTS systems why this is happening and how could it be fixed in Encore.

    Actually, you should have a chat with DTS to find out why the file created by DTS MAS is being seen by 3 different Windows applications as having an illegal bit rate.  Whatever's wrong with the file that's causing En to not see the selected bit rate is causing the same issue in other Windows apps; it's obviously a problem with the file.

     

    -Jeff

     
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    Jun 17, 2011 4:59 PM   in reply to FotisGreece

    ..What decoder does Encore get it's bitrate info reported from? An installed windows decoder or an app-internal Encore decoder?

     

     

     

    This is a very serious issue btw and needs to be dealt with swiftly, as it renders Encore practically useless for people who deal with primarily HD / Blu-ray content. I've found workarounds for its other bugs and quirks, but this right here is ridiculous. Not only can I not use HD audio (won't even import dtshd files), but the only solution is to cut the bitrate of my already core-quality audio tracks in half. Completely unacceptable.

     
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    Jun 18, 2011 3:11 PM   in reply to FotisGreece

    I was thinking (optimistically) that maybe the fix for these windows apps was as easy as changing the windows decoder to something that reported more accurately.

     

     

    For now, I see two options, potential "before or after hacks" to make this work:

     

    Modify the dts/cpt files to make them look 1509kbps or lower, then import,

     

    Modify the built BDMV folder files from Encore, created with a "dummy" low-bitrate dts file, with a program like bdfix or bdedit.

     

    For the first option, my original thought was to go with DTS-HD MAS, Surcode DVD-DTS, or with free software like eac3to and attempt to encode the files to a slightly lower bitrate, which after a significant amount of time fiddling with each program, I quickly concluded impossible (there are no options to change the bitrate further with dts (non-hd) audio other than the standard 1509/754 with MAS, and the 1536/768 with DVD-DTS, and eac3to won't even recognize commands to encode to anything other than the latter two bitrates.

     

    I then downloaded HxD, a free hex editor, imported a file in, and felt immediately cold and isolated. I quickly closed it, before depression started to sink in.

     

    For the second option, I went to try to BDFix as an earlier poster suggested, but refuse to pay $600-$1000 to fix a problem that should not exist. I then went for BDedit, a free -- albeit with less automated functionality -- tool, opened it, loaded my bdmv.index file, and immediately went cross-eyed. I decided I would try to do on my own with no structure edit, by muxing the proper audio with the video and subs into a custom .M2TS file using TsMuxer, and replace the main film .M2TS in the STREAM directory within the BDMV folder. I then built the ISO (using ImgBurn) and while this did effectively use the new audio, the video now has a horrible seeking issue, where it glitches and takes forever to switch chapters or move the slider to a later scene in the timeline. This more than likely being due to the new audio not matching what the files somewhere in the BDMV folder are expecting.

     

    So, until someone good at hex or BD structure editing steps up with some assistance, or one of us becomes fluent at either, we are at the mercy of Adobe to actually make this product work.

     

    Of course, there is a third option: go with Scenarist. Which I would gladly do at this point, had I not already expended the money, time, and effort of acquiring and learning this buggy software. If this issue isn't fixed soon, I may begrudgingly be forced to do so.
     
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    Jun 20, 2011 4:34 AM   in reply to DizzyBoyDizzy

    DizzyBoyDizzy wrote:

     

    I was thinking (optimistically) that maybe the fix for these windows apps was as easy as changing the windows decoder to something that reported more accurately.

     

     

    For now, I see two options, potential "before or after hacks" to make this work:

     

    Modify the dts/cpt files to make them look 1509kbps or lower, then import,

     

    Modify the built BDMV folder files from Encore, created with a "dummy" low-bitrate dts file, with a program like bdfix or bdedit.

     

    For the first option, my original thought was to go with DTS-HD MAS, Surcode DVD-DTS, or with free software like eac3to and attempt to encode the files to a slightly lower bitrate, which after a significant amount of time fiddling with each program, I quickly concluded impossible (there are no options to change the bitrate further with dts (non-hd) audio other than the standard 1509/754 with MAS, and the 1536/768 with DVD-DTS, and eac3to won't even recognize commands to encode to anything other than the latter two bitrates.

     

    I then downloaded HxD, a free hex editor, imported a file in, and felt immediately cold and isolated. I quickly closed it, before depression started to sink in.

     

    For the second option, I went to try to BDFix as an earlier poster suggested, but refuse to pay $600-$1000 to fix a problem that should not exist. I then went for BDedit, a free -- albeit with less automated functionality -- tool, opened it, loaded my bdmv.index file, and immediately went cross-eyed. I decided I would try to do on my own with no structure edit, by muxing the proper audio with the video and subs into a custom .M2TS file using TsMuxer, and replace the main film .M2TS in the STREAM directory within the BDMV folder. I then built the ISO (using ImgBurn) and while this did effectively use the new audio, the video now has a horrible seeking issue, where it glitches and takes forever to switch chapters or move the slider to a later scene in the timeline. This more than likely being due to the new audio not matching what the files somewhere in the BDMV folder are expecting.

     

    So, until someone good at hex or BD structure editing steps up with some assistance, or one of us becomes fluent at either, we are at the mercy of Adobe to actually make this product work.

     

    Of course, there is a third option: go with Scenarist. Which I would gladly do at this point, had I not already expended the money, time, and effort of acquiring and learning this buggy software. If this issue isn't fixed soon, I may begrudgingly be forced to do so.

    Sorry to sound negative here, but all this strikes me as a complete waste of time as Encore is not actually decoding anything here.

    DTS support is passthrough only, unless something has changed in CS5.5 variant that I do not yet know about.

    It's the application importer that has the problem, as 1510 reported instead of 1509 on PC notwithstanding, I am having no trouble at all in actual authoring with DTS files (using the .cpt variant) in Scenarist at all. As the 2 apps use the same authorcore, it's got to be the importer and not windows otherwise it would all fall apart in Scenarist too.

    FWIW, DVD-Lab Pro gives 1536kbps as the bitrate for imported DTS files, clearly wrong, yet still it gets things right in the actual compile stage.

    The coders blame this on the file headers, and say it simply is not an issue to worry about.

    Also, editing with stuff like eac3to is not going to work for BD as the verification will doubtless fail more often than not when fed out of spec assets - the creation of which is highly likely in reverse engineered "encoders" as this has to be.

     

    The other reason I think the problem must be in the importer is because of what happens on attempting to import DTS-HD files in high resolution or Master Audio format - it just does not work as Encore's importers get it all wrong & ignore the VBR code, treating it all as CBR with disastrous results.

    I cannot understand why mandatory codecs are not implemented - makes no sense to me at all - so I feel your pain here as DTS Core Audio is a mandatory stream for Blu Ray inasmuch as all players must be capable of decoding it, yet it's broken.

    Another missing in action codec is 5.1 LPCM too.....maybe the developers do not think audio is important!

     
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    Aug 17, 2011 6:07 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    The files given by you were also shared with the Sonic (3rd party tool, Encore uses for BD burning and for checking the BD legality of the files).

    They also said that the files were not BD compliant with their bit rates being above BD-spec range.

    i think this might be the issue with The DTS encoder used. You should check with them.

     

    Thanks,

    Ramesh.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 6, 2012 2:07 AM   in reply to FotisGreece

    Hi everybody! After one year from this post and after trying to build a BD with DTS sound, i experienced after 29 tests that:

     

    - Only DTS file with 768kbps was admited and procesed by Encore.

     

    - A single DTS track MUST be used; no reels, no audio-chapters. Only one reel / one clip for DTS audio!

     

    - You can add a second track with stereo, splitted in reels or chapters. Also the video can be in reels and chapters.

     

    I was able to build a feature film in BD with DTS + Stereo, with 5 subtitles, in a 25GB disk.

     
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    May 7, 2012 5:08 AM   in reply to SALAZAROO

    Hi All.

     

    Firstly, the DTS-HD MAS suite does indeed make fully legal bitstreams for Blu-Ray, DVD and DTS-CD as well as digital delivery.

    If Encore is getting it wrong, and also other windows applications are likewise getting it wrong whereas DoStudio & Scenarist accept it, then there has to be a reason why.

     

    The good news is that CS6 now supports DTS-HD Master Audio in passthrough modes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 8, 2012 10:08 AM   in reply to Neil Wilkes
    The good news is that CS6 now supports DTS-HD Master Audio in passthrough modes.

     

    Sweet! 

     
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