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elliot_the _little_monkey
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Indesign CS5 empty text frames

Jul 5, 2010 3:00 PM

Working on a document in CS5 that has footnotes.

 

Whenever I take a correction into a page the facing page becomes blank and the text flows to the following frame.If I enter another correction it may fix itself ... until the next correction, when it does it again. And again.

This is not a refresh issue.

To fix I have to resize the empty frame and then resize it back to original size - at which point the text reflows throught the frame again.

 

This is driving me mental.

 

Anyone else have this problem?

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 5, 2010 4:03 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    Anyone else have this problem?

     

    Oh sure.

     

    .. This is driving me mental.

     

    Oh sure.

     

    It has been like this since CS2 -- the introduction of this footnote function. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It may not only produce totally empty textframes, ID also may suddenly decide not to reformat pages after some major editing, so you end up with a lot of empty lines at the bottom of a frame and the rest (usually, but not always, the first next page with a footnote) is not recomposed. If you jiggle the size of the underfilled frame, ID wakes up and recomposes. Forcing a total recompose with the standard hotkey (http://indesignsecrets.com/force-text-reflow-when-indesign-forgets-to- flow-the-text.php) usually also does the job -- but you are screwed if you forgot to do this at any time and get a major reflow on your next edit!

     

    I dunno, it seems footnotes were tacked on with spit & tape from their very first conception, and no-one bothered to look at them again. (Read http://indesignsecrets.com/michael-ninness-answers-indesign-cs5-critic s.php for a sort of official stance on 'notes. Seems just you and I -- and Eugene Tyson -- use these but no-one else does.)

     
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    Jul 5, 2010 4:47 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    It's as I said: it must have a priority way below coding up something really new & exciting for CS6, like full video editing.

     

    Our entire department will revert to CS4 if we must.

     

    Are you sure that version worked flawless with notes? I've encountered (and reported) this same bug in CS2, CS3, and CS4. Or does CS5 not just works as bad, but even (gasp!) worse?

     
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    Jul 5, 2010 5:13 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    I'm sure they put something in their license to protect them against stuff like this.

     

    In the mean time, add your voice to the Improve Footnotes Please thread for others to read, and send Adobe both a Feature Request ("improve! improve!") and a bug report ("result: it does not work; expected result: it ought to work"). I have no idea of the actual volume of feature requests they gather per major revision, but maybe together we can over-shout the "more SWF features" fans.

     
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    Jul 10, 2010 12:45 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    I've added my voice to the chorus, via the feature request/bug form. I also regularly need to be able to add footnotes to tables; to be able to cross-reference a specific note number (with updating, should the note number change, etc.). And the empty text-frame bug is very annoying, to say the least, for such a "high-end" piece of software.

     
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    Jul 16, 2010 2:12 AM   in reply to Jim Eisenbraun

    I've just encountered this empty text frame footnote bug, for the very first time, in CS5. Never happened to me in previous versions. Looks like we'll have to revert to CS4 for jobs containing footnotes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2010 3:06 AM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    Elliot & Jongware: you're not alone. By far. See this post (title translates to: "Suddenly Empty Page") on a Swizz/German InDesign forum from 2006, refreshed (Haha!) every time when a new version of InDesign was published:

     

    http://bit.ly/dykVyl

     

    Martin Fischer of the forum has filed a bug report.

     

    I've seen that "empty text frames"-problem the first time in InDesign CS2. Jongware, you think it's related to the footnote feature in a way. At the time I had that problem, I can recall, that no footnotes were involved.

     

    Uwe

     
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    Oct 23, 2010 12:11 PM   in reply to Laubender

    Well, I know about this bug since CS2.

    And it occurred in CS3 and CS4 sometimes, but rarely.

    One had to pay attention for this before making the PDF for the printer.

     

    But in CS5 this bug appears more frequently than ever before.

    You don't have to pay special attention. Yesterday it catched my eyes about a good dozen times.

     

    Somebody has given the hint to me to force a total recompose with the standard hotkey. Well this did the job at the page I had focussed on.

    But in the preflight palette I could detect that one overflow has disappeared while some other overflows have come in sight.

     

    Ultimately I couldn't make a complete printout of my documents with every linked textframe filled with text.

    So I turned back to InDesign CS4 via IDML and did a good and satisfying job there. ;-)

     

    In my count InDesign CS5 works distinctly worse with long texts and many footnotes than previous versions.

    I cannot use it to do jobs like this. Though I like the paragraphs that span the columns (did I forget anything else? No footnote improvement since CS2!).

    Currently InDesign CS5 with this behaviour is useless for me.

     

    Martin Fischer

     
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    Dec 14, 2010 1:48 AM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    Without skirting around the issue I have to agree with all of the preceding posts. I have met several companies and users that will definitely NOT switch to InDesign CS5 after getting involved with this issue. If Adobe doesn't address this issue quickly, they will loose the trust of many professional typesetters.

     

    It seems that Adobe doesn't take notice of this problem although they received several bug reports about it. We – as the user base – will do our best to spread the word about this severe issue when using footnotes results in arbitrary empty pages. We would be glad if Adobe would at least respond to our inquiries.

     

    – Otoya

     
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    May 6, 2011 2:20 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    Have there been any reports that ID CS 5.5 fixes this noxious weed of a bug (to mix metaphors)? I can find nothing to suggest that this has been fixed. Anyone know? Else, ID CS 5.5 seems to be an underwhelming upgrade.

     
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    Sep 1, 2011 2:54 AM   in reply to Jim Eisenbraun

    In my tests CS 5.5 does NOT fix the issue. And it also is worrying that this forum thread has only a few posts yet.

    There must be many more typesetters with this problem which can hardly stay unnoticed. Raise your voice.

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 4:13 AM   in reply to Jako-mx

    Still in CS4, the problem occurs from time to time, but not often.

    Another bug bothered me a lot with the footnotes/endnotes, the loss of some of them when importing Word documents...

    The only way to solve this is to import .docx documents, no .doc or .rtf.

    I was also astonished by the lack of reactions about this bug, still not solved in CS5 (don't know about 5.5).

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 4:20 AM   in reply to MRaj01

    Loss of footnotes when importing .doc files? Having this problem for a long time now. Not fixed in CS5, dunno about CS5.5.

    Really really bad when footnotes are being lost…

    Using .docx only partially fixes this problem, because of InDesign crashes (for more info search for "betalogue docx" on the web).

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 4:32 AM   in reply to Jako-mx

    Thanks, I'll remember this betalogue info !

    Although I don't think the docx crashes CS4.

    And I forgot to add that I didn't have that footnotes bug in CS3.

     

    That reflow bug in CS5 will keep me working with CS4.

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 5:22 AM   in reply to Jako-mx

    Loss of footnotes when importing .doc files? Having this problem for a long time now. Not fixed in CS5, dunno about CS5.5.

     

    The loss of footnotes sometimes is caused by the occurence of a single quote \u201A or a cyrillic ka \u043a.

    So sometimes (but not allways) you can prevent this error by changing this characters to a code like #001# in MS Word before placing the doc into an InDesign document and changing this codes back to the previous characters.

     

    But sometimes this does not help and the footnotes get lost even if doc has been converted to docx or RTF.

    (Yesterday I have started to typeset a book with about 600 pages and I didn't have found a way to prevent the loss of about 100 footnotes, so I have to copy and paste the footnotes from Word to InDesign and to reformat them there particular )

     

     

    That reflow bug in CS5 will keep me working with CS4.

    So do I.

    But sometimes it is useful to place docx-files in CS5, export IDML and work with CS4.

    Placing docx-files in CS5 sometimes is better (with less errors) than placing doc-files in CS5 or CS4.

     

    So CS5 is not completely useless for me.

    It's good for an improvement of doc-import.

    But after the import it's better to work long text documents in CS4 because of the reflow-bug in CS5/CS5.5.

     

    Martin

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 6:17 AM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    Martin, yesterday I had yet another particular troublesome Word document that didn't import in CS4 (nor in CS3, and in none of its variants .doc, .docx, or .rtf) and so I finally resorted to trying it with the single CS5.5 we have. It worked. But instead of exporting as IDML and then opening that in CS4 and then copying the text out of it into the proper template ... I just exported the text immediately as RTF again. As things go, this new file imported without any unusual problems into CS4.

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 6:27 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    Did'nt you try to do a Word .docx to .html and then back to .docx (betalogue solution for .docx not importing) ?

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 6:42 AM   in reply to MRaj01

    No, never heard of that. I'll try this one next time, thanks!

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 7:20 AM   in reply to MRaj01

     

    Did'nt you try to do a Word .docx to .html and then back to .docx (betalogue solution for .docx not importing) ?

     

    I did a try to export doc to html and then back to doc.

    This sometimes helped in the past.

    But this time it did not help.

    With the new doc placed in InDesign about 150 footnotes have got lost – 50 footnotes more than before.

    Tried also to convert characters from an 8-bit greek font to unicode before placing the doc in InDesign.

    But this also did not solve the problem.

     

    But now we have got off topic.

     

    InDesign has a problem placing docs correctly since ... really in CS3, CS4 and CS5, too.

    But with InDesign CS5 a new big problem has come and didn't have gone even in CS 5.5: the frequently clearing of text frames.

     

    We have discussed this subject in a german forum deeply: plötzlich leere Seite.

    We have written bug reports and we have explored some context to reproduce the error.

    We have recorded screen-videos which show how textframes go empty and send them to InDesign Secrets and Adobe support and have described the properties of paragraphs that force the problem.

    But we never heard that someone of the engineers has taken notice of that.

    I didn't read anything about this error in the lists of known issues.

    And we never have seen a step of correction in one of the subversions and main versions of InDesign since we reported the bug in early days of InDesign CS5.

     

    But otherwise we have an InDesign to make things interactive! 

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 8:00 AM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    But otherwise we have an InDesign to make things interactive! 

    Yeah  ! 

     

    I think that each time there's a new version of the program, we need to buy a new computer, so we can easily switch from one version to another...

    I still have a computer with CS (don't know, one with CS2 and CS3 on another one

     
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    Sep 22, 2011 11:22 PM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    The video which shows the clearing of a text frame, recorded by Yves Apel, can be viewed on http://www.vimeo.com/29437519.

     

    We have found out that the bug has to do with the keep options of footnote paragraphs.

    If the rules for keeping lines together at start of paragraph (eg. 2 lines) do not allow to place the footnote reference at the last line of a text frame, which could be placed there if only keeping lines together at start of paragraph would be disabled, the bug can be reproduced by applying a character format or a charstyle back and forward.

     

    There might be other triggers for the unwanted clearing of text frames, but the restrictive keep options of footnote paragraphs are one of them.

     
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    Sep 23, 2011 5:23 AM   in reply to Martin Fischer

    For goodness' sake -- I thought I was all alone with this problem and agree with everything said above. I did ask the question of a user group but was told that InD CS5 was 'very stable' so thought it was something to do with me/my iMac. My solution (when I see it -- luckily the publisher I work for has beady eyes and loves spotting mistakes!) is to move the text frame a hair's breadth. I do feel that Adobe doesn't really concentrate on the long documents side of things.

     

    Actually I feel better knowing I'm not alone ... thanks!

     
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    Sep 23, 2011 5:33 AM   in reply to Ann_Farr

    I do feel that Adobe doesn't really concentrate on the long documents side of things.

     
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    Oct 4, 2011 1:45 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    I've been running into this problem right and left as well. I'm currently typesetting a 400(ish) page book with literally hundreds of footnotes, so you can imagine how often this crops up! Good to know I am not alone. My "fix" is to click on the blank frame as if changing the threading. This makes the text pop back into place. I then hit esc without actually changing anything. Anyway, like I said, glad to know it's not just me.

     
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    Oct 4, 2011 2:16 PM   in reply to GESwebmaster

    Adobe's version of the "three-finger salute" (option-command-solidus {slash} on the Mac) also works to force rejustification at any time--which will temporarily refill the empty text frame; of course, the next time you edit anything, it may (and often) does revert to empty. We've done dozens of books/journal issues in the past 2 years, all the time dealing with this nasty bug. I don't think Adobe is listening.

     
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    Oct 4, 2011 2:17 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    Another aspect of ID's problems with footnotes and incomplete refreshing is the way ID forgets the settings for the Rule Above for Continued Footnotes when these differ from First Footnote in Column. The fix is to change either setting and then restore what you really want, but I shouldn't have to remember to do this last thing before closing a file.  I forgot recently, and was saved by an eagle-eyed editor.  I still use IDCS4 for most work.  I have 5.5 but this thread doesn't encourage me to make the move.

     

    David

     
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    Nov 16, 2011 8:26 AM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    I realize I'm late to this party, but I kept thinking the reflow problem in CS 5.5 was just with me; I hadn't seen it with CS4. This on top of the Rule Above Continued Footnotes diasppearing act really does make me wish Adobe would revisit footnotes seriously. Thanks for the "jiggle the frame" trick in the meantime.

     
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    Dec 14, 2011 3:35 AM   in reply to GESwebmaster

    GESwebmaster wrote:

     

    … My "fix" is to click on the blank frame as if changing the threading. This makes the text pop back into place. I then hit esc without actually changing anything. Anyway, like I said, glad to know it's not just me.

     

    That is a great tip, thank you! The method I used was to add a space at the offending paragraph's end, just before the return mark, but that is ugly. I also don't like touching the frames.

     

    The recompose shortcut sometimes creates empty pages somwhere else in the dcoument.

     

    About the Word to InDesign process, I use some macros to convert Word formatting to tags (bold, italics, superscripts etc.) and do the same for footnotes. I then use the reFoot.js script to recreate footnpotes from the tags. Then I set styles for footnotes and, only then, I convert the formatting tags to their equivalents. It's long but it doesn't loose footnotes.

     
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    Feb 15, 2012 12:55 PM   in reply to elliot_the _little_monkey

    Regarding the author's original issue...I am having the same issue in CS 5.5. I'm surprised by the other posts because this is the FIRST version that I have encountered this issue.

     

    My document DOES NOT have footnotes in it, yet I am still experiencing the issue of the disappearing text. I have to resize the text frame to get the content to reappear. It is not always on the adjacent page though, sometimes is on a totally random page elsewhere in the document. I can type something on page 35, and all of a sudden if I scroll down to page 168, that text has disappeared! It is never a result of overset tex either. In fact, I purposely starting leaving the text frames too long just to see what happens, but that doesn't help either.

     

    This issue has been driving myself and the other designer I work with CRAZY!!!! We work on very lengthy books, and constantly having to drag text boxes around is ridiculously time consuming, inefficient and most of all aggravating. We did not have this problem when we were using CS4 last year. I wish we could go back!

     

    If Adobe ever releases an update of some sort to fix this, or if anybody finds a fix or a workaround, please please share.

     
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