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Re: Waiting for forums.adobe.com...

Sep 19, 2011 2:38 PM

Well, the new software helps some, but you guys reeeeeeally need new hardware.  I'm still getting those dreaded five words "Waiting for forums.adobe.com..." on a 15/5 FiOS connection.

Branched from an earlier discussion.
 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 19, 2011 2:39 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Branched this off to a new thread, as all the content in the old referred to a different hardware platform.

     

    I am not seeing slowdowns. Where are you located?

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 19, 2011 3:22 PM   in reply to adobe-admin

    I was seeing them this morning around 10:00AM also. That's the last I've seen of them though. Now it's pretty zippy.

     

    I'm in Olympia Washington.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 19, 2011 4:00 PM   in reply to adobe-admin

    Vancouver WA USA, campus network on a shared T3 (three T1 lines, I think) I have noticed intermittent slowness all day

     

    But... after once talking to our IT department about spam (our little branch campus gets about 100k per month) this could just be an overloaded Internet

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 19, 2011 4:53 PM   in reply to John T Smith

    I am temporarily out of town and using a very slow 3G mobile conection, so I cannot really compare with what was the "normal" behaviour before the upgrade. My general impression, though, is that things seem at least as fast as usual. I'll probably be able to check better tomorrow afternoon...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 19, 2011 7:34 PM   in reply to Claudio González

    Although much faster there is a wait time. I sent a movie clip concerning another iss and told him to disregard the yellow screen That was screen when wait for site to come up.

    I now have a 3 GB DSL which is 4 times faster than my Old DSL line.

     

    I'll show it here: http://screencast.com/t/P8l5f9p78IAf

     

    Now watch the the movie and pay attention to the yellow screen. THis is about average wait today. It is much faster than the old system.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 7:33 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Read 3 longish threads in the Google SEO forum waiting for this page to load and hoping this post gets through.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 9:08 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    >browser makes the actual connection to the Adobe server in milliseconds, then just sits there waiting for the server to do it's job and serve

     

    I agree with Jim... initial contact takes less than a second, and THEN the wait time for the server to serve is highly variable

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 3:08 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim,

     

    Though I have only been on the new Jive for a very few days, I have not seen those issues, and I am on a Wireless-G on this laptop, though the main connection is high-speed cable. Things seem (no benchmarks) to be about 20% faster, at least for me.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 3:51 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    >about 20% faster

     

    Most of the time (both home & work) I agree that the forum "seems" faster

     

    But, as before the upgrade, things are not faster 100% of the time for 100% of operations (again, both home & work)

     

    But, as I've mentioned before, I've talked to IT where I work, and also read online magazine articles, so I know that a large % (as much as 80% ?) of web traffic is spam, so a new & heavy spambot operation could certainly slow the entire Internet to a crawl at any given time

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 4:59 PM   in reply to John T Smith

    I don’t have the exact figures available, but we are seeing 4x as many bot/crawler page views in forums as user page views per month.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
    5,572 posts
    Jun 25, 2009
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    Sep 20, 2011 5:37 PM   in reply to adobe-admin

    Delays logging into the forum seem about as bad as they ever were. Clicking login on this page and entering my adobe id/pw, there was about a 10 second delay before I was returned to this page with an active "Reply" button.

     

    I suspect some of this is the horribly slow adobe.com servers involved in the adobe id authentication. I've observed similar nighmarish slowness trying to login to both adobe.com/go/supportportal and also partners.adobe.com.

     

     

    I don’t have the exact figures available, but we are seeing 4x as many bot/crawler page views in forums as user page views per month.

    If so, I would like to hope Jive does something clever to slow down the crawlers so they don't take up precious server resources and slow everything down for the rest of us. Like inserting artificial delays before serving them content, rate-limiting or traffic-shaping them, etc.

     

    Or is that too pie-in-the-sky?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 5:56 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Just received a notice from Adobe Jive was replacing a faulty cache card on a system aray, causing unusuallyslow load times.  said would be between 8-9 PM.  Problem is received the notice at 8:50 pm.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 5:57 PM   in reply to Phillip Jones

    It is only 5:57 here.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 6:33 PM   in reply to adobe-admin

    I don't know why I thought the system was based on East coast.

     

    No wonder it takes so long.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 20, 2011 6:48 PM   in reply to Phillip Jones

    I don't know why I thought the system was based on East coast.

     

    Not sure that the servers are located in the Official Adobe Compound, but would assume that they would be close by - maybe the Santa Cruz Mountain version of Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado Springs, CO.

     

    Just my guess,

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 21, 2011 9:28 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    Servers are Jive's and are in Colorado. But Jive's offices are on the west coast, so most forum things happen in pacific time.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 21, 2011 11:09 AM   in reply to adobe-admin

    Ah, Colorado. Maybe they ARE in Cheyenne Mountain... ?

     

    Thanks,

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Sep 22, 2011 8:38 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I have a good link and IE9 on a powerful workstation, and I'm on these forums a lot.

     

    I simply have not seen any slowdowns here in south Florida at all since the forum software was updated.

     

    I mention the computer power, because I believe there's quite a lot of script that runs on the user's system...  Could it be that what's perceived as a slow server is actually slow local processing?

     

    Some objective measurements just now with a stopwatch:

     

    In a fresh IE9 x64 browser window the time from choosing the shortcut to this site from the Favorites menu and screen paint:  1.6 seconds.

    Time to display my user box after hovering over my avatar:  0.8 seconds.

    Time to display this thread after choosing it from my user box:  1.2 seconds.

     

    C:\TEMP>ping forums.adobe.com

    Pinging adobe.hosted.jivesoftware.com [216.245.178.32] with 32 bytes of data:
    Reply from 216.245.178.32: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=234
    Reply from 216.245.178.32: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=234
    Reply from 216.245.178.32: bytes=32 time=45ms TTL=234
    Reply from 216.245.178.32: bytes=32 time=45ms TTL=234

     

    I'd be curious to hear what others are seeing for these times, and what variation is seen.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Sep 22, 2011 8:41 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    C:\TEMP>tracert forums.adobe.com

    Tracing route to adobe.hosted.jivesoftware.com [216.245.178.32]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

      1     4 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.2.1
      2     1 ms     1 ms    <1 ms  173.199.192.1
      3     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  10.52.0.53
      4     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  10.52.0.41
      5     3 ms     1 ms     1 ms  10.52.0.77
      6     2 ms     1 ms     1 ms  10.50.0.17
      7     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  10.50.0.13
      8     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  10.50.0.29
      9     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  10.50.0.42
    10    19 ms     2 ms    16 ms  ae5-191.edge2.miami1.level3.net [4.59.84.93]
    11    15 ms     2 ms    14 ms  ae-31-51.ebr1.Miami1.Level3.net [4.69.138.94]
    12    30 ms    31 ms    30 ms  ae-2-2.ebr1.Dallas1.Level3.net [4.69.140.133]
    13    31 ms    30 ms    30 ms  ae-71-71.csw2.Dallas1.Level3.net [4.69.151.137]
    14    31 ms    31 ms    31 ms  ae-72-72.ebr2.Dallas1.Level3.net [4.69.151.142]
    15    45 ms    44 ms    44 ms  ae-2-2.ebr1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.69.132.105]
    16   275 ms    44 ms    44 ms  ae-11-51.car1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.69.147.67]
    17    45 ms    45 ms    45 ms  SUNGARD-NET.car1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.53.0.118]
    18    45 ms    45 ms    45 ms  209.46.54.39
    19    46 ms    45 ms    46 ms  65.168.255.156
    20    46 ms    46 ms    45 ms  216.245.178.32

    Trace complete.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Sep 22, 2011 9:01 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel, you are losing the forest for the trees.

    The roundtrip times are not relevant to the problem -- they are in the tens of millseconds, and the delays that users are seeing are measured in seconds (100 times longer than 10ms). That means that the network is not the bottleneck, and is perfectly fine.

     

    Given the round-trip times, measured by ping, the delays shown by traceroute are even less relevant (perhaps that's why you edited out your quip about 1/3 time in Denver). Routers do not respond with ICMP TIME EXCEDED replies (used by traceroute) with the same priority as regular raffic. So you may see cases where the times reported by traceroute are greater than the end-to-end times reported by ping. This is a case of the diagnostic tool giving you misleading (and irrelevant) information. If the round-trip times with ping are satisfactory, as they are, there is no need to look deeper into the network (such as with traceroute), and doing so is just going to confuse and mislead.

     

    But since you ask, for me right now, from Cambridge,MA at MIT to Jive via Sprintlink:

     

     

    PING adobe.hosted.jivesoftware.com (216.245.178.32): 56 data bytes
    ...
    --- adobe.hosted.jivesoftware.com ping statistics ---
    7 packets transmitted, 7 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
    round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 49.355/49.754/50.358/0.324 ms
    

     

    Much more useful information is the time to retrieve a page. It's hard to instrument that as easily, because a brower has to retreive multiple HTTP URLs from different servers to render the page, including the page itself, the css, cookies, Adobe ID crap, images, etc. But if we look at just the base page, it gives you a sense of the time. Unfortunately I don't have a good tool to do that reporting, since curl (to my surprise!) doesn't seem to give the total elapsed stat. But we can fake it well enough with 'time':

     

     

    $ time curl -O 'http://forums.adobe.com/message/3932147' 
      % Total    % Received % Xferd  Average Speed   Time    Time     Time  Current
                                     Dload  Upload   Total   Spent    Left  Speed
    100 42390    0 42390    0     0   112k      0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:--  132k
    
    real    0m0.392s
    user    0m0.005s
    sys     0m0.021s
    

     

    That is, it took 392ms of wall-clock time to transfer the this current thread.  Much much greater than the round-trip time, so we can safely discount the round-trip time as being relevant.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    Sep 22, 2011 9:18 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    We can get some browser stats with Firebug, though, a Firefox extension that lets you look at the network traffic, among other things.

    Here's what we get for a simple page load of this thread, without being logged into the site. It actualy takes 8.37 seconds to load everything:

     

    threadtop.png
    theadbot.png

    And that's an unauthenticated session. If I try to login, such as to post this reply, it's much much worse, 19.84 seconds. I'm not going to try to pare this one down to fit in 450x600 px, you'll have to click on it to see it all:

    1984sec.png

     

    Anyhow, no way those 40ms rtts are relevant, even if they were slow (which they're not -- that's limited by the speed of light, really.)

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Sep 22, 2011 12:01 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    I agree, the IP network isn't the issue. I just posted those times because server locations were being discussed.

    I did some additional testing, and I think that the automatic login time is the lion's share of the initial wait to get into the site, and it's QUITE variable.

     

    The computer power you have makes a difference.

     

    Also, the choice of browser can make things seem consistently slow - or snappy. Here are my results:


    System: WIndows 7 x64. Times measured to the nearest 0.2 seconds with a stopwatch from hitting return after entering the URL below into the address bar until your table image above was painted. All browsers freshly started to the same home page prior to each test.

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/message/3932187#3932187

     

     

    Not logged-in:

     

    IE9 64 bit:     1.4,  1.4,  1.4
    IE9 32 bit:     2.0,  2.8,  2.4
    Firefox 6.0.2:  3.2,  3.0,  2.8
    Safari 5.0.5:   3.0,  4.0,  3.6

     

     

    Logged in automatically  after checking "Remember me" during a  previous logon process:

     

    IE9 64 bit:     4.4,  5.0,  3.6 
    IE9 32 bit:     4.0,  4.0,  7.4
    Firefox 6.0.2:  5.0,  4.8,  8.4
    Safari 5.0.5:   7.2,  6.0,  6.2

     

     

    Times for logged-in browser to display the discussions list by clicking on the Adobe Forums > Adobe general forums > Forum comments > Discussions link:

     

    IE9 64 bit:     1.4,  1.4,  1.4
    IE9 32 bit:     1.8,  2.2,  8.0
    Firefox 6.0.2:  2.0,  2.2,  2.0
    Safari 5.0.5:   2.0,  2.4,  1.8

     

    As you can see from the numbers above, some browsers work through the same operations quite a bit more quickly than others. This makes my observation that computer speed may be a big factor in the perception of forum speed all the more pertinent.


    Subjectively, for me, when something takes more than 2 seconds to display, it feels like it's going a bit long. Under that and I don't notice it.

     

    P.S., here's the measurement to log in and display this page in IE9 64 bit in detail.  This goes with the second set of numbers above.


    GetOfThisPage.jpg

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,488 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Sep 22, 2011 12:29 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    John Hawkinson wrote:


    It actualy takes 8.37 seconds to load everything:

     

    Actually - on your system.  It's interesting that people tend to share their own experiences as fact without qualifcation.

     

    For fun I just did some additional tests here on my machine using the IE10 developer preview.  This is running in Windows 8 in a VMware virtual machine without access to all my system resources - for one thing the GPU acceleration is nowhere near as good as on my host workstation; for another I also have a second VM booted up at the moment.  Also, Microsoft has the Win8/IE10 software laced with logging and telemetry code.

     

    Not logged-in:

     

    IE10 64 bit: 2.4,  2.8,  2.6
    IE10 32 bit: 2.8,  3.8,  2.8

     

     

    Logged in automatically after checking "Remember me" during a previous logon process:

     

    IE10 64 bit: 4.2,  4.6,  4.8

    IE10 32 bit: 5.8,  6.2,  6.0

     

    Times for logged-in browser to display the discussions list by clicking on the Adobe Forums > Adobe general forums > Forum comments > Discussions link:

     

    IE10 64 bit: 2.2,  2.0,  1.8

    IE10 32 bit: 2.4,  2.4,  2.8

     

     

    Interestingly, IE10 seems to be able to complete the logon process on the Adobe site faster than any other browser I tested.

     

    Next I'm installing Safari 5.1 to see if it's improved on the speed of its predecessor any...

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Sep 22, 2011 1:03 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Wow, Apple software is awfully aggressive.  I had to carve out all kinds of unwanted stuff (e.g., Bonjour) just after installing their browser.

     

    Safari 5.1 measurements:

     

    Not logged-in:

     

    Safari 5.1 (7534.50):  2.4,  2.0,  2.2

     

     

    Logged in automatically after checking "Remember me" during a previous logon process:

     

    Safari 5.1 (7534.50):  3.0,  3.4,  3.8

     

     

    Times for logged-in browser to display the discussions list by clicking on the Adobe Forums > Adobe general forums > Forum comments > Discussions link:

     

    Safari 5.1 (7534.50):  2.0,  2.4,  1.4

     

     

    I thought perhaps we have a new leader in the browser speed races, at least as far as logging-in here and viewing a thread is concerned, but I tried IE9 64 bit again and got 2.4 second times - that's logged in timing!  Maybe Adobe just did something to speed up their login database server?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Sep 26, 2011 11:25 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    FYI, though there seemed to be some kind of outage earlier today, now I'm seeing consistent times under 2 seconds getting into the forum initially (including login), then times from under 1 second to 2 seconds navigating from page to page.

     

    I'm curious what others are seeing.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Oct 8, 2011 11:51 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    For that they'd need more than better servers.  There is a HUGE amount of software running locally just to support this forum.

     

    Out of curiosity, what page load times do YOU actually see, Jim?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 8, 2011 12:25 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Not Jim, but I am seeing ~ 01 sec. for Adobe pages to load/update now (10/08/2011, and as of Noon PDT). However, when I posted this THREAD, times were often up to 05 mins. (longest that I actually timed, though others were in that range too). Things DID get better, so something changed.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Oct 9, 2011 11:13 AM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    I guess I tend to overlook the occasional slowdown, because I understand that maybe things fail, or maybe a system backup is using up some resources, or something.  But the implication that Adobe needs new servers needs to be backed up with measurement data.  Generally speaking, I'm not seeing long enough delays to make me want to ask them for new server hardware.


    But what I *DO* suspect is that the software Jive loads onto the client system (i.e., your computer while browsing the forum) is quite inefficient.  Hence the request for timing info along with some idea of the computer power you have (I know you have some pretty good systems, Bill).

     

    On my iPhone it takes an age for any page here to be displayed - 10 seconds or longer!  Using the very same fast Internet connection I can bring up the same page on my powerful workstation in 1 to 2 seconds.

     

    This leads me to believe that a large part of the delay many people see is because of inefficient forum scripts running on the client computer.

     

    I'd love to confirm this.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 9, 2011 6:01 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Are these scripts being sent by Jive?

     

    I tend to think Adobe is penny-pinching and just don't have enough servers to carry the load. Or using antique or archaic equipment. And not using state of the art Output connections (FOIS), or better.

     

    Thank goodness the speed issues are about the only thing we still have issues with.

    My own experience some days there are no delays. Then other days, every post can take up nearly a minute to post. Or some not post at all. I end up having to mark as unread and wait for the next day in the hopes Ican read post.

     

    Its either as you say poor scripting by Jive, or  the possibility I suggest, or there is simply a break down in one of the server links the post are passed to get from one desination or the other.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 9, 2011 6:12 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

     

    I am not advocating ANY change in servers. Right now, things are going pretty well. What I was referring to was the major slowdowns the other day, when it would take up to 5 mins. for a page to load. I would guess that there was either a problem, or that heavy maintenance was being done. Often, we get a notice of such things, but not that time.

     

    Also, it could have been that the gerbil had just run out of food, and the Adobe folk did not realize it, until a day had gone by. Hope that the gerbil lived...

     

    At this moment in time, 10/09/2011, 6:12PM PDT, things are good - don't change a thing! Also, make sure that there is enough Purina™ Gerbil Chow on hand.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 9, 2011 7:13 PM   in reply to Bill Hunt

    I've only received one notice since I have been a Adobforums User/Post (even back to the old system days any notice about maintenace/ Repairs and that was when they were switching to  the  4.5.6.3 Jive system.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Oct 10, 2011 12:32 PM   in reply to Phillip Jones

    Phillip Jones wrote:

     

    Are these scripts being sent by Jive?

     

    I tend to think Adobe is penny-pinching and just don't have enough servers to carry the load.

     

    Yes, several quite large blocks of script are transferred from the forum site to your computer.  But even small scripts can be inefficient - such is the beauty of object-oriented programming.

     

    While occasional faults can be explained by failures or excessive load, it's all too easy without thinking too hard to blame a server for consistently slow web page response, but if some folks are seeing fast response then it's likely not the server that's at fault!

     

    Good things to know in trying to nail this down would be:

     

    • Do you ever see it go fast (as in 1 to 2 second response) or is it consistently slow?
    • What browser version are you running and how much computer power do you have?

     

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2011 1:37 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Monday 10-10 response times from clicking a link to full page load is under 2 seconds... nothing changed at my end... so either the 'net in general is a LOT less busy, or the problem was with the Jive servers

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2011 4:18 PM   in reply to John T Smith

    Well, maybe it's Columbus Day in the US????

     

    Actually, things are so quick now, that I have been startled a few times, when Replies posted instantly, and I do mean instantly. Oct. 10, 2011 @ 4:20PM PST.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2011 4:35 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I’m not seeing any slowdowns, so I am guessing that an individual server node may be acting flaky, and some of you are stuck on that node.

     

    One way to determine which node you are on is by looking at the jive server cookie. It is pretty easy to locate in Firefox, not sure about other browsers:

     

    Options > Privacy

    Click on Remove Individual Cookies

    Search for Forums.adobe.com and look at the jive.server.info cookie (you might have to expand the window) and look for the localName

     

    For example, I’m hitting adobe-vm-wa04, so I’m on node 04. The full cookie looks like this:

     

    "serverName=forums.adobe.com:serverPort=80:contextPath=:localName=adob e-vm-wa04.sgvm2hosted.jiveland.com:localPort=9200:localAddr=127.0.0.1"

     

     

    Please report back which node you are on and if you are seeing slowdowns.

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 10, 2011 5:59 PM   in reply to adobe-admin

    I'm now connected to WA05 and seeing definite slowdowns and inconsistent performance. Already have a case opened to investigate from the Jive side.

     
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