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Spread Numbers

Nov 16, 2011 2:27 AM

Tags: #indesign #spreads #auto_numbering

Would very much like InDesign to support spread numbers.

 

We produce map books which have displayed spread numbers in each corner of each page:

 

Here's a typical example:

________________

|2     |      2|

|      |       |

|      |       |

|      |       |

|2_____|______2|

 

It would be very nice if InDeisgn would add support for this.  This is a page numbering scheeme frequenty used in map books and atlases.It would then be easier to add cross-references to the pages (geographocally) above, below, to the left and to the right of the current page.

 

Agnar

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2011 4:54 AM   in reply to arenol

    I think, if you thread the frames that contain these numbers, apply a style that sets each paragraph to start in a new frame (in the Keep options) and use previous page and next page markers in separate paragraphs you will get what you are looking for.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 16, 2011 6:50 AM   in reply to arenol

    Your link to InDesign Secrets goes nowhere, but if what I described is similar, it's coincidental, and wouldn't surprise me.

     

    The problem with cross-references, at least in my mind, is you can't reference an image frame. You need some sort of text anchor, but that might be doable and after looking at your sample it might be preferable. The big issue I see is that it looks to me like you are sometimes putting one map across both sides of a spread (and using a single number) and sometimes using two maps and two numbers.

     

    The more I think about it, though, the more I think cross references would work well in that scenario by linking to the map number assigned in the frame at the top of each map, but it would still be largely a manual operation to get set up. What would work though would be that changing a map number later would carry through automatically.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 16, 2011 1:02 PM   in reply to arenol

    Agnar:

     

    Is there a reason that you have this set up as two facing-pages instead of a single page? It would seem that as a single page you would solve all your page number problems, and then you can handle imposition where it belongs -- after InDesign exports the PDF (Talk to your printer about their imposition software).

     

    In any case, yes, you can automatically number all pages on all spreads without having to manually thread.

    You place an empty text frame on the master page, and then on the first page of your document, do not override the frame, hit File Place, hold down shift, and place the text file containing a line with "1", "2", "3", "4", etc. They will be autothreaded. (You will see the special parenthesized () autoflow indicator).

     

    Alternatively, you could thread the 4 number frames on the master page together and place a file with "1", "1", "1", "1", "2", "2", "2", "2", etc.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 3:02 AM   in reply to arenol

    Are the maps ALWAYS contiguous across a spread? It would be relatively easy to set up as single pages that are full spread width, then place those pages as either PDF or .indd pages (more compact) across a two-page spread in a new file.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 5:17 AM   in reply to arenol

    No support yet for formulas in ID, I'm afraid.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 5:52 AM   in reply to arenol

    You are probably referring to the method described here on IndesignSecretes:

     

    I have explored this method, it did not make it very easy to autonumber two (or even four) equal numbers on the same spread.  It's was awful lot of frames to thread together.

    If you are threading frames together you are not following Anne-Marie's instructions correctly!. Try reading the post again -- when you place the file of empty lines, the frames are all threaded together on every page automatically!! This is absolutely key, to her method and to mine.

     

    It is common practice for these kind of products.  It is easier for the user to look up a page (spread), and the key map becomes less cluttered.

    Who is the user here -- the InDesign user? I'm not quite sure I understand.

    I would think it would be easier if the InDesign page numbers were the spread numbers, i.e. if there was 1 page per spread, not 2 pages per spread. You don't have to convince me, of course, but I wonder if you've tried it?

    I don't understand what you mean by "the key map."

     

    Another solution would be if I could enter a formula such as <pagenumber>/2.

    While Peter is correct that you cannot do this automatically out-of-the-box, you could certainly use a script to iterate over all the pages and place the result of such a formula in all designated text frames. It would be about 4 lines of code (trivial). The only downside is you have to remember to run it when page numbers change (insertions/deletions). Let me know if you need help with this, but I think the other 3 solutions we have proposed are strictly better, so I'm not going to bother unless asked.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 6:32 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    John, in a book like this the concept of the key map is you have a spread up front that holds a map of what's covered in all the following pages, and superimposed on it is a grid representing the spreads for the large-scale maps. Ever use a Road Atlas?

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 6:38 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    You know, Peter, at first I thought you were being mildly sarcastic when you said "Ever use a Road Atlas?", but then I realize, there really are people who haven't. Scary!

     

    Sure, I'm quite familiar with a key map in that context. But I don't see how the choice to lay out the document as single 17"x11" pages or spread sof two facing 8.5"x11" has anything to do with that sort of key map. So... -> confused!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 6:38 AM   in reply to arenol

    To get back to the question of whether I was referrring to Ann Marie's technique, the answer would be no, and my original answer was probably flawed becasue I was not thinking in terms of numbeing the spreads, but the little pointers to the adjoining maps. And now that I've tough about that some more, it probably won't work for that either.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 7:00 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    It's really about the binding, I think. You want the key map to reflect the internal spreads, so there should be one "Map Number" per spread, but if you have your page set up as full width so it has only a single number on both halves it's basically impossible to impose. Using facing pages allows you to print and fold signatures and then bind a book that's half the size of an internal map (but I suspect you already understand this). That's why I suggested placing one file into another -- sort of best of both worlds.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 7:08 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    OK, I'm still feeling dumb. Please feel free to point out the obvious.

     

    If you have your page set up as full width so it has only a single number on both halves it's basically impossible to impose.

    Umm...why?

     

    As you know, I'm not a printer so my experience with imposition software is limited, but if your [poor man's imposition] in InDesign can impose one 11x17 page on two 8.5x11 pages, I'd expect that to be child's play for real imposition software.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 7:37 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    OK, I'll go slow and use small words.

     

    First, my workaround does NOT impose anything. It converts a nonfacing document into a facing pages document with pages of half the width, and this is a small, but important, distinction.

     

    Page impostion software is, as you would expect, based on shuffling pages around so that after assembly the bound book is presented to the reader in the correct order. For an eight-page book, as a simple example, printed on two sheets of paper, the first sheet will have page 8 on the left, page 1 on the right on one side, and page 2 on the left and page 7 on the right on the other. Next sheet will be 6 & 3, and 4 & 5. The only imposed spread that has both halves of the same layout spread from your work in ID is that inside center spread.

     

    If each map spread is a single page, how would you put only half of it in one place, and the other half somewhere else? I won't say this can't be done (and I would have to say that if anyone could program that, it would be you, seriously), but I don't know of an imposition program that's built to do it. By placing the wide page into the facing pages document you are essentially treating every map as a single crossover image, and as the pages shuffle the impostion software will clip off the half it doesn't need for each page, just as it does for other art that extends beyond the bleed.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 7:56 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    If each map spread is a single page, how would you put only half of it in one place, and the other half somewhere else? I won't say this can't be done (and I would have to say that if anyone could program that, it would be you, seriously), but I don't know of an imposition program that's built to do it.

    I am out of my depth, but:

     

    I thought this was a basic essential function of imposition software.

    It doesn't just shuffle pages like the InDesign Make Booklet feature -- it comes with bazillions of checkboxes and jeejaws for doing all this kind of stuff.

     

    I envision one operation to Split each page down the middle into two pages, going from your hypothetical 16-page 17"x11" document to a 32-page  8.5"x11" document (a sort of N-uping where N is 1/2 rather than 2). Then another operation to Booklet Shuffle the pages, etc., etc.

     

    It looks to me, for instance, like this is well within the capabilities of Quite Imposing, which isn't even high-end expensive imposition software (see http://www.quite.com/imposing/features.htm; though it does look like one might have to use their Step and Repeat function which could be awkward in practice, I guess?).

     


    Well, anyhow, that's why I said "talk to your printer." It doesn't really matter what my idea of imposition software is like, or if I'm right or wrong, what matters is what Agnar's printer can deal with.

     

    I still think I'm missing what this has to do with the key map, though. Isn't it just a double-page spread like all the others? [Well, maybe it's a gatefold, maybe it's a single page side of a double-page spread, but why would that matter?]

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 8:13 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    I'm not familar with Quite imposing, other than its availabliity and reputation, but looking over the features, IF it can do it, I think it would need to do it by cropping the pages and using each page twice, cropped in opposite directions. Perhaps it can be done, but I've never met a printer who would accept what is essentially a reader spread doc to be imposed and printed without charging an arm and both legs, if they would take it at all, to do the manual labor of dividing all the pages in half (and I'll bet you a cup of coffee next time you come down to the Cape that they'd place the file into a new facing pages doc before they played games in the impostion software).

     

    The thing with the key map isn't about page size, it's about having a single number assigned to each grid unit map, and each of those maps is a two page spread (at least after binding). My little workaround is just a low-tech way to have ID assign only one number to each of those maps while still using page markers during the design phase. Essentially I'm doing pre-prepress by dropping it into a new file so the printer doesn't have to break a sweat.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 1:04 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    I feel very very naive.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 1:09 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Here's a homework assignment for you: Call your printer and ask him what he would do if you sent him double width pages in readers spreads for the newspaper.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 1:21 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Actually, we do that! Sometimes when we have content that runs across the center of a spread (like a photo), we will export the the two 11x17 pages with Spreads checked yielding one 22x17" page, because of fear of what might happen if we export the two pages when there's content across the center.

    Our 2am prepress guy never blinks. Though when we pressed him on it, he seemed to think it didn't matter and we could just send him the pages and they would line up perfectly.

     

    Now, you're going to say that's all fine and good for a double-page spread that's going to be imposed together anyhow, like pp.8-9 of a 16 page document, and the real challenge is if we did that for pp.6-7. And I would say you were right :-) .

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 1:21 PM   in reply to arenol

    Hey Agnar,

     

    I think I've got simple solution for you.

    Make two text boxes on your master pages,

    one on left page and one on right page,

    and put a section marker in them.

    Go to your pages, and start a new section

    and fill in section marker.

    It requires a little bit of hand work,

    but it's better than dealing with threaded

    text frames and other stuff.

     

    Hope that helps.

     

    --

    Marijan (tomaxxi)

    http://tomaxxi.com

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 1:38 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    John Hawkinson wrote:

    Now, you're going to say that's all fine and good for a double-page spread that's going to be imposed together anyhow, like pp.8-9 of a 16 page document, and the real challenge is if we did that for pp.6-7. And I would say you were right :-) .

    That's exactly what I would say.

     

    In a nutshell, you've defined the problem.

     

    @ Marijan,

     

    I like the section marker, but it seems like more work to me from a pragmatic standpoint than just working non-facing to start and placing into a second file. I bet you (scripter par excellence that you are) could modify Scott Zanelli's multipage importer to take a new file, add pages in pairs, and place the pages on every-other page so they appear across the whole spread and only once.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Nov 17, 2011 1:40 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    So, I still don't get what's wrong with the threaded text frames?

    Don't they "just work"? Again, no manual threading involved.

    A-M's method is better than mine, I think, but they are nearly

    equivalent when you get down to it.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 17, 2011 1:50 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    As far as I'm concerned there's nothing paricularly wrong with the threaded frames, but you need to creat the number list to place, and you'd have some issues if you want to rearrange the page order. Page number markers are automatic, and self-adjusting.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 1, 2011 4:19 AM   in reply to arenol

    Agnar,

     

    This is, indeed, the feature request forum, but it isn't a direct line to file a request (you can do that at Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form) but rather a user forum, like the others, where we discuss the merits of a feature request, and often offer workarounds or solutions to a problem being addressed by the request.

     

    Cheers.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Dec 1, 2011 12:34 PM   in reply to arenol

    In addition to what Peter said, I think it's worth setting expectations for users in this forum. Bluntly, your feature request is years away, if it is viable at all, because of the way the InDesign software development process works. Most users don't realize that. So we try to give you guys a way to solve your problem that might actually work...

     
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