Adobe Community: color management???

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1. twenty_one,

Dec 2, 2011 4:31 PM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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You're messing this up big time. It's actually quite simple.

1. Document should be in a standard color space such as sRGB or Adobe RGB.

2. The monitor profile (dell spyder etc) is not a document profile. It is a device profile for your monitor only. When sending the image to the monitor, Photoshop converts from the document profile to the monitor profile. No user intervention required, this all happens automatically.

3. "Color Management Off" does not actually turn color management off. What it does is to make an unholy mess of everything. Instead of a lengthy explanation I'll just say don't use it. Ever. Use "Preserve Embedded Profiles".

4. Just as the monitor has its device profile, so does the printer. And it works the same way, except you have to manually pick the profile according to paper type. You do this in the Photoshop print dialog. The profiles are supplied by the printer manufacturer and get installed with the printer driver.

Most printers in addition have their own internal color management, which you need to turn off so that you don't get double profiling. Choose Photoshop Manages Color and then open the printer driver and turn off color management there. But you still need to have the correct paper selected so that the printer knows how much ink to use.

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People will tell you that color management is complicated and difficult, but it really isn't. You just have to be clear on what the source is, and what the destination is. In this case the source is a file on your computer, with its embedded profile, and there are two destinations: One is your monitor, and that's what the monitor profile is for. The other is the printer, and you pick the profile depending on what paper you're printing on.

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2. Tai Lao,

Dec 2, 2011 4:43 PM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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Whoa! That so messed up dyan, that it's hard to know where to begin.

You really need to learn about color management from the ground up. Here's a good place to start:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html

In a nutshell:

1.— It all starts with an accurately calibrated and profiled monitor (high quality). You appear to have that, good. Now set the resulting calibrated profile as your Monitor Profile and NOWHERE ELSE! You cannot set your monitor profile as your Working Profile. Your resulting calibrated profile is a device dependent profile.

2.— Your working space MUST be a device-independent color profile , such as Adobe RGB, sRGB, ProPhoto RGB, etc, never a device dependent color profile such as your monitor profile or paper profile.

3.— Always honor the image file's embedded profile. If you need to change that profile, use "Convert to Profile". Do NOT use "Assign Profile" for that purpose. Use "Assign Profile", only when some moron has handed you an untagged image file (untagged image file means a file without an embedded profile). You'll have to guess what color space the image was created in by seeing which color profile looks best. Once you do that, you can go and hit the moron who gave you the untagged file upside the head. (Personally I'd use a baseball bat.)

4.— As print profile select the device-dependent profile for the specific combination of paper, ink and printer you are using.

That's just a rough outline to begin learning. For more info see the extensive information in the link

http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html

There are way too many things wrong in your workflow.

____________

Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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3. dyan dahlberg,

Dec 3, 2011 9:14 AM in reply to Tai Lao

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i very much appreciate your answer. I did go to the link and attempt to

understand all the aspects. However, i am still confused as to which RGB

profiles to use.

under document i now have sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (in print menu) and no color

management

In color settings i have color management off and RGB as Adobe RGB 1998

in assign profile i have checked the profile button and selected sRCB

IE61922-2.1

in convert profile i have sRGB profile

my prints are still not satisfactory, so where have i gone wrong?

also in all of these menus, there are several RGB options to use

-Adobe RGB

-SRGB IEC61966-2.1

-sRGB profile

so i am confused as to which one to use.

am i supposed to use the same one for all three menus?

thanks, dyan

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4. twenty_one,

Dec 3, 2011 11:02 AM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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Your questions are mostly red herrings while at the same time you miss the important points (why bring Convert to Profile and Assign Profile into it?)

Again: Don't set color management policies to "off". Half of your problems come from that. Go back to Photoshop Color Settings and change it to "Preserve Embedded Profiles".

Most of the other half is your use of the monitor profile in places where it has no business being, but I assume Tai Lao set that straight.

The rest is your belief that you have to "use" one document profile or the other. One profile doesn't make color management. It takes two; a source profile and a destination profile.The document profile is what it is, just leave it (as long as it's one of the standard spaces as per above), instead think about where the file is going.

If you have an Adobe RGB file that is going to the printer, pick a destination profile (printer/paper) in the print dialog. The file itself, the source profile, is still Adobe RGB.

If you didn't get anything out of G Ballard's site, try this one instead (it's written in a more fluid language):

http://www.adobepress.com/articles/article.asp?p=1315593

Here's just an example of where things go horribly wrong:

under document i now have sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (...) In color settings i have color management off and RGB as Adobe RGB 1998

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5. Tai Lao,

Dec 3, 2011 7:51 PM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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dyan,

You really need to re-read posts 1, 2 and 4 of this thread carefully.

You are not paying attention to any of the very sound advice given to you. That's all you need to do, pay attention. You are messing up big time.

____________

Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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6. Jeff Schewe,

Dec 3, 2011 8:29 PM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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dyan dahlberg wrote:

However, i am still confused as to which RGB profiles to use.

You are indeed confused...you are all over the map. In a nutshell, here's what you do;

Decide what color space you want to use in Photoshop and stick with it. If you want to use sRGB (which considering how screwed up your current workflow is might be a good idea). You set Photoshop to use sRGB as the RGB color space. Do not turn off Color Management in the PS settings. As ABA said, always preserve embedded profiles. You don't want to be using any sort of converting while in Photoshop, just let PS use the embedded profiles. You display profile is ONLY to be used by Photoshop to display your images. You don't want to convert to your display profile. In Photoshop's Print module, you want to use Managed by Photoshop and select the correct ICC printer/paper profile for your printer and paper. Then select the rendering intent.

You are seriously making this whole thing vastly more complicated than it needs be. Go back to G Ballard's site and keep studing...when you understand everything come back if you still need help.

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7. Tai Lao,

Dec 3, 2011 10:09 PM in reply to Jeff Schewe

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That's some excellent, pithy guidance from Guru Schewe which dyan should take to heart.

____________

Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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8. Tai Lao,

Dec 3, 2011 10:12 PM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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dyan,

Note how everyone here is consistently giving you the same advice. Just follow it, there's no room for confusion, really.

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Wo Tai Lao Le

我太老了

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9. Rick McCleary,

Dec 4, 2011 9:10 AM in reply to dyan dahlberg

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dyan dahlberg wrote:

Can anyone make sense of this for me?

I'll try to add to what Jeff, aba, and Tai have offered:

Color management is the very elegant system that allows image files, displays, and output devices to communicate color accurately between each other. In the basic working set-up, you work on a picture ("image file") by seeing it on your monitor ("display"), making adjustments to it in Photoshop, and printing it to a printer ("output device"). It's a real-time translation machine that allows color to flow unchanged from one device to another.

So, a few thoughts you should internailze:

FIRST:

Color management is essential to the viewing/printing/rendering of accurate color. It's not a choice anymore than breathing oxygen is a choice if you're interested in sustaining life. So, NEVER turn off color management. In Edit > Color Settings, choose the North American General Purpose preset. It's a good starting point.

SECOND,

Your monitor profile (in your case, Dell 1901fp-spyder) is used ONLY to allow your monitor to display color accurately. The ONLY time you will interact with it is when you choose it in System Preferences > Displays > Color. Once you choose it in System Preferences, you'll never have reason to think about it again. Never use it in any other way. Set it and forget it.

THIRD,

Your image files will be edited in a "working space" within Photoshop. If you choose the North American General Purpose preset as recommended, that working space will be sRGB. Again, set it and forget it.

FOURTH:

When you print, every print driver (Epson, Canon, HP, whatever) allows you to choose an output profile that corresponds to the printer/paper/ink combination you're using. Usually, the profile is named for the paper and printer, e.g. Epson7900_UltrasmoothFineArt_MK, or something like that. Choose the appropriate one as the output profile and hit print.

Do this a few times so you become a believer in the fact that this all works. Then, do a little more research on some of the nuances of using color management (like rendering intents, alternative working spaces, soft proofing, etc.) You'll love photography again.

Good luck!

Rick McCleary

author, CMYK 2.0: A Collaborative Workflow for Photographers, Designers, and Printers

A Peachpit Press book

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10. bmurds,

Dec 5, 2011 8:25 PM in reply to Rick McCleary

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Works like a charm.

Thank you for your most concise description of the setup.

Barrie Murdock

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color management???

Dec 2, 2011 1:14 PM

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