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16 channel audio mixing

Jun 2, 2011 6:08 AM

Hi

 

I'm building a unique multi channel audio mix for a synchronised projected video installation.

 

The most sensible way for me to mix my audio is in a 16 channel audio sequence.

 

But I cant see how to save off any form of the final edit.

 

The only save options I see are stereo , mono and 5.1 .

 

Anything in channels over these options are just ignored.

So a stereo export will ignore all channels from 3 to 16.

And 5.1 will not export any audio channels above 6 etc

And mono will not let me sellect which audio channel is chosen and there is no 16 channel save.

 

Is it possible to save off each channel as a mono file?

 

I am confused as to why you would offer this option if it cannot be exported even as 16 mono channels.

 

thanks rem

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2011 7:44 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Why do you need all 16 discrete Audio channels in Export?

     

    How are you planning on playing 16 discrete Audio channels?

     

    Exactly how do you need to deliver the Exported material?

     

    Good luck, and please let us know a bit more.

     

    Hunt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 2, 2011 2:25 PM   in reply to remainz123

    I dont fully understand what you are doing but I do suggest that it sounds like a task

    for a multitrack session in Audition.

     

    Seems that you need to mix audio in one session so you can hear a combined effect with the images ..then you want to break out parts of the mix to 5 Stereo tracks to play from independent devices in synch.

     

    You could do this in Audition then simply "bounce" whatever selected tracks you wanted ... down to  the stereo tracks.

     

    Similarly in Premiere...you could do it as submixes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 3, 2011 9:24 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Maybe send each to Audition .. then compile them there .. send them all back to PP?

     

    We have a studio with 16 tracks yet to test it with Audition .. I can understand what your trying .. but don't have the time to experiment .. having other issues.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 3, 2011 12:25 PM   in reply to remainz123
    As I have said Im making a custom installation so I dont expect for it to be understood here as Im just want to know one simple thing.

     

     

    Well its very difficult for anyone to supply a simple answer to something that you dont expect us to even understand.

     

    To me a 16 channel mix means mixing down from 16 channels to a single audio file .

     

    You appear to need a single  audio file with 16 discrete channels.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 4, 2011 6:31 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Gonna try to break this down so that anyone could understand.

     

    You have 5 different video programs, apparently with no audio, that are going to appear on 5 different screens. Is that correct?

     

    OR... did you create one video program that has 5 pictures in it... like picture in picture x 5?

     

    You want 5 different stereo audio programs that you are going to somehow synchronize while these videos are playing... does that mean that you are going to be raising and lowering different audio programs to highlight different videos programs?

     

    OR... is it all going to play at once?

     

    You're either a genius or clueless as to how things work. Why don't you draw for us a picture so that we can better visualize what you're trying to do?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 4, 2011 2:55 PM   in reply to remainz123

    I found no way to get the 16 channel mix out of PP as discreet channels.  To mix down into 5.1, stereo or mono, you need to assign the channels properly in the Mixer window.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 4, 2011 3:20 PM   in reply to remainz123

    Just asking...

     

    Have you read page 206 of the Premiere manual?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 4, 2011 3:46 PM   in reply to remainz123

    Why not export each channel as an AIFF and recombine into the QuickTime movie?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 4, 2011 7:33 PM   in reply to remainz123

    There is no export option in any professional video editing application to

    do what you are trying to do.

     
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  • Jon-M-Spear
    970 posts
    Jan 27, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 12:29 AM   in reply to Stan Arthur

    There isn't a way.

     

    Dare I suggest that you may be tackling this back-to-front.

     

    I have produced similar installations where the key is to assemble, in this case 5, standalone video sequences, each with its own disparate audio channels.  We then use a programming system, such as the Dataton Watchout system to combine and sequence the material in the desired way.  Part of that programming process can include routing/ rerouting of the audio channels.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 5:16 AM   in reply to remainz123

    You don't have a 16 channel mixer. You have as many stereo or mono tracks as you need to create your video production. Those are mixed down to a stereo, mono or surround soundtrack during export. Why do you have the ability to create multiple video tracks? Obviously, so that you can mix different clips, titles, images and effects... but once you make a DVD (or whatever) from it, you do not maintain the ability to re-edit that DVD.

     

    Personally, I need to mix music with narration and sound effects, but I don't get the ability to remix these elements after I've output the program.Think of it this way: DVD players don't come with 16-channel audio mixers.You want the ability to maintain all your discrete tracks, but it does not exist in professional video editing or even audio recording (Pro Tools, Audition, etc.) applications.

     

    Now... that said... there is no reason why PPro could not be used in a live situation, just as it is in your edit suite, with audio track automation. The only limitation is that you are still limited to a stereo, mono or surround master output, depending on the house sound system. You could conceivably operate your PPro audio mixer manually, though it might not respond instantly like a real mixing surface would. There might be some latency there. And if you do something like this, I'd suggest multiple rehearsals in the live venue to be sure it's going to work without hiccups and crashes.

     

    You don't have multiple, audio outputs for the same reason that you don't have multiple screen outputs. As I recall, you have something like five different video clips playing, right (picture-in-picture)? But you mixed all of those onto ONE screen, didn't you? Same thing with audio.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 6:43 AM   in reply to remainz123

    If I reassign the channels of the 16 channel Master in the mixer window, they do indeed show up 'mixed' into the output.  If it is not doing so on your system, something is wrong.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 6:50 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Does this help?

     

    Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 * Pan or balance a 16-channel track

     

    It's the same for CS5 and 5.5, but the topic doesn't get it's own page in the CS5.x help files.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Jon-M-Spear
    970 posts
    Jan 27, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 6:53 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Unless I'm completely missing your issue here, it sounds as if you're wanting a 16-channel (or whatever) playback/replay system.

     

    You have to accept  that final audio output/mastering is governed largely by popular usage and formats.  In the world in which audio/video is replayed using consumer devices, these formats are principally mono, stereo 5.1, 7.1 etc, etc.

     

    There are multitrack DAWs which, to answer your question, is why multi channel audio mixers exist.  But even when DAWs perform their mixdown to master, they have to conform to the laws of audio formatting ie, mono, stereo. 5.1, 7.1 etc ,etc.  There is not an off-the-shelf piece of kit which allows you to break out  - and more importantly, replay - tracks in a random manner/format/combination.

     

    I used to have 24-track, 2-inch tape recorder but, even though I could monitor each track independently, I had to mixdown the master into a recognisable format - in those days, mono or stereo.  .

     
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  • Jon-M-Spear
    970 posts
    Jan 27, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 7:01 AM   in reply to remainz123

    No they don't - for the reasons I've just given.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 7:41 AM   in reply to remainz123

    From the help files:

     

     

    You can specify the channel in a target hardware audio device for each channel in a sequence Master track. You map channels in the Audio Output Mapping pane of the Preferences dialog box. Premiere Pro plays each sequence channel through the hardware channel you specify. For example, your project could have a 5.1-channel sequence, but your system hardware might support only two channels. You could specify which of the two hardware channels carries each of the six sequence channels.

    16-channel sequences, however, remain mapped to 16 output channels if the selected hardware device has fewer than 16 channels. For example, the selected device could have only two channels. You could then map only the first two channels of a 16-channel sequence to the two hardware channels.

    <emphasis added>

     

    If you'd like this behavior to change, go here:

     

    Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

     

    -Jeff

     

    EDIT: More info on how to map output channels:

     

    Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 & CS5.5 * Mapping source and output audio channels

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 8:07 AM   in reply to remainz123
    What is the point of a 16 channel master if it doesnt give you any option to save or mixdown these higher channels whatsoever?

    If I understand it correctly, it's for output via a 16-channel board.  All channels, including the higher channels, are saved in your Pr project file.  There is no audio format or codec of which I'm aware that supports 16 channels in a single file.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 6, 2011 12:26 PM   in reply to remainz123

    I see nowhere that channels can be assigned on export

     

    No. not during export. In the Mixer window, as you have circled in your screen grab.  If you assign them there to any of the channels that get exported, they show up.

     

    I'm afraid that's the best you will get out of PP.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 29, 2011 10:55 PM   in reply to remainz123

    Hi!

    Did you find the solution?

    I also need export with 16-channels sound.

    I'm using Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse. It allows to output videofiles with 16-channel sound. Blackmagic Media Desktop utility is able to capture and playback AVI and WAV files with 16-channel sound but I'm unable to find Windows7 software to prerare such files for output.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 31, 2011 4:02 AM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    Jeff Bellune wrote:

     

    What is the point of a 16 channel master if it doesnt give you any option to save or mixdown these higher channels whatsoever?

    If I understand it correctly, it's for output via a 16-channel board.  All channels, including the higher channels, are saved in your Pr project file.  There is no audio format or codec of which I'm aware that supports 16 channels in a single file.

     

    -Jeff

    Exactly so.

     

    The point of the 16-channel master is to output - individually - 16 channels to an external mixing console via suitable hardware in your system.

    To make this work, you will need 16 outputs on your Audio Card, routed to 16 channels of mixing desk (this could be analogue or digital, but be aware with Digital you will likely need either 2 ADAT outs (giving you a total of up to 16 channels) or else 16 Analogue outputs, or else a MADI system.

    Whilst it is theoretically possible to render this type of multichannel output to MLP Lossless or Dolby True HD this will result in a file that is nigh on unplayable as there is no hardware outside of dedicated and expensive post production or studio hardware to play it back.

    B-WAV-EXTENSIBLE can handle massive channel counts as an interleaved file - but to export this type of interleaved file you will at the very least need a 16-channel sound card.

    See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006#E6C for details on this, but again - no consumer hardware exists that supports this as yet.

     

    What you cannot do is render out a 16-channel interleaved file. The point is to allow 16 individual outputs to an external console.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 1, 2012 10:54 AM   in reply to Neil Wilkes

    Hi!

    As I stated before I'm using Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse. (http://www.blackmagic-design.com) It's 16-channel audio + SD-HD video interface. Decklink Media Desktop used for capture and playback works with AVI, MOV and WAV files. But all channels of audio MUST BE IN SINGLE FILE. One can open and use multichannel A/V files captured with Decklink Media Desktop in Premiere. Premiere correctly recognizes all audio channels from such files.

    If you have 16-channel master in timeline you can edit all channels separately, but you can't SAVE or EXPORT the result!

     

    I think descussion here WAS NOT about use of 16-channel files, but about BUG when you can do only half of job!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 29, 2012 10:01 AM   in reply to remainz123

    I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I was just trying to do the same thing.  The only way I found was combining them in Quicktime Pro.  Export each stereo pair as stereo files (or all as mono).  Then export the video in the format/compression you want with no audio.  Open the video and all audio files in QT Pro.  Go to the first audio file and select all, copy.  Go to video, make sure playhead is at beginning and select Edit/Add to Movie.  Repeat for each audio track in order making sure to bring the playhead back to the beginning.  Then save the file and it should be good to go.  Pain in the butt workaround, though.

     

    But yes, this is a total miss on Adobe's part.  Capture files come in with multiple tracks, and plenty of people need live mixing capability.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 30, 2012 10:29 PM   in reply to matthew.drury

    There should be a Dynamic Link to Audition .. like the rest of the Suite.

     

    Please don't post "Send Adobe Feature Request" comments / posts to this, 'Moderators'. .. it is past the point of enlightening engineers how to do their job.

     

    Forum .. I'm back and I have a whole slew of comments to make .. especially about features / bugs that have yet to be addressed ONE YEAR LATER!!!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2012 5:00 AM   in reply to Pharther Phurther

    Forum .. I'm back and I have a whole slew of comments to make .. especially about features / bugs that have yet to be addressed ONE YEAR LATER!!!

    As long as those comments remain civil, on-topic and PG-rated, then slew away.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2012 12:52 PM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    Jeff .. Please refresh my faded memory:

     

    Do you use a Mac running Snow Leopard / Lion with the Adobe Master Suite or Premiere Pro installed?

     

    Do you use multi-track audio and video?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2012 12:59 PM   in reply to Pharther Phurther

    Nope. PC only. Sorry.

     

    -Jeff

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 31, 2012 1:23 PM   in reply to Jeff Bellune

    We use Logic Pro 9 with 16 Channels Import and Export via Prosonus V-Fire Firewire / Roland R-Bus to a Roland VM-7100.

     

    Problem is nobody updated the V-Fire interface to anything newer than Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11

     

    If someone authored a driver for Lion then ther may be a solution .. since these VM units are of excellent sound quality.

     

    I havent got to import . export betweeen Audition and Logic yet.

     

    Also there is a video componenet in Logic I didnt use.

     

    This may not be helpful .. but it is where our studio is at.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 10:56 AM   in reply to remainz123

    Does anyone know if feature of 16-channel audio export was included in version CS6? Thanks to all!

     
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