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talgut
Currently Being Moderated

Outline view in InDesign is missing

Jul 7, 2009 3:24 AM

Hi

 

I wanted to post a feature is missing in InDesign CS3, View Outlines that we have in Illustrator is missing in InDesign.

I was shocked to see it is not exicst, what Adobe has the say about that?

It's a must feature !!!

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2009 3:36 AM   in reply to talgut

    InDesign is not Illustrator...

     

    Harbs

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2009 5:11 AM   in reply to talgut

    Are you saying you are drawing native vector objects and you want a view outlines feature for those, or that you want to have an outline view of placed objects?

     

    Exactly how would this help you?

     

    Peter

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2009 6:07 AM   in reply to talgut

    Why would you need this? You can't edit the placed object directly in ID, so I fail to see how viewing it in outline would be of benefit. You know you can reduce the quality of the screen preview to speed up drawing, right?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2009 6:27 AM   in reply to talgut

    You should be careful who you insult.

     

    I asked what use this would be to you, since you hadn't explained it. I don't draw a lot of free-form frames, so it wouldn't be much use to me, but I'm still not sure what you are looking for that the View > Show Edges (Ctrl [Cmd] + H) wouldn't be doing. Maybe I don't understand yet what you mean -- you want to see your placed Illustrator art in outlines inside ID? I can't see any added benefit to this since filled shapes are as easily sized and moved. Most people complain when the preview is less than a completely accurate rendition.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2009 7:06 AM   in reply to talgut

    I understand what you get in Illustrator -- I use that view regularly to make selecting easier.  What I don't understand is how having this view of Illustrator art inside InDesign would be useful. If I don't understand what it is you want, it's pretty likely that other people don't understand it either. In order to get a new feature you need to be able to explain clearly how it is used and what benefit it has for users in general.

     

    Peter

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 23, 2009 7:26 AM   in reply to talgut

    I wounldn't mind seeing this feature in InDesign. We do a lot of line-art illustrations. One of the nice features of ID CS4 is that I can "copy" and "paste" a line art illustration from Illustrator directly into ID. I don't have to keep or link to the Illustrator file. When I paste the line art into ID, it comes in as a group. I can ungroup and edit the line art. If my line weight in the illustration is set to say 0.5pt and I need to edit the line art, I go to 'outline' view in Illustrator, I can see exactly where my lines intersect or terminate, etc. If I need to edit that graphic (now vector lines in ID) I would like to see the path outlines.

     

    This would be very helpful so I don't have to keep two files, and also so I can edit all in one application.

     

    RPP

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2009 3:09 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Hi,

     

    I'm another user who would like to request the "View Outline" feature in Indesign. I'm explaining a scenerio, maybe you could explain an alternative method to solve my problem.

     

    I have a bigger text frame and I have JPEG images "Text wrapped" with that frame. Now I have to bring the images down to the Text frame because the image background is opaque.

     

    Now if I wish to select the images, I would need to view the artwork in outline mode. It could be solved if Indesign had an Illustrator-like LOCK object command. so I temporarily lock the text frame and select the images.

     

    Hopefully you could give some idea to solve my problem.

     

    Regards,

    Naveed

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 24, 2009 1:23 PM   in reply to CEOScientists

    Naveed,

     

    It sounds to me as if you should be able to do waht you want by using the direct select tool to select the image, rather than the frame, but I may be misunderstanding.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 3, 2009 8:48 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Peter,

     

    Thanks for the reply. You are right, but I don't think that direct selection tool will let me select any object beneath.

     

    I'm attaching a small jpeg for reference.In this scenerio, all I have to do is to "send to back" the textbox and then select the image.

     

    btw, Would adding the support for "Outline View" might decrease the Indesign performance or make the computer slow?

     

    Regards,

    Naveed

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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 3, 2009 11:36 AM   in reply to CEOScientists

    You can use the Ctrl (Cmd) key and click down through a stack of overlapping objects, or use the Object > Select submenu (or one of the listed keyboard shortcuts) to to navigate through the stack. Once the correct object is selected, use Object > Select > Content or the button on the Control Panel (the content/container and next/previous object in a group buttons look like a family tree or organization chart) to select the image.

     

    I have no idea what would be involved in creating an outline view susch as you describe, but it's well outside the current capabilities. Given that there are ways to do what you want, and other other features that probably would be more useful generally, I probably wouldn't vote for it if asked, but it's certainly a legitimate thing to request. You do that officially at Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 4, 2009 2:41 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Thanks a lot...

     

    My problem is solved with the Ctrl + click multiple times to select overlapping objects. This was the only issue for what I was missing outline view.

     

    thanks again.

     

    Regards,

    Naveed

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2009 12:15 PM   in reply to talgut

    Where can I vote for this feature? ;)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2009 12:19 PM   in reply to marc.thiele

    see post 14

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2011 1:05 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    This feature would be useful for me too.

     

    Right now I need to edit a white text on a white background (on master page)

    and I can not see it to change it.

     

    I need to be adiconando black boxes behind?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Sep 1, 2011 1:45 PM   in reply to | E | L | D | E | S |

    Edit > Edit in Story Editor...


     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 1:45 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Peter, I think you were giving that Talgut guy a bit of a hard time.  He has a very valid point.  I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you're coming across as a bit snooty on this subject.  I've seen other threads on the net discussing the same subject, with similar participants displaying this same attitude towards people who (rightfully) are wondering why ID doesn't have a View Outlines mode.

     

    As a professional with over a decade of using QuarkXpress before switching to ID in 2006, I can guarantee that there are plenty of reasons why ID needs a View Outlines mode. I'm also an AI expert, so I'm very accustomed to being able to switch to View Outlines in order to quickly get everything lined up accurately.  There are many times you don't want to see the content of the box... just the outline of the box itself, and if you're trying to line it up against a complex packaging template for example, where there are tons of bleeds and trims involved, in order to work quickly, you need to be able to switch the app to View Outlines mode, adjust your alignments and then continue on. You need total transparency. It's a total hassle working in ID and never having this option. "Fast Display" doesn't cut it.  Another alternative is to keep pulling more guides hither and yon, and lining up those guides over top of the template, but then you wind up with a rat's nest of guides.  And even then, you're still never going to be able to line things up as accurately as you'd be able to with View Outlines. Working in ID feels very ambiguous compared to working in AI in terms of total accuracy. It's very frustrating.

     

    I certainly hope and pray that Adobe will eventually add this feature to ID.  In CorelDraw it's called "wireframe". 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 4:57 AM   in reply to Ferroid

    Then I guess I'm going to give you the same hard time, though I think I merely pressed him to explain his use case, which I don't believe he ever really did.

     

    I don't recall Quark having a view outlines mode, either, and I would hardly equate Corel Draw with a page layout app. If you want to compare to an Adobe application, the closest would be Illustrator, and that does have outlines mode as you know.

     

    I'm afraid from your description I still don't really see how outlines will help you in ID. Frame borders and bounding boxes don't change regardless of what display mode you use, and I still don't understand how seeing the frame without the content is more useful. This is more than likely a difference of working style, but perhaps you'd care to provide a concrete example, with screen shots, of why outlines would be useful.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 5:30 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Discussing this subject with you already feels like a chess match.  I think you're more interested in jousting with members than improving the program. 

     

    It's very simple... there are a number of users who have noticed that there's no View Outlines mode in this app.  Many of us are very used to working in AI and it's a very quick and handy way to see everything at once and line things up perfectly... I don't want to just see the edges of the bounding boxes.  I want to see right through them... just like... hey... I know.... VIEW OUTLINE MODE.  It's just a handy way to work and it's another option that should be implemented into ID.  No big deal.

     

    Do you have some type of vested interest in keeping this feature out of ID??  What the heck difference could it possibly make to you? Are you paying the programmers?  Sure you may not need this feature... but.... other people do.  We don't all work the same way.  Different strokes for different folks, right?   (get it? Different "strokes")  LOLOL

     

    Sorry no time to prepare samples for ya bud.  Trying to meet another tight production deadline here.  I guess that means you won!   Checkmate!  Let's keep ID dumb.  No point in developing anything just to pander to a few "fringe" users who can't state their case satisfactorily in Steve's court.  

     

    P.S. - The only reason I referred to CorelDraw was simply because of the term they use... "wireframe"....which I thought that was pretty apropo. I'm a 3D animator too, so it reminded me of how we look at objects in 3D. It's a great way to line up our polygons perfectly (the same principle, right?). I would never consider using CorelDraw for anything at all, so please don't make that assumption.  Sorry I brought it up!

     

    P.P.S. - Re: Quark - you're correct... there's no View Outlines mode there either, but wouldn't that just be another reason why we would all want to switch to ID... maybe because ID does have that feature?  Just a thought.  ;-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 5:46 AM   in reply to Ferroid

    I'm not suggeting keeping ID dumb. Outline view is not something athat interests me, nor, apparently, a lot of other users as it doesn't come up here as a request as often as things like fixing footnotes (this is the only thread I think I've ever seen). The REALITY of a feature request is that in order to have it implemented you MUST present to Adobe, not me, a compelling use case to show how this is going to be of benefit to a sufficiently large number of users to to justify expending resources to develop it instead of doing something else. The other eality is it takes a long time for most new features to be added unless they are clearly of benefit to almost everyone. It took at least three or four versions of ID to go by before the  Illustrator-style layers panel was implemented. This is a forum for discussing the merit of a new feature, not a request line (file your request at Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form). You should be prepared to discuss what you propose.

     

    If anyone wuold show me how outline view would help them in ID, I'm eager  to see it. I really don't understand how this would be particularly useful.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 6:14 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Good points.   The way I see it, ID is still in the process of taking over the market share from Quark.  It wasn't all that long ago that many of us were still only toying with the idea of actually sending an ID file to press. It was almost like considering switching to PageMaker!  LOL  Then there was the loyalty factor... it was like, Adobe already has PS and AI... why do they need to corner the layout side of things too?  Shouldn't that remain Quark's domain?  You know, keep things diverse?

     

    But then after the Macromedia takeover, all that became moot.  Adobe owns everything else now, so why should we bother using one separate app just for layout, especially when we know that Adobe apps are going to integrate with each other more seamlessly.

     

    So I guess, in light of that situation, Adobe probably doesn't need to try all that hard any more to offer features in ID that Quark doesn't have in order to lure over more potential users.

     

    That being said, I remember back in the early 00s when I first heard about ID, the touters were telling me, hey it's like a combination of AI and Quark.  You can edit vector shapes, etc.  I thought, hey good idea, so naturally I was quite shocked to find out that you couldn't actually plunk an AI image directly into those early versions of ID.  Glad you fixed that.  It only makes sense.  So why stop there?  Oh, I forgot, you already have your monopoly.  Now you can become complacent. No need to make any more effort to try to woo over the rest of us.

     

    It kind of reminds me of the whole transparency issue. Remember back in '99 when a fat and happy Adobe would have had us believe that transparency was not possible in a vector program.... and then of course Macromedia came out with Fireworks and basically said, well of course you can have transparent vector objects.  Like duh.  Funny how the very next version of AI featured transparency.  ;-)  Isn't it interesting how competition can be so healthy in a marketplace?  Now that Macromedia has wimped out and decided to opt for a permanent, paid beach vacation in the Caribbean (courtesy of Adobe), rather than continue to slog it out in the trenches against you guys, you can now sit back on your laurels and state with unbridled pomp and circumstance, "and pray tell dear peasant, why should you need to view your objects in outline form?  Please explain. Ta ta, no shuffling your feet now.  Guards!  Take him to the gates immediately.  I shall have none of this".  Do I see the Queen of Hearts or Marie Antoinette emerging here? 

     

    We need it because this is the way we work in AI, and now we're switching to ID because it's supposedly better than Quark.  If ID is supposed to be a layout program that is kind of similar to AI, then then it's only logical that it should have a View Outlines mode.  In fact, I'm stunned that it would never occur to anyone to include this from the outset.  It seems completely obvious, and as I have already stated, would be an obvious "reason" why ID is therefore better than Quark.

     

    I fully understand that this is not the forum to discuss or try to initiate these types of changes.  It's just that your original exchange with Talgut really got me going.  As a pro with miles of experience, I had to call you on it.  Sure you can say that you don't hear the request for Outline Mode much on these forums, but that's because you're corresponding with a lot of newer users who simply believe that this is just the way ID works, and who may not be aware of the fact that View Outlines could have, and should have been there all along.  Many of these users may not be AI experts either, so perhaps they're not even aware of the benefits of this feature.

     

    Anyhow, I am far too busy to start pursuing this issue with Adobe, preparing presentations, etc... but I'll be glad to do it if I can send you an invoice for my time!  ;-)  I've stated my case, and I can only hope that some of the other more experienced users like myself, who are still in the process of switching over to ID, will also step forward to help reinforce my position.  I can only hope that common sense will prevail.  It was common sense to allow us to paste AI images into ID too, and you fixed that, so why not fix this?

     

    Just because you personally don't find any necessity to view your file in outline mode while you're working doesn't mean that it's not needed!  If you were a true AI expert you wouldn't even question this!  You'd be like, ya dude, that's one handy mode... I agree that it should be available in ID.  It's all very simple and straightforward.  Don't give these junior guys such a hard time!  ;-)

     
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  • John Hawkinson
    5,572 posts
    Jun 25, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 6:54 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    Ferroid:

    That being said, I remember back in the early 00s when I first heard about ID, the touters were telling me, hey it's like a combination of AI and Quark.  You can edit vector shapes, etc.

    ...

    We need it because this is the way we work in AI, and now we're switching to ID because it's supposedly better than Quark.  If ID is supposed to be a layout program that is kind of similar to AI, then then it's only logical that it should have a View Outlines mode.  In fact, I'm stunned that it would never occur to anyone to include this from the outset.  It seems completely obvious, and as I have already stated, would be an obvious "reason" why ID is therefore better than Quark.

    ID is not a vector drawing problem of the kind that is similar to Adobe Illustrator.

    If you are trying to use InDesign to subsume the functions of Illustrator, you are in for a world of hurt. This a terrible idea.

     

    Like XPress, you should use InDesign hand-in-hand with Illustrator.

    View Outlines is one very small reason, there are hundreds of other problems you will encounter with this proposed workflow.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 14, 2012 7:14 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    I never said I was going to try to create vector drawings in ID.  Why would I want to do that if I can do that in Illustrator?  Please reread my comments. I simply said, "You can edit vector shapes, etc".  That one of the features they were touting when they first released ID, because Quark had no provision to do this whatsoever at the time.  This was one of the original selling points of ID, and one of the reasons why many of us felt it would be more logical to use ID instead.  It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two without having to edit the placed AI file!  It's not about creating an entire vector drawing from scratch, but thanks for your expert opinion John.  I've only been doing this for about 20 years.  Try not to skim so much.  My points are very valid.

     

    Using outline mode has nothing to do with creating vector objects in ID.  It simply has to do with being able to align things quickly and easily by being able to view the outlines of the bounding boxes, along with your template underneath (also in outline form).  You get infinite precision.  That's all I'm talking about here! 

     

    I'm confident you'll see more people show up on this forum who understand what the heck I'm talking about.  You must be a friend of Peter's!  LOL

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 6:55 AM   in reply to Ferroid

    Ferroid,

     

    I get the sense that you think that somehow I work for or speak for Adobe. That is not the case. Everyone here, unless you see an Adobe Employee badge, is just an ordinary user like yourself (though most of the regulars have been using ID quite a bit longer than you have, I'd guess). I've been a particiapnt here for about 10 years (since I switched my procution work from Quark to ID at version 2.0), and a Moderator/Community Professional for around 3. Besides working as a freelance designer I've working in newspaper and magazine advertising and layout, as a prepress technician for traditional and digital printers, and I taught page layout using InDesign at the college level for a time. I've seen quite a lot of different sorts of files, some very clever, and some absolutely horrid, and I've often been tasked with figuring out why they won't print.

     

    I'll caution you a bit about assuming that pasting art from Illustrator is a good workflow (and frankly, I don't recall when that was added becasue it isn't something I find useful, in general). Simple art will come in fine, but once you reach a certain threshhold of complexity you will wind up pasting uneditable PDF, which sort of defeats your intentions. Placing the art and linking back to AI may seem to be a pain, but at least for me it has inevitabley turned out to be a better technique, even if the paths would remain editable in ID if pasted. That's because sooner or later I find I need to re-use the art in a new project, and that usually means at some point I'm going to need to edit it in at least two places. With linked files I can edit the original and all the places I've used that file will update.

     

    I suspect part of the reason I don't see the value to an outlines mode is precisely because I work with placed, not pasted, vector art, along with placed Photos. Very little other than text or filled shapes and an occasional drawn path is directly editable in ID in my layouts -- it's more like a giant pasteboard where I assemble the puzzle pieces. As such, having a bunch of wireframed rectangles represneting the frames where the art was placed doesn't help me at all.  I'm guessing you are treating ID as some sort of super set of AI, and I think that would be as much a mistake as thinking ID is Quark. Many new converts have a period of adjustment where they essentially try to "translate" how they would do something in another application, especially Quark, into ID. I know because it happend to me and almost everyone I know who has made the switch over the years. The trick is to try to stop thinking in terms of what you used to do, and start thinking in terms of how ID does each task. You'll find there are some things that you may not be able to do as easily or even at all (though as I said, when I used Quark I don't recall a wireframe or outlines mode), but the tradeoff is there are many more things that are much easier to accomplish, or even newly possible where they can't be done anywhere else.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 7:17 AM   in reply to Ferroid

    Ferroid wrote:

     

    I never said I was going to try to create vector drawings in ID.  Why would I want to do that if I can do that in Illustrator?  Please reread my comments. I simply said, "You can edit vector shapes, etc".  That one of the features they were touting when they first released ID, because Quark had no provision to do this whatsoever at the time.  ...

    It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two without having to edit the placed AI file!

    You've lost me with this comment. Though not nearly as sophisticated or flexible as ID's, Quark certainly had editable vector shapes as early as version 4. At no point has ID ever had, or claimed to have, the abiltiy to edit a placed AI file directly.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 3:03 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Yikes!  Ok, one thing at a time...

     

    First of all, regarding the comment that I lost you on... that was caused by one simple typo. One word was wrong and it changed the meaning of the entire sentence.  I noticed it after I had made the post, but I thought you'd still get the gist of what I was saying.  I meant to use the word "a" instead of "the".

     

    Therefore the sentence should have read, "...without having to edit a placed AI file".   See how that changes the meaning of the sentence entirely?   Sorry for the error.  I see that your spelling is always perfect.... nary an error to be found LOL.   (Just messin' with ya... I know you're super busy trying to respond to all these ongoing discussions).

     

    That aside, I'm glad to see that you're paying close attention to what I'm saying! 

     

    In regards to using placed files... it's a shame that this discussion has completely gone down that road.  After working with Quark since the early '90s, I'm only accustomed to using placed files, and that's obviously the only sensible way to work. Quark and ID are simply layout/assembly apps, and there's no need to be creating anything in these programs other than (as you say), the occasional rule line or simple filled shape.

     

    But if you read my text even more closely, you'll see that this is exactly what I said.  The first part of my sentence reads, "It just means that for the occasional simple box or polygonal shape, you actually have the option to adjust the position of a node or two..."

     

    I don't see how you therefore get the impression from that comment that I would  be trying to build actual vector artwork in ID.  There is no need for you (or John) to waste a minute of your collective time lecturing me on the downfalls of this type of workflow!  LOL  This is getting absolutely crazy.  You sound like a couple of grannies!  OF COURSE placing artwork is the only way to go!!  This discussion is purely about the pros and cons of VIEW OUTLINES mode, as per the TOPIC of this string.

     

    But that aside, I see that even you are a little confused as to why ID would have allowed users to copy and paste very complex vector artwork directly from AI to ID. That throws a real wrench in the works doesn't it?  If ID was intended to be strictly a layout/assembly app relying on placed files, why would they then allow this possibility?  It's only going to serve to give new users (who never had the benefit of being thoroughly drilled into using placed files as were you, I and John) the idea that, hey, we might as well just create our drawings directly in ID!!   What fun!!!!  Oh boy oh boy! 

     

    Now you and John can really have some folks to lecture!   Good luck with that!!

     

    As for the vector capabilities in Quark 4... that was actually added in response to ID's first release, which included this feature.  Earlier versions of Quark didn't have that capability.   That was part of their effort to fight back!

     

     

    NOW THAT WE'VE GOT ALL THAT OUT OF THE WAY we can get back to the initial discussion. 

     

    Just to clarify, one more time, for the record (John are you listening?), I am not suggesting that we need View Outlines mode so that we can make ID "just like AI".  I'm simply saying that it's a way to quickly see where all your bounding boxes fall relative to your trim marks or template details.  It's like, you're staring at the screen up close, you're trying to adjust positions of a stack of picture boxes relative to your measurements.... you don't want to be looking at boxes full of content or fills while you're doing this, and you don't want to have to contend with stroke widths.... you just want to eliminate all that confusion quickly, line things up accurately, and then switch back to preview mode.  It's just an efficient way of working.  What else can I say?  Plenty of apps have optional ways of doing things, which cater to various users' preferences.  I have assembled hundreds of packaging layouts in AI over the years, and having the option to View Outlines is absolutely indispensible.

     

    With all due respect, I don't believe you've done a lot of AI layouts which are destined for print, otherwise (as I have said), you would totally understand just how valuable, efficient and handy the View Outlines mode is.

     

    Anyhow, it's very simple, and it really doesn't warrant this much discussion.  It's clear that more and more people are wondering why this was never added to ID, ESPECIALLY when you consider that Adobe is perfectly willing to allow us to paste AI vector files directly into ID.  (Maybe you should go over there and give those programmers heck).

     

    As a highly experienced professional designer/layout artist, etc. etc., I contend that View Outlines mode would be a very practical addition to ID, and I would like to remind you that the only reason I even joined this discussion was because I saw you ripping into that poor Talgut guy, who was also simply stating the obvious.  And there are many more besides him, and there will continue to be many more.

     

    Being able to turn off all the fills and strokes instantly, and simply see your pure mechanical structure relative to your template in an instant is super handy, especially when you have stacks of bounding boxes.  Oh sure, you can hold Shift and start clicking through them, or you can make sure every box is on it's own layer so that you can click layers on and off in order to see where everything sits, but why  go through all those steps when you should be able to simply VIEW OUTLINES.  That's my whole point!!

     

    Further, how hard could it be for the Adobe app developers to simply make it so that we don't see the fills, content and strokes.  I can't imagine that would be a huge programming issue, especially when you consider that they've made it so that ID can totally accept pasted AI files!

     

     

    I only brought up these issues of ID being similar to AI in some ways because back in the beginning, at the inception of ID, that was one of the ways it was being touted.  That was one of the angles they were using to woo us all over from Quark.  Don't you or John remember any of that?

     

    Anyhow, I've spent way too much time discussing this already.  You're clearly very set in your ways, and it's because you've never spent years doing print layouts in AI.  We did that often, instead of using Quark, largely because we were able to View Outlines in AI.  Why build your packaging in Quark if you can build it in AI and ensure super precision accuracy?  We only needed Quark for multi-page files.

     

    Dang I sure hope some other old timers stumble across this thread.  I need some backup here!!  This is hard work.  You are one obstinate fella!  LOL

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jan 15, 2012 3:30 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    I think you have your history wrong. I was working doing prepress when ID was released, I'm pretty sure, and Quark 4 was already out. But I'm old enough that my memory after ten years is a little fuzzy.  And who was touting ID as being similar to AI? I certainly don't remember any marketing with that thrust beyond some possibile user interface similarities, i.e, if you knew Illustrator, ID should be easy to learn.

     

    I do know how valuable outline view can be in Illy, even, as you say, it's not an application I spend a lot of time with. But once the hillustration is complete, I don't see how outlines are any longer of benefit in positioning a frame for placed art (you did say we're talking about placed content, right? And I don't get the same difference in meaninig that you ascribe to "a" vs. "the" in your previous statement -- it's still a placed file. Perahps I'm just dense, which is why I'd love to see a screen shot of one of your layouts where you think outlines would help you.

     

    You know that AI now allows for multiple artboards so you can do multiple page layouts directly, right? Sounds to me you might be happier staying in Illy than doing the layouts in ID. What advantage does ID have for you at this point?

     

    You keep referring to wanting to look at your template. I understand the use of templates in AI for tracing and so forth, but it isn't a commonly used paradigm with anyone I know in ID. Would turning layers on or off in the placed file help you at all? I know that's not the same thing, just wondering.

     

    And I still don't think I ripped into anyone. I asked Talgut, just as I've asked you, to provide some concrete usage examples. I'm actually pretty open-minded about this stuff. At the moment I can't see a case, beyond your simply stating that there is one, that would make me think there is enough demand for expenditure of resources to add this feature. Why are you so hesitant to convince me otherwise?

     
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    Jan 15, 2012 3:40 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Maybe I have another suggestion you'd find valuable. Once in a blue moon I get asked to "reproduce" something like a letterhead that no longer exists as a layout file, only a paper print, or as a PDF, but it needs significant rebuilding. In cases like that I often recreate component pieces in Illustrator, then use the PDF or a scan on a background layer as a guide for positioning in ID. To allow myself to see both the newly placed art and the template behind I usually temporarily adjust the opacity of the new art. 100% precision is seldom the goal (or necessarily even possible given the incoinsistencies in scanning and the possibilities of changed content), but it can be faster for rough placement than trying to measure off a print and add guides.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jan 15, 2012 3:53 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    Ferroid:

     

    Just to clarify, one more time, for the record (John are you listening?), I am not suggesting that we need View Outlines mode so that we can make ID "just like AI".

    Yes.

    You should be much less emotional, and much more concrete, and much more succint.

    Thanks.

     
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    Jan 15, 2012 4:00 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    You're right John.  Good points.  My apologies.

     
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    Jan 15, 2012 7:47 PM   in reply to Peter Spier

    I attached a file so you could see what I mean when I talk about a "template".  This is a typical template for CD packaging.  I've made a jpeg just so I could post it on this forum, but it's actually an AI file and it's either placed or pasted on the bottom layer in our ID document.  We then build everything on layers over top of this.

     

    There's no point in me showing you one of these actual packaging layouts with content, because it's not going to make any difference.  Of course everything can be done without using View Outlines mode. I never said it couldn't. 

     

    I'm just saying that using View Outlines is a different way of working, and it really should be an option in ID.   But if you're not used to doing press jobs in AI, (or any kind of complex illustrative work for that matter), you'll never know what I'm talking about.  Once you get used to hitting that Command-Y while you're working in order to quickly see exactly where everything is, without being hindered by all the colors, content, stroke widths, etc., you'll never want to go back, believe me.  Plenty of graphic artists will vouch for this.  If you've never had the benefit of using this tool on a regular basis, you won't truly understand how important it is.

     

    As I mentioned in my last post, prior to ID, we didn't always do every press layout in Quark. Plenty of them were done in AI (and Freehand too of course).... that's the way it was back then... it was kind of a yin yang thing. It was great to be able to View Outlines in order to ensure absolute accuracy and line things up perfectly.

     

    Back in the early 00s, the word going around the industry was that ID was like AI in a lot of ways, and if you're already good at AI, you should be able to transition easily to ID (just to echo what you stated in your second last post).   You may well say that Adobe wasn't actually making these statements... but whoever started it, that was the buzz on the streets.  It was being projected by early converts as the reason why we should all make the switch.  Nobody ever said, "oh you should switch to ID because it's way different than AI and it's really hard to learn".


    And sure enough, here we are in 2012, and vector editing certainly looks very similar in ID doesn't it?... with the exception of the very vital tool View Outlines.  Of course there are plenty of other AI tools that didn't make it over either, for obvious reasons, but View Outlines is different because it's purpose is actually more about being precise and organizing things on your artboard.... which would seem to me to be a major feature to have in any layout program, n'est-ce pas?  I would have thought that it would be obvious to include this feature in ID, which is why (as I have previously stated), I was absolutely stunned to discover that it's not!  (Just as I was equally stunned to discover that we couldn't actually paste an AI drawing in the first versions of ID... but that got fixed didn't it?).

     

    You're wondering why we don't just continue doing these packaging jobs in AI.  The reason is because more and more printers and manufacturers are specifically requesting ID files now, so we have no choice but to get on the bandwagon.

     

    You didn't exactly "rip in" to Talgut... I'm exaggerating a bit of course, but your responses were to imply that as long as he could not give you a good example, then his comment wasn't worthy.  That's not the issue.   Once again, I will repeat myself and say that anything can be constructed without View Outlines.... we all know that.  Using View Outlines is just a way of working which allows you to cut to the chase and line things up accurately, very quickly, and it would be great to see this implemented into ID. 

     

    Anyhow, that's about all I can say on this subject (I do feel as if we're going around in circles here).  I just wish there was another AI expert on this thread who could step in and take over for me.  I'm exhausted from composing these posts.  I really don't have any more time to discuss it.

     

    I've made my point.  Now all we can do is wait and see who else speaks up.

     

    If you're wondering why I waited till 2012 to bring this up, it's because I'm typical of many old school guys who are still in the process of "turning the boat around" and trying to fully commit ourselves to ID.  You have to understand, we devoted our lives in the '90s to learning Quark inside out, back to front, top to bottom... it's hard to just cast all that knowledge aside in favor of your app. 

     

     

    BTW, using layers (turning them on and off etc.) does help in trying to position things.  It's a good workaround for sure, but there ain't nothin' like Command-Y.  ;-)   It's the one and the only.   If ID had Command-Y, it would definitely be truly "better than Quark" once and for all.

     

     

     

     

     

    4panel_ThumbTubePocket_CDdigipak.jpg

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jan 15, 2012 8:14 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    You're wondering why we don't just continue doing these packaging jobs in AI.  The reason is because more and more printers and manufacturers are specifically requesting ID files now, so we have no choice but to get on the bandwagon.

    Still not getting it.

    Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

    Alternatively, copy-and-pasting the vector data from AI to ID as long as you are under the convert-to-PDF threshold?

     
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    Jan 15, 2012 8:46 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    John Hawkinson wrote:

     

    Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

     

     

    John - I've just read your question about 10 times and I'm still not getting it.  Did you forget to use one word, like maybe the word "not" some place in that sentence?

     

    Further, with all due respect, I get the feeling that you still don't understand the gist of this discussion.  It's about the View Outlines option.  It's not about how to place docs in ID. 

     

    Quite frankly my friend, I've written absolutely everything I can think of on this subject, and I'm spent.  I take it that you also are not an AI expert, otherwise you wouldn't even question the value of View Outlines and how it could be so beneficial to ID... it's an indispensable tool.  You guys never use it on a regular basis, so how would you know?  (But I have to wonder how you can argue so vehemently about something you're really not familiar with... but I guess with 4,154 posts, this is what you like to do, so maybe that accounts for it.)


    If you've got a minute, please re-read my posts, hopefully without skimming this time, and you'll start to see what it is I'm talking about.  Once again, my apologies for the "emotional" remarks included herein.

     

    Thanks.  I really gotta run.  Let's just wait to see if any other experienced graphic artists pick up on this thread.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jan 15, 2012 9:01 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout sufficient?

     

    John - I've just read your question about 10 times and I'm still not getting it.  Did you forget to use one word, like maybe the word "not" some place in that sentence?

    Sorry, terribly sorry. Indeed, I meant "Why is an Illustrator file placed into an InDesign layout not sufficient?"

     

    Further, with all due respect, I get the feeling that you still don't understand the gist of this discussion.  It's about the View Outlines option.  It's not about how to place docs in ID. 

    Well, yes. That's kind of what I meant when I said, "still not getting it."

     

    I wouldn't consider myself an Illustrator Expert, but I think everyone I work with would. I absolutely understand the value of View Outlines -- in Illustrator. Like Peter, I am extremely puzzled why anyone would want to work with paths in InDesign to the degree to which View Outlines in InDesign would be useful.

     

    (But I have to wonder how you can argue so vehemently about something you're really not familiar with... but I guess with 4,154 posts, this is what you like to do, so maybe that accounts for it.)

    This is about the fourth time you have, in my opinion, crossed the line of politeness. That kind of speech is inappropriate in this forum.

     
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    Jan 15, 2012 9:32 PM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    You guys are Brits aren't you?  I just got a sense of that.

     

    John, I really don't want to appear rude, and I apologize profusely (as usual) if it seems that way, but after everything I've written, it's very frustrating to see that you still have no clue what it is I'm getting at.  I've gone to great lengths to explain it from every possible angle I can think of, and yet you still come back with these comments that seem to have no bearing on the points I've made, hence my frustration.  I'll refrain from quoting Jethro Tull here!  ;-)

     

    I've practically written a thesis on this forum already over the last couple of days.  LOL

     

    Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI (which I had already surmised anyway, based on your comments), so you truly don't understand how it is we use View Outlines, and thus you can never truly imagine how it would be beneficial to the workflow.  It's not something we use "every once in a while".  View Outlines (Command-Y) is an integral part of the workflow... we're constantly switching back and forth.  It just allows you to clear the deck and see the actual skeletal structure... but why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when you've never used it and you're convinced that it's unnecessary?  This is an absolutely pointless discussion.  A complete waste of time. (I sincerely hope that's not a rude comment too, and I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic in saying that).

     

    You need to hear from others who are making the transition to ID after years of alternating between Quark and AI in the past to set up print jobs, and who are extremely accustomed to this tool and would like to see it implemented into ID.  

     

    Besides, I'm too cheeky for this forum anyway!   ;-)  I really must be off now.   All the best!

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Jan 15, 2012 9:43 PM   in reply to Ferroid

    You guys are Brits aren't you?  I just got a sense of that.

    No. In fact Peter and I both live in Massachusetts.

     

    John, I really don't want to appear rude,

    Not to belabor the point, but don't make snarky comments about other people's intentions.

     

    Further, you (as did Peter) readily admit that you are not an expert in AI (which I had already surmised anyway, based on your comments), so you truly don't understand how it is we use View Outlines

    No. We get it. We use View Outlines all the time. In Illustrator.

    But we don't use InDesign to do a job we would do in Illustrator.

    And the question we have asked you, over and over in this thread, is why you would want to do that kind of job in InDesign.

     

    Why don't you answer it?

     

    The one time we got close to an answer you said that "printers and manufacturers" wanted you to send InDesign files. But that's not a sufficient answer -- what is wrong with an InDesign file with an Illustrator file placed in it? That is how I would do this kind of work, and I believe how Peter would do it as well.

     

    .. but why should I continue to keep trying to explain this to you when you've never used it and you're convinced that it's unnecessary?  This is an absolutely pointless discussion.  A complete waste of time. (I sincerely hope that's not a rude comment too, and I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic in saying that).

    No, it's quite rude. We both use View Outlines regularly (at least I do and I'm fairly sure Peter does).

    So to say we have "never used it" without having asked us is rude, as well as foolish.

     
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