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Monitor profile is defective

Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Every single time I power up CS5 I get an error :

"The monitor profile "Samsung - Natural Color Pro 1.0 ICM" appears to be defective. Please rerun your monitor calibration software.

No other application complain about this.

The monitor is a Samsung SyncMaster 226CW

If I go .. Control Panels \ Color Management

I can see that there is a profile "Samsung Natural Color Pro 1.0 ICM (default) file SM226CWicm

It is the ONLY profile listed.

As per a previous post here ... I followed advice to delete the profile ..

I delete it ... I am then prompted to chose a new profile .....from the list shown there is the "Samsung Natural Color Pro 1.0 ICM"

I select that.

Then next time I start CS ... same error message again.

How do I fix this ?

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

LEGEND , Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

Before you delete the profile, click the Add button at the lower-left and scroll down a little ways choose the one with Name: sRGB IEC6196602.1, Filename: sRGB Color Space Profile.icm

Then delete the Samsung profile and select the sRGB profile and set it as the default.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Before you delete the profile, click the Add button at the lower-left and scroll down a little ways choose the one with Name: sRGB IEC6196602.1, Filename: sRGB Color Space Profile.icm

Then delete the Samsung profile and select the sRGB profile and set it as the default.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Actually, just make the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile the (default) using the OS color-management dialog and you don't need to delete anything.

And yep, monitor profiles are often defective. It's a real wonder that monitor companies don't know more about this - what an embarrassment to release such a profile!

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Guys ... it worked ....

Do you know why the Samsung profile does not work ? ....just an eductaion thing for me?

I even downloaded latest version, it installed , and even detected correct GPU etc.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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A color profile can be quite complex.  There's a good chance Samsung either crafted the profile with software that a) didn't generate a properly formatted or populated profile or b) created a profile using the very latest new standards, which your Adobe software does not yet know fully how to deal with.

It's a bit surprising that Samsung would not have tested it with Adobe Photoshop, however.  That's pretty much THE preeminent color-managed application.

Would you be willing to send me a copy of the profile, or post the link from which you retrieved it?  Edit:  I've just been over to the Samsung.com web site to try to get a copy of that profile and it's maddening!  They really need to get their act together regarding how to design a web site.  I was unsuccessful.

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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happy to send copy of profile ..  I agree not easy to find the download file took a while  ..

I have loaded it at this link.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir92cypmve3670

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Thank you.  I was able to get the SM226CW.icm file out of that.  I like to collect questionable profiles to test my own software with.

On examination, the Samsung profile doesn't appear corrupt, per se, though it does seem to be missing the CMM type field (it's blank; all the profiles I recall say ADBE, or APPL, or Lino, etc.).  The curves also appear to have a gamma of 1.45, which is pretty low.

Perhaps Adobe is picking up on these irregularities.  Note that Photoshop gives you the opportunity to use it anyway.

I'm happy that when the "use anyway" option is chosen, my own color-managed software performs identically to Adobe's, so the content is interpretable after a fashion.

Since this profile seems pretty different than the standard sRGB profile provided with Windows, and if color accuracy is important to you, you might want to consider getting a measurement device which can calibrate/profile your display.  On the other hand, if consistency amongst the various apps you use on the display is most important to you, the use of the sRGB profile for the monitor may be a good way to go.

Thanks again.

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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I have also raised a tkt with Samsung ... I'll update this is they advise anything.

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Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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More likely the matrix is non-invertable or doesn't match the white point, the white point not D50, etc.

ACE does a lot of error checking on profiles, because we've seen so many that ignore the spec.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Yeah, it's not too new...  This profile is dated 2007.

Funny thing is Samsung knows about this - a search for the error leads one to their site, among others.

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Should I use the Samsung Profile, and choose ignore at the error ?

Or use the profile mentioned above.

Can I change or adapt either to get a correct profile.

Before I posted here I Googled and a few sites had fixes using Adobe Gamma?

But that is not installed as part of CS 5.5

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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I personally wouldn't want to use a profile that caused the software to emit an error every time.

How would you rate the relative importance of these things (i.e., if you couldn't have both, which would you prefer)?

  • Having Photoshop display things on your monitor that are showing correct color, so that you can send an image off (e.g., to a printer or for display on the web) and have the color come out as expected.
  • Having Photoshop's display of colors match what you see in most other applications on your system.  What you see in one app more often looks like what you see in another app.

Depending on your monitor, because of the current state of the art these are actually mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, the decision on how to set one's system up for color-management has to be a personal one.  Only you can know what your image editing needs are, what color spaces you prefer to work in, and how you want your graphics work with color-management to fit in with the rest of the things you do with your computer.

One easy answer is to purchase a color measurement device and use it to create your own custom calibration and profile.  Yes, that costs money.

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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This probably explains why all pictures viewed with standard W7 pic viewer had a white balance error.

Whites were decidedly off.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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When I tried your profile all the whites turned orange.

-Noel

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Participant ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Threat is what I see, a if someone has used a warm filter.

So for now I'll use the'new' profile, and wait to see what Samsung respond with.

If there is any additional 'tech'explanation of what is wrong with profile, please feel free to tell me, I'll add it to Samsung tkt.

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Engaged ,
Feb 11, 2012 Feb 11, 2012

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Have you actually tried to use a calibrator like i1 pro to calibrate/profile the monitor?

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Participant ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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No... I assume this is a hardware device.

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Community Expert ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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I googled SM226CW and came up with a model that appears to be wide gamut.

In that case you shouldn't use sRGB as replacement for the Samsung profile - Adobe RGB would be a closer match.

But with wide gamut monitors you buy into a different paradigm (so to speak) than the traditional one. The only sensible thing is really to use a calibrator, use color managed applications whenever possible, and ignore what you see in those that aren't (because it just won't be right no matter what).

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Participant ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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A few years back on different ver of Photoshop (and different monitor ) I used Adobe Gamma to set the profile ... are there any free utilities that will allow that, as Adobe gamma no longer installed with CS.

I'll admit I don't even know what wide Gamut means

The manual for the monitor is attached - if that provides any information that may help... it is connected via digital DVi connection ... when you install driver it asks which you want .. analogue or digital.

Samsung have now responded to ticket .. "profile must be corrupt, please download new version from website" which is what I have already done.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir92cypmve3670

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Community Expert ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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The type of connection (DVI or VGA) has no bearing on this.

Wide gamut means the monitor can reproduce a wider range of colors - more saturated -  than a standard gamut monitor. The difference is similar to the difference between the sRGB and Adobe RGB color spaces.

Here's one way to illustrate it:

wide gamut2.png

A monitor profile will take this into account and remap the colors accordingly so that colors that fit into the display gamut will display correctly in either case. Colors that are outside the display gamut will be "clipped" to the gamut boundary. But if you use the wrong profile this remapping breaks down, and things will appear either over- or undersaturated.

Does this make any sense?

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Community Expert ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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As for software calibrators similar to Adobe Gamma, there is this: http://calibrize.com/

But you would have to start by pinning down the RGB primaries, which these solutions won't do for you. Adobe RGB won't be far off, so if you make the profile based on that it should work reasonably well.

Still, it's a halfway solution. I'd like to repeat what I wrote above for emphasis: Wide gamut monitors introduce a whole new playing field. A lot of things one could previously take for granted are no longer valid. A calibrator should really be included in the deal (which it usually is for the more high-end units).

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Participant ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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Thanks for that.

I don't have     a calibration device, I'll download the s/w one mentioned,

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Engaged ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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This is crazy making, for me, anyway. What you are saying is that, lacking a proper calibration procedure which ignores the color space in which you work to correctly map the test color to the output of the monitor, one simply employs the color space of your choice. Well, let me tell you that even in a calibrated environment the results may still not be right if the job done is not correct.

A case in point:

I decided to re-calibrate my new Dell. Since I had run, several times, the Advanced procedure, using the i1colorimeter with X-Rite software and found the results consistent, I was satisfied that the procedure was correct. Prints matched beautifully, except those whose gamut range exceeded the gamut range of the monitor, which were very rare. So this time, I decided to use the Easy version. After all, my calibration points were set manually the lat time in Advanced, and Easy does not allow for resetting those.

When I finished and did the before/after check, there was a noticeable shift. Hmmm. So the monitor drifts. Crap! I ran the Monitor validator. Average dE was 0.36. Good. But wait! the Average last time was almost identical, 0.4. Why am I seeing this shift?

So I went back and did it again, this time using Advanced, but, like in the Easy run, I did not touch any of the manual adjustments. When I finished, again the before/after showed a shift but the shift was back to the original calibration a month ago. Average about 0.45.

Well, I knew without even looking what the problem was. Easy did not hold to the tolerances that Advanced did, and when I examined the shifts from target values to actual, for each of the colors employed, I found several colors that were out significantly from their target values, some between 1 and 2. Further, these same colors were off in both Easy and Advanced, but were far closer in the Advanced run; none over dE 0.9 and the cluster around the average value was tighter.

I did a substitution of last month's profile against the current. The image showed the barest shift, almost unnoticeable between the two profiles.

I was much relieved.

Simply put, I cannot see or agree to the notion that you can substitute a color space for the calibration profile and achieve accuracy. I t might work if the monitor had no errors at all; then you are simply limiting the output of the monitor to that of the color space, assuming the monitor will reproduce it.

In short, if the colors aren't right, you are not correctly profiled. Profile the instrument with a calibration device, then set the color space in the app, if allowed, as it is in Photoshop.

One final note, and that is about those colors that are significantly above the average. If you look at a specific patch, it comes with a set of L*A*B values, and the chart shows the variation from those values that constitutes the error for the corrected output.

That error is also an average, quantifying the individual L*A*B error as an average. However, it is possible to have a consistent dE value for that color, yet the actual color be very different, if the numbers are different. From this I conclude that what I see is the relationship between the colors themselves having as much to do with what the eye sees as the error (too red etc) as the dE value itself. Applying a color space will not fix that.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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In short, if the colors aren't right, you are not correctly profiled.

Therein lies the problem, Lawrence.

Not only do tolerances figure here - for one person, it might be good enough that "red" is subtantially reddish, while for another measurements in excess of 0.4 with an accurate colorimeter are unacceptable.  Consumers of imagery may have different tolerance for error than producers of imagery.  Thus there is no one definition of "right".  Some monitors can't even be made "right" at all positions on the same display.

BUT...  Even image producers can vary in their requirements.  Simply put, not everyone has the same needs and goals

For one person, having prints match Photoshop display is paramount, while for another having color-managed apps most often match non-color-managed apps may be more important.  It kind of depends on what you do and what you need.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right here - just the opposite:  We should not be using the terms "wrong" or "right" or "correct".  Trying to determine the "best approach for the stated goals" might be a better way to discuss color-management. For that we need to get people to state goals.

In the end, education is the key:  Virtually everyone who finally "groks" color-management - and it's not really that difficult to understand fully - can make the best decisions about settings and methods for them.

Waiting is.

-Noel

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Community Expert ,
Feb 12, 2012 Feb 12, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote

Let's not overcomplicate this.

The main point I was trying to make re calibration and wide gamut monitors, is that you don't have an immediate reference for the colors if you're inexperienced. It's like free fall, there's nothing to hold on to. All the basic stuff that with a standard gamut monitor displays more or less right, is suddenly wrong.

A calibrator gives you that reference. But you need one more thing: you need to know that with that monitor only color managed material will look right. Anything that is not will simply be wrong and there's nothing to do about it. This is why these monitors aren't for everyone.

So who needs to calibrate? I think it depends on what environment you're in, and what your end product is.

If you're in a production chain where you rely on others and others rely on you, there's really no choice. You just have to be on the same page as everybody else; if you're not the whole production line stops dead. Wasted time and money.

If you control the whole process yourself things are different. As long as the end product, like a print, comes out right, it doesn't really matter how you got there.

If you work for web or other types of networking, you're somewhere in between, but mostly because it's uncontrollable anyway. When color management becomes mainstream on the web, standards inevitably tighten.

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