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yrwiur
Currently Being Moderated

Xmp to DNG?

Feb 25, 2012 6:32 PM

Tags: #automatically #catalog #settings #changes #xmp #write #into

I belive when you choose (Libarary>Catalog Settings>Metadata>Automatically Write Changes Into XMP) the changes to the metadata is also written into a DNG file.

 

I change my photos to DNG upon import so I was looking for the setting to auto write changes to file.  Checking the box above did what I wanted, at least in LR3, but I think this should be made clear in the settings dialogue.

 

I know when i have made suggestions before I discovered what I wanted was already there but I just didn't find it.  I'm assuming that the DNG files contains something called XMP but it wasn't clear to me that the setting above would write to the dng file or create a sidecar file.  My suggestion is that the Catalog settings dialogue makes this clear so one wouldn't wonder what to check.  Unless I'm sending xmp files back and forth to an editor whom already has the camera raw file, which I don't, it shouldn't be expected that I even know what an XMP file is.

 

Thanks.

Eric

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 12:32 AM   in reply to yrwiur

    Hi Eric,

     

    I assume that Adobe does not feel a need to be more explicit regarding where the xmp-part for a file is, because you have absolutely no say in it.

    Proprietary raw formats (like Nikon's NEF oder Canon's CR2) cannot be written into, so a sidecar-file will be created (same filename befor the ending.xmp).

    DNG and JPG are containers and have a section for xmp data inside, so this where it will be written to.

     

    It is actually one of my arguments for converting to DNG that I find it more convenient and fool-proof not to have separate sidecar files.

     

    Cornelia

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Apr 16, 2009
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    Feb 26, 2012 8:45 AM   in reply to Cornelia-I

    The auto save XMP doesn’t apply to DNG as I understand it. That is, embed that data (among other data) INTO the DNG (it should apply changes to the catalog). I prefer to have all that data embedded into the DNG itself. I too would like some kind of auto update the DNG but I don’t believe such a command exists. So you have to manually use the Save Metadata to File command or better but slower, Update DNG Preview and Metadata command. The other thing you can do is re-convert a DNG using that later command, useful if you want to update the new Fast Load Data option. I was told there is no downside other than the time it takes to do so and this update will embed all the metadata, the embedded JPEG and of course build this new and useful Fast Load preview data, basically removing the need to use the ACR cache. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 8:59 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew Rodney wrote:

     

    The auto save XMP doesn’t apply to DNG as I understand it.

     

    Andrew, I'm pretty sure that it does.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Feb 26, 2012 9:08 AM   in reply to Jim Wilde

    jim01403 wrote:

     

    Andrew, I'm pretty sure that it does.

    Well you are absolutely correct in that at least in terms of adding a keyword, I did see a DNG update with the auto setting on. I need to do more testing to see that everything gets updated. I know the JPEG preview doesn’t (you do have to force that issue with the command). The question becomes, does any of the XMP data get written to the catalog that might not be written to the DNG? Or is the Auto XMP providing the equivalent update to the DNG that it would place in a sidecar?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 9:19 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    I believe the metadata written to the DNG would be the same as written to a sidecar, BUT neither of them would be the complete set of metadata that is stored in the catalog. Specifically: Flags, VCs, collection membership, develop history, stacks plus some panel switches, are not written to the file by "Auto Write XMP", or the manual Ctrl-S operation.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Apr 16, 2009
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:01 AM   in reply to Jim Wilde

    jim01403 wrote:

     

    I believe the metadata written to the DNG would be the same as written to a sidecar, BUT neither of them would be the complete set of metadata that is stored in the catalog. Specifically: Flags, VCs, collection membership, develop history, stacks plus some panel switches, are not written to the file by "Auto Write XMP", or the manual Ctrl-S operation.

    Moving from LR to ACR, I do see develop settings updating in the DNG with Auto XMP on, that is good. But no a Snapshot. Using Command (control) S does update the snapshot. Interesting! There is no Develop History in ACR so I assume you are correct since Snapshots don’t appear to update with the auto XMP setting.

     

    I suspect that the Save Metadata command for DNG might update everything expect the preview for the JPEG. It is pretty fast to operate while using the Update Metadata and Preview command takes more time for obvious reasons.

     

    If I have this correct, with your help, I’d suggest we have three options:

     

    1. Auto update XMP. Provides the same update for DNG as raws with sidecar files but as you point out, doesn’t update everything. Some data is within the catalog.

    2. Save Metadata to File* (Command/Control S). Updates all (?) the other items expect the embedded preview (a size one sets in preferences). Here is where I’m not totally clear what does or doesn’t update the DNG that lives in the catalog. I’m not sure everything is necessary to update anyway (there are no VC’s in ACR or for that matter other converters so I see no need in specifying this data).

    3. Update DNG Metadata and Preview*: Saves all of the above into the DNG.

     

    *Only accessible from Library which is kind of a limitation. It would be really nice if one could ask for option 2 and/or option 3 along with the Auto update XMP preferences for DNG users. Then as you edit your DNG, when the system is presumably idle, all that data could be updated into the DNG. Option 3 will invoke a speed hit, option 2 seems to be as quick as option 1.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:06 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    This is interesting and useful. If in LR I update the DNG camera profile, Auto XMP seems to handle that as well. I see the newer profile shown in ACR. I do wonder if this is a metadata tag or if the profile itself is embedded into the DNG which I know is possible. I suspect the later, these profiles are pretty small.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 10:39 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew Rodney wrote:

     

     

    If I have this correct, with your help, I’d suggest we have three options:

     

    1. Auto update XMP. Provides the same update for DNG as raws with sidecar files but as you point out, doesn’t update everything. Some data is within the catalog.

    2. Save Metadata to File* (Command/Control S). Updates all (?) the other items expect the embedded preview (a size one sets in preferences). Here is where I’m not totally clear what does or doesn’t update the DNG that lives in the catalog. I’m not sure everything is necessary to update anyway (there are no VC’s in ACR or for that matter other converters so I see no need in specifying this data).

    3. Update DNG Metadata and Preview*: Saves all of the above into the DNG.

     

     

    It was always my understanding the the act of writing XMP data via 1 or 2 was always the same, only the initiation method was different....so it's interesting that there IS a difference regarding snapshots. The stuff that isn't updated is probably only relevant to those people who routinely write XMP data into their sidecars/DNGs as part of a 'belt and braces' backup solution.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Feb 26, 2012 10:53 AM   in reply to Jim Wilde

    jim01403 wrote:

    It was always my understanding the the act of writing XMP data via 1 or 2 was always the same, only the initiation method was different....so it's interesting that there IS a difference regarding snapshots. The stuff that isn't updated is probably only relevant to those people who routinely write XMP data into their sidecars/DNGs as part of a 'belt and braces' backup solution.

    Well testing the waters again now I DO see the snapshot from LR in ACR with just Auto XMP. So I think you are again correct.

     

    Now I suspect that Auto XMP and the Save Metadata to File are probably in parity. The later is for those that don’t want to use the Auto preference which in the old days slowed down LR but these days seems to be fine, at least on my machines. That would make sense too.

     

    The difference is obviously Update DNG Metadata and Preview with the major difference being the updating of the embedded JPEG.

     

    I’d still like to know what is missing from 1&2 in terms of data not embedded into the DNG that does fall into the catalog, aside from the Preview.

     

    FWIW, Star Ratings are updated automatically. Put Pick isn’t (another reason I use a keyword here in addition to selecting this in LR).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 11:19 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew, snapshots are written to the DNG by the auto setting but I suspect it's only when changes to another Develop setting or Library value triggers the write operation.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 26, 2012 11:58 AM   in reply to yrwiur

    I find that I'm not getting complete updates in bridge of changes that I make I make to files in LR4 with the exception of crops. PS 4, Bridge 3.00.4.6.4. This happens with jpegs and dngs. Tiffs exhibit the changes ok. If I re-import a dng file, the changes to the file are there. What can be done so that bridge reflects changes from LR4? Am in the correct discussion to begin with?

     
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