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LCCS Alternatives

Mar 19, 2012 7:56 PM

Hi all,

 

You may have seen an email message earlier today from me describing our plans to shutdown the LCCS service on December 31st.    I would like to use this thread for the community to discuss alternatives.   There isn't a one-size fits all solution so I think it's useful to talk about a couple of different options.  You may discover others on your own so please post them here.  To get the discussion started, here's some things I've looked at.

 

  • Open Source.  We have looked at this as an option and it's simply not viable for a number of reasons.   There are dependancies on third party and Adobe code that are extremely difficult to separate out.   Some of this code runs other services at Adobe that will continue to operate.
  • Flash Media Server.  LCCS is an application built on top of FMS.   I've spoken with some customers that are planning to build the LCCS features they need on top of an FMS server.   Having spoken with the FMS product manager, I can say that FMS continues to have a roadmap and will be getting investment.   We will continue to sell it into the future.   I realize this option may not be viable for some because of the associated expense around licensing and hosting your own FMS server - which brings us to FMS hosting
  • FMS hosting services:  http://www.influxis.com/ does FMS hosting.  There may be others that provide this service as well.   Please post others if you know of any. 

 

Also if you need further information from Adobe, I''ll do my best to dig it up.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 
Replies 1 2 3 Previous Next
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 3:05 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    HI Jeff,

     

     

     

    Thanks for your continued help with this. I fully understand many of these issues are totally out of your hands.

     

     

     

    We do have an FMS Server, used in a different part of our company, and it’s as yet not something Ive been able to look at. There are others that are in charge of it.

     

     

     

    What Im looking for is some understanding of how I would go about transferring our LCCS functionality onto the FMS server.

     

     

     

    Bearing in mind that as of this moment I am starting from a point of zero FMS knowledge, apart from knowing it’s there and available for me to use.

     

    The current FMS server in our company is used to with pre-built modules and we don’t have an FMS developer in house. It looks like Im about to become that person

     

     

     

    Where do I even start lol

     

     

     

    Initially, I would need to translate what we’ve been able to do with LCCS via our FMS Server.

     

     

     

    Im really looking for any help, I can with this.

     

     

     

    Bear in mind that today is effectively day one of my R&D time regarding this, and I thought contacting you could be a good start.

     

     

     

    We have several projects that were due to be based around LCCS services that I now need to look at again with a view to running them via FMS.

     

     

     

    My basic question,  where do I even start J

     

     

     

    Anything would be helpful, even a list of resources or possibly to make contact with others here who are about to start the same journey.

     

     

     

    Thanks as always Jeff

     

     

     

    Regards

     

     

     

    Glenn

     

    Tinylion uk

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 4:36 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hello Jeff,

     

    I am sad to learn about LCCS. Can you please tell me how we can continue to use screensharing on standard FMS?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 9:13 AM   in reply to Glenn Williams

    Hi Glen,

     

    I would first start here and check if any of the FMS examples would help:

     

    http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashmediaserver/samples.html

     

    If you bought FMS, check their forum and see if there is support for developing some of the features you need.

     

    -Jamie

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 9:24 AM   in reply to alecsmart

    Hi Alec,

     

    I don't have any advice on implementing screen sharing but would this help you?

     

    http://code.google.com/p/red5-screenshare/

     

    -Jamie

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 12:05 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hi Jeff,

     

    Yes, anything that would give a one-to-one (or as close as can be) for using/creating components that fulfill the same functionality on FMS as LCCS would be great.

     

    For example, what are the FMS equivelents to the LCCS SDK Navigator app that explains all the components we can use.

     

    iBrent

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 12:18 PM   in reply to iBr3nt

    As far as I can tell, LCCS was built on FMS and an XMPP server. ( google XEP-60 for more detail on the XMPP angle )

    My current plan is to use FMS or Red5 with Openfire or eJabberd. It'll also need some glue to tie authentication and screenshare into it.

     

    I think with a bit of effort, I'll be able to reuse most of the LCCS client code and have a pretty stable, maintainable system.

     

    Does any one else have any plans yet?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 20, 2012 11:48 PM   in reply to Jamie Ho

    Hello Jamie,

     

    I have implemented the screensharing feature for many customers of mine. And now am absolutely stuck. I don't mind using FMS 4.5 (Influxis etc.), but does screensharing work on them? This is going to be a huge loss for me

     

    I don't know Java or any other language.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 21, 2012 12:47 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Jeff,

     

    A few months ago at the Flex Summit, Adobe announced that it would donate LCCS to the Spoon project.

     

    http://www.spoon.as/2011/flex-summit-live-updates-day-2/


    "Adobe will do the following…

    Open source contribution of related technologies:

    blazeds.net, server-side AS, LCDS, LCCS, TLF, Gravity, FXG, OSMF"

     

    Is Adobe still going according to this plan, or this yet another broken promise from Adobe?

     

    Because quite franklly, replacing hundreds of thousands of dollars of code is not a feasible solution. And considering Adobe's recent track record at taking care of its customer base, neither is reverse-engineering something that works perfectly well to work with another Abode product (FMS) with a now very questionable lifespan. Either find a way to migrate it to Spoon, or sell it as a standalone product like FMS so that the millions of dollars the industry has spent developing for this technology will not go to waste. Anything less is simply abysmally irresponsible.

     

    Please Adobe, I am begging you, do not shut this down without migrating it to spoon or offering it as a standalone product like FMS.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 21, 2012 12:07 PM   in reply to joeflashTO2

    +1 for joeflashTO2 .  this is astonishing.  hundreds of thousands indeed.  i'm too stunned to respond properly right now.

     

    this is *so* incredibly irresponsible.  at least migrate to spoon.  that's the very, very least that adobe could do.  please, jeff, can you speak to this? 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2012 4:43 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Jeff, what should I do about screen sharing? You need to provide us with an alternative. I have thousands of sites using my code which uses screensharing. Now what should I do? This is a disaster.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2012 7:59 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Jeff,

     

    I appreciate your ongiong help in trying to find an alternative for us.  I think going through an FMS hosting service would be the best option.  My only question is how do we set up the backend so that it can talk to the client and allow all the features we currently enjoy (i.e. video, chat, whiteboard, etc...) as well as room provisioning?  I do not want to go through ten different 3rd party solutions to get all the feratures LCCS supports.  It's not only a waste of time/money on our end, it's also a waste of thousands of man hours of coding by the Adobe engineers.  I want to use the LCCS front end as is!  Will you be offering the code/installation instructions so that we can get this set up on FMS?  I don't need account management or billing, just the LCCS functionality.

     

    Thanks,

     

    Matt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 22, 2012 10:01 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Thanks for the clarification Jeff. Oh well, for a while there was hope.

     

    Personally I have absolutely no interest in alternatives. The is no reason nor excuse good enough to can a perfectly good technology which many companies have invested millions developing for. Adobe, please find a way for someone to take up the torch. You owe us, your loyal customers and clients, that much.

     

    Thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 1:31 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hello I am the creator of edoboard.com

     

    For us it will be the end of the product I have no time to reinvest to find & develop an alternative solution.

    However I found that UC engine may matches some of the features needed http://ucengine.af83.com/ to do a porting.

     

    In the meantime I will prepare a 'memorial page' with videos of the product .

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 1:36 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Jeff, atleast allow us to create accounts for 3 more months. We have clients who use their own accounts for using our component. Now without account creation option, they are stuck and our component is rendered USELESS.

     

    Adobe is ruining our business completely. We are really small and now we can no longer sell our component. I'm at loss of words. How can you have a migration plan so sudden. Google and all other companies offer a plan of atleast 6 months.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 3:49 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hi Jeff,

    would Adobe consider selling or licensing the LCCS source if a company would be interested in carrying the LCCS business forward?

    I don't talk about my company, but there seems to be quite an interrest for LCCS, so maybe a company like Influxis would be interested to take over.

     

    It would be a win/win for everybody because some have invested a lot in LCCS...

     

    If it could be an option, and you announce that, we could forward the message to potential acquirer.

     

    Dimitri K.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 9:04 AM   in reply to joeflashTO2

    All-

     

    Just a clarification from someone in the room that day. Adobe didn't say they would donate LCCS to Spoon.

     

    First, Spoon is not the recipient of any code donations at all. Any code that Adobe has donated is to Apache, not to Spoon.

     

    Now, the post being refered to is badly worded. It is actually not so much a post as just a live blogging of the events and slides of the summit as they were appearing. Here is the wording from that post and I added some clarification in square brackets [].

     

    Adobe will do the following…

    - [Determine] Whether FalconJS can be contributed before Falcon AS is complete

    - Plan for when we contribute Falcon AS via Apache

    - [Establisn the] Duration of runtime support commitment for Flex applications

    - [Decide upon the] Availability and duration of new and renewed Adobe Flex SDK support contracts

    - [Evaluate whether they will make] Open source contribution of related technologies:

    blazeds.net, server-side AS, LCDS, LCCS, TLF, Gravity, FXG, OSMF

     

    The audience asked about LCDS, LCCS, TLF, FXG, OSMF, etc. on Day 1 and Adobe didn't have an answer. On Day 2 Adobe came back and said they still could not answer. However, they made a todo list of things they would do... that is the list you see above. So, it was on their to-do list to get us final answers on these items, but they didn't say they would give it to Spoon or Apache.

     

    On that list so far, they have finsihed the first 4 tasks as of the Flex whitepaper. For the 5th task, the open source one, they made a commitment on BlazeDS, however, no final answer has been given on the others to the best of my knowledge.

     

    If you want to see it yourself, I believe this is all in the last 45 minutes or so of the videos from day 2.

     

    Mike

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 23, 2012 6:37 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Thanks Jeff,

    The fact that you are looking at possible options is great news. This is wholeheartedly appreciated.

     

    One additional aspect I'd like to add to the conversation is that if Adobe has costs/losses associated with keeping the service up and running, the developement community should be polled about our willingness to pay more for the service. I'm sure there are people in the same position as myself who had planned for much greater use of the service once our products have gone into production. There may be other cost structures, including a simple rate increase, that would enable Adobe to keep it running for an extension of the currently planned shutdown schedule without that cost burden.

     

    I'm not sure how relevant this suggestion is, but my point is that if bottom line cost is an issue, we should explore solutions.

     

    Barry

     
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    Mar 24, 2012 11:23 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    thank you jeff for some encouraging news.  it's good to know that some discussion is still possible here. 

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 1:49 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hi Jeff,

     

    Thanks for starting this thread.

     

    Are you saying that LCCS is built on top of FMS "ALONE" ?

    Or is it that FMS is one of the peices in the puzzle?

     

    For supporting large number of user, one node solution will be a no no for us.

    We definitely need to have some clustered solution.

    My first impression was that there is LCDS/BlazeDS also somewhere in the puzzle and you

    use that to cluster your servers.

     

    Anyway, I would like to know how we can do the clustering, load balancing and failovers?

     

    Regards

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 7:33 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Thanks for the reassuring news Jeff!  When you say "ease the transition from LCCS", you mean transition from the brand and not the functionality, right?

     

    And I would have no problem paying more for the service bandwidth as well!

     

    Matt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 10:20 AM   in reply to amma-adobe

    In response to amma-adobe,

    FMS is just one component of LCCS, but FMS does not do it's own load balancing and fail over.

     

    Some of the components required for LCCS fail-over are technologies that require a license. This is another complication as far as open sourcing is concerned I would think.

     

    Barry

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 10:58 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    I have been developing for a while on a new project with LCCS.  Having heard on the potential demise of it, I have a few pointers for potential alternatives.

     

    If you just need shared data (not video, not screen sharing),  I really like union server: http://www.unionplatform.com/

    If you want free, open source (I haven't found much on the flex side, but a lot on the server side) : http://www.bigbluebutton.org/    <- This has some awesome possibilities for a good LCCS migration.  I think if we all pitch in, we could probably convert it straight across with the Flex LCCS libraries we have.  Red5 does not do RTMFP, however.

     

    Last but not least is Wowza & FMS.  An excellent comparison chart can be found here: http://askmeflash.com/article/10/comparison-wowza-vs-fms-vs-red5

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 11:03 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Jeff,

     

    Is there any way you think you can talk Adobe into allowing us to use the LCCS libraries on the flex side?  So we can ignore:

     

    /*

    *

    * ADOBE CONFIDENTIAL

    * ___________________

    *

    * Copyright [2007-2010] Adobe Systems Incorporated

    * All Rights Reserved.

    *

    * NOTICE:  All information contained herein is, and remains

    * the property of Adobe Systems Incorporated and its suppliers,

    * if any.  The intellectual and technical concepts contained

    * herein are proprietary to Adobe Systems Incorporated and its

    * suppliers and are protected by trade secret or copyright law.

    * Dissemination of this information or reproduction of this material

    * is strictly forbidden unless prior written permission is obtained

    * from Adobe Systems Incorporated.

    */

     

    This will allow us to create some migrations easier.

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 1:32 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    The only reason my company decided to invest in LCCS was the ability to do remote viewing and controling.  Does anyone know of an alternative that allows for this?

     
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    Mar 26, 2012 9:03 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Thanks mattcom.

     

    I was looking at BigBlueButton too!  It does seem like a workable alternative.  Do they allow for room provisioning and external authentication?

     

    The problem with every alternative I've looked at is that they all lack some feature(s) that LCCS has and which are absolutely needed for my site.

     

    Matt

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 4:05 AM   in reply to BARRYC16

    Hi Barry,

     

    Thanks for your response.

    Are you saying that Adobe has licensed that technology from someone else?

    I am wondering what that technology stack is, that is used to do LCCS

    failover?

    We could also possibly buy the license then, given that Adobe is not going

    to support it any longer.

     

     

    Is LCDS/BlazeDS part of LCCS or not?

     

    Regards

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 5:31 AM   in reply to phaseblue

    BBB does not do room provisioning, nor does it do authentication.

     

    External authentication is easy enough.  You can build one against your own server in less than 100 lines of code, or use other authentication services like OAuth against a number of sites like facebook, google, yahoo etc.

     

    So, for those interested, I have decided to create server-side code that will be cross-platform for LCCS to resolve to Red5, FMS, or Wowza.  It will ulitimately require some tweaking of the Flex side libraries, but it should be able to keep most of our existing LCCS projects intact. 

     

    A few caveats though:

         1.) I will be doing this so that you can purchase your own server license & hardware & internet services, I will not be creating an Adobe server cloud.  I am definately a novice when it comes to hardware.

         2.) I will try my very best to have the first set of code ready by August on demo servers. 

         3.) It's going to take a lot of work, so anyone interested in helping either financially or through coding please contact me. mattcommark [ at ] yahoo.com

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 7:16 AM   in reply to mattcom

    This sounds great @mattcom.  I would be very interested.  I've been looking at Wowza - if we can simply replace the RTC components to interact with Wowza, that would save most of the time for developers. We could simply change the room URLs to point to another service and at least for whiteboarding, video, audio and chat, that could work.  Screen sharing is another beast.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 11:22 AM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    We are using the Screen sharing from LCCS but as soon as we discovered that Adobe will end it, we started developing our own. So maybe in a near future we will be able to provide it to anyone who needs.

     

    The good news is that, right now, we already provide our real-time technology to developers and corporations. We don't have pre-built components as LCCS does, but we do offer highly scalable real-time technology so you can build your own synchronized components or anything you want. It is easy to provision rooms / groups where members can send and receive real-time messages and synchronize changes and events.

    This technology can also be used to push notifications, realtime data, live dashboards, etc...

     

    We also offer live audio/video out-of-the-box so you can integrate a webconference to your app pretty quickly. It is low-latency and high quality audio and video.

     

     

    You can see our B2C product that uses our technology at http://www.pligus.com (please notice that it this product is running on a Brazilian server, videoconference quality will be much higher if we were to deploy near your customers).

     

    Those who are interested can contact me at contact@pligus.com I think we are an excelent alternative!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 12:21 PM   in reply to Gustavo Scanferla

    When you say you are creating your own screen sharing, I am wondering if this would involve some kind of 3rd party plug in, are you simply capturing the Flash Player's display and sending it across the wire (I have found this to be quite slow) or have you managed to leverage the "builtin" adobe plugin that LCCS activates?  I ask because for what I am doing, the first solution is not an option as most of my users do not have rights to install new software (while the current LCCS solution worked fine).  Thanks in advance!

     

    P.S.  Does anyone know if Adobe is monitoring this thread?  I have not seen them respond to much here and there are a lot of paying customers who are just looking for some kind of guidance.

     

    Message was edited by: philswe

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 12:55 PM   in reply to philswe

    Hi philswe,

     

    We are in a very early-stage of our screen sharing development. But I can say that, as of now, the users will have to install a plug in. You think that your users would have the rights to run a Java Applet instead?

     

    I didn't know it was possible to capture the Flash Player's display. How do you do that, it captures the entire desktop? Is the image quality good? You think that is possible to make it fast enough?

     

    And I guess it's not possible or legal to leverage the builtin adobe plugin, so we didn't even try this path.

    Adobe has heard it before but here it goes again: it would be great if the user's screen was available as a webcam is, so we could get and broadcast it ourselves.

     

    Thanks!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 1:04 PM   in reply to Gustavo Scanferla

    Not too sure about the Java Applet but these would be some very locked down corporate type PCs. 

     

    You can capture an image of the stage but not the desktop so that is pretty limited.  I messed around with it awhile back and the problem was one of compression.  To do effective screen streaming you need a codec that simply sends compressed differences in the images and key frames (as the webcam does) and I never got past sending 4 frames a second.  Also, there was no remote control.  In all, unusable.

     

    I was hoping that someone from Adobe would say, "Since we are cutting all you customers off, here is a way to leverage our built in technology".  Since they are leaving us out in the cold, I don't see what harm that could do.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 1:19 PM   in reply to amma-adobe

    I can't say what Adobe uses for cluster management and failover of FMS servers, but I don't think this forum is the place to coordinate an effort to rebuild this or other components of the LCCS platform. I don't believe components of LCCS can be plugged in piecemeal. It's a complex platform with some components that could be open sourced easily but other components that are either proprietary to Adobe(screen sharing), tied into internal Adobe systems(payments) or licensed from 3rd parties. Any effort to replace LCCS in it's entirety would require a lot of coordination, cooperation from Adobe engineers and time. The members of the LCCS team are the only people who are in a position to put some kind of an estimate on the full scale of this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 27, 2012 2:21 PM   in reply to Jeff Stanier

    Hi Jeff,

     

    The OpenTok platform may be able to help your customers as they transition out of LCCS. 

     

    TokBox, the company behind OpenTok, has been delivering live face-to-face video through the web since 2007.  We have helped American Idol, Coke and over 30,000 startups and websites bring the emotion of live video communication to their site or app. 

     

    Our cloud-based OpenTok API makes it easy for developers to add face-to-face video to their applications without having to worry about infrastructure and scale.  We offer JavaScript and ActionScript libraries as well as a new iOS SDK.  With OpenTok, developers can control size, interaction and layout to support a range of use-cases: 1-to-1 video conversations, broadcasts and multi-party video calls.

     

    http://www.tokbox.com/opentok/api/features

    http://www.tokbox.com/learnmore

     
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