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jmarquez85
Currently Being Moderated

QUICK OBSERVATIONS on PS CS6:

Mar 26, 2012 9:04 AM

1- The Curves Menu is uncomfortable due to a lack of contrast between points and lines. I would add off-white boxes rather than keeping the dark grays caled themed boxes. (aka it's hard to read)

 

2- When trying to over write a file I just saved, I tend to get weird error messages.

 

3- Camera RAW is MUCH better!

 

4- Content awareness tool is much faster and a slightly improved. The new tool is working as expected... Overall you my biggest complaint, apart from edges, is the inability to properly calculate for noise/sharpness sometimes. Nonetheless it is better though and I do find myself using it more often.

 

5- The Crop tool's movement feels a little weird, but maybe I need to use it more.

 

6- Wacom Brush Size/Hardness shortcut numbers are much appreciated and a great small add.

 

That's it for now!

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 26, 2012 9:41 AM   in reply to jmarquez85

    1) What Curves "menu" are you referring to?

     

    2) What error messages?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 11:39 AM   in reply to jmarquez85

    I've also Experienced this designissue with the Curves menu. The Contrast between the light grey histogram and the white line makes it hard to view the curve. I would suggest using or providing a option to use a black histogram so it is easyer to read.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to IrradiantArt

    I'll add to that as well. Give us the option to actually see comfortably.

     

    And while I am at it, I still do not like the lack of visibility of the brush point when using especially Clone. I hoped it would be fixed and it isn't.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,455 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 5:02 PM   in reply to jmarquez85

    It seems everyone is having trouble being explicit and accurate, here.

     

    • The "Curves menu" is literally only text:

      CurvesMenu.jpg

     

     

    • The term "regular curves window" is ambiguous.  Surely you don't mean the traditional dialog (in the same colors it has always been in) that opens when you select Image - Adjust - Curves?

      CurvesDialog.jpg

      I thought that maybe everyone is talking about the Curves control that's displayed in the now selectable theme in the Properties panel, but I'm not having any problem discerning the lines and points from the background myself - they seem nice and bright against the dark background.  Is this not what you're seeing?

       

      CurvesInPropertiesPanel.jpg

     

     

    • Adding a "me too" comment to something ambiguous lacks a certain strength as well (I remember you posted about this before, Lawrence, but I honestly don't recall the specifics).

     

     

     

    Could there be another "Curves" function beyond what I've shown above that really is hard to see?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 5:12 PM   in reply to jmarquez85

    Thanks for your feedback!

     

    We are happy to hear you like some of the improvements. (Camera RAW and Wacom stuff).

    The crop takes a while to get used to, but most people like it better once they use it for a while (they resist for a while and even use legacy settings, but eventually come around and like it).

     

    We will take a look at the contrast with UI and consider user suggestions for future versions.

     

    About error messages:

    When you get error messages, it is hard to debug what is going on if you don't attach a screen capture or the text that you receive along with the sequence of events that got you there. If you get the message again, please capture it and give us an update.

     

    Pattie

     

     

    from jmarquez:

     

    2- When trying to over write a file I just saved, I tend to get weird error messages.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 5:37 PM   in reply to jmarquez85

    6- Wacom Brush Size/Hardness shortcut numbers are much appreciated and a great small add.

     

    What does this refer to? (and yes I have an intuos 4 tablet)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 9:03 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Here is how my basic layout looks. The diagonal to the left of center is barely readable. I can use it but it slows me down, especially if I am attempting to pick a specific point in the darkness. It's like trying to find the restroom in a campground at midnight with no moon. The portion illuminated by the histogram works well as does the Image>Adjust>Curves box does.

     

    What mitigates it is that we now have a way to highlight a specific point in the image with the click and drag tool. That ultimately is the beast way to accurately find a particular value to tweak.

     

    My suggestion to Adobe is to lighten up the grid, perhaps make it sensitive to the surrounding values. It wouldn't take much. Notice how big I made the Curves box relative to the rest of the layout. That helps also.

     

    UI example.JPG

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 9:25 PM   in reply to Pattie F

    Pattie,

    The crop takes a while to get used to, but most people like it better once they use it for a while.....

     

    ..is pretty lame, imo. I don't particularly like all the additional steps I MUST do just to use the tool as a normal crop. It's placing the burden on the user to figure out how to work around something we have used with little concern in the past. It's clunky, it takes over and finally doesn't even let go once the crop is finished. So now, one more step to truly exit. But wait! There is a workaround to get back to normal. Select the Perspective Crop Tool and just don't bother to correct perspective. You give up the convenience of having the ratios picked for you, but it appears to be business as usual.

     
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  • Trevor Dennis
    5,826 posts
    May 24, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 10:17 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    I came across a situation with the crop tool today.  I had used it non destructively and come out of Crop.  I later wanted to adjust the position of the image within the frame, so hit the 'c' key, but was unable to move the image within the fram unless I first nudged a handle.  Is there a workaround?  I just tried it again, and I don't actually have to nudge a handle. Just click on one.  That's no hardship.   Is there a hot key though?

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,455 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 11:50 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Hudechrome wrote:

     

    Here is how my basic layout looks. The diagonal to the left of center is barely readable. I can use it but it slows me down, especially if I am attempting to pick a specific point in the darkness. It's like trying to find the restroom in a campground at midnight with no moon. The portion illuminated by the histogram works well as does the Image>Adjust>Curves box does.

     

     

    I'm really trying to understand things here, and nail the problem down, so please don't get frustrated.  We are entering into a territory where each of us is basing our comments on what we see, specifically, on our OWN monitors, and we may not be seeing the same things!

     

    Just as you have written it, I cannot find a "diagonal to the left of center" that is anything like "barely readable".  The only diagonal that I see left of center is the RGB luminance line that runs diagonally across the Curves control in the Properties panel, which I have identified with red arrows in the image just below.  And to me it's brilliant - anything but barely readable.

     

    But just to make absolutely sure we're on the same page here...  This is exactly what you're talking about, right?

     

    DiagonalHighlighted.png

     

    To reiterate, what I have identified with the red arrows above is NOT AT ALL difficult to see from where I sit.  It's absolutely brilliant against the dark background.

     

    So either we're SEEING two different things, or we're TALKING ABOUT two different things.

     

    If we're SEEING different things, our monitors must showing us quite different displays given the same pixel data, and there must be a response characteristic or calibration problem responsible for the difference.

     

    --

     

    Now, another big thing I *DO* notice, and keeping in mind you do a fair bit of black and white work, Lawrence, is a big difference between the histogram color itself in a grayscale image vs. that in an RGB image.

     

    DifferenceInHistogramColor.jpg

     

    Could it be you're talking about the difficulty in seeing the white diagonal line where it crosses in front of active histogram columns (white on light gray)?  I agree that there is too little difference there, and wonder why the histogram color isn't more like the RGB histogram color.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,455 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 10, 2012 11:49 PM   in reply to jmarquez85

    Do you find the diagonal line of pixels in this magnified view brighter / more easy to see?  If so, that could indicate monitor response issues.

     

    HistogramMagnfied.png

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 8:46 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    The answer is in this part of what I said:

     

    My suggestion to Adobe is to lighten up the grid,

     

    It's the relationship between the plot and the grid, and in this case, the plot is a straight line diagonal. In any case, I cannot see the grid well anywhere that it shows gray on gray for the grid, not the plot.

     

    There is no doubt that the presentation of the Curves using Image>Adjust is optimum. No squinting or guessing. Unfortunately it is also inelegant with respect to the CS6 UI, and elegance wins.

     

    Let's put it this way. If the plot represented an aircraft final approach ramp, which presentation would you want so as to know at a glance, the conditions necessary to make an informed judgement? Not the elegant one imo!

     

    I frequently set a curve using numbers such as Input 126, output 118 when burning down corners of an image. Much easier to move the cursor to 128/128 for starters using the Image>Adjust version.

     

    BTW, I noticed a problem running through this process which is to me a minor bug. I'll present it next.

     

    Message was edited by: Hudechrome

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,455 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 9:34 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Hudechrome wrote:

     

    There is no doubt that the presentation of the Curves using Image>Adjust is optimum.

     

    I'm thinking monitors, eyes, and personal preferences play a big part this.  I simply can't agree that the dark on light presentation is in any way "optimum".

     

    While I agree that the grid with the dark background is not much brighter than the background color, I personally don't feel that gets in the way of anything.  Just as it is, I don't have a problem seeing it and I find the light info on dark background motif MUCH closer to "optimum".

     

    For ultimate accuracy, use the input/output numbers and push the points around with the arrow keys. For touchy-feely results, look at the image while dragging with the mouse.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 9:57 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Referring to the image I included in Post #8, notice the tonal value/color of the Histogram palette above the Navigator image.

     

    Now notice the color here.

     

    I can get to the same presentation as in Post 8 by doing the following:

    1) Open a Gray Scale Image

    2) Add the Curves 1 Layer

    3) Convert it to RGB. Do not Flatten. Notice the gray-green shift in the Histogram.

    4) On the History Palette go back one step to Curves 1 Layer. Note the Histogram is now white and it stays white from that point on.

     

    If you start with an RGB, the greenish-gray Histogram  shows up with color spikes visible.  Converting to Gray Scale kills the green-gray and the color spikes presenting only white. Converting again from Grayscale to RGB shows the Histogram as all white, no colors at all. Then things got really complicated. I could no longer open an image from Bridge. Instead I found a really bizarre presentation of an earlier image tiled randomly. I quit Photoshop and Bridge, then attempted to re open Photoshop. It would not open. Checking Processes, I found several instances of Photoshop running. I killed them all then Photoshop opened fine.

     

    UI RGB.JPG

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 10:01 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Right, just add it to all the other stuff that slows down the work flow. Working with curves in any case is a slow, careful procedure, now it's really slow. Unfortunately, this seems to be the tenor of the times. Don't bother us, deal with it!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 10:02 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Just in case, here's system info:

     

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       Save for Web 13.0

       ScriptingSupport 13.0

       Shear 13.0

       Skewness 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Smart Blur 13.0

       Smudge Stick 13.0

       Solarize 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Spatter 13.0

       Spherize 13.0

       Sponge 13.0

       Sprayed Strokes 13.0

       Stained Glass 13.0

       Stamp 13.0

       Standard Deviation 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Sumi-e 13.0

       Summation 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Targa 13.0

       Texturizer 13.0

       Tiles 13.0

       Torn Edges 13.0

       Twirl 13.0

       U3D 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Underpainting 13.0

       Vanishing Point 13.0

       Variance 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Variations 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Water Paper 13.0

       Watercolor 13.0

       Wave 13.0

       Wavefront|OBJ 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       WIA Support 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       Wind 13.0

       Wireless Bitmap 13.0 (13.0 20120305.m.415 2012/03/05:21:00:00)

       ZigZag 13.0

     

    Optional and third party plug-ins: NONE

     

    Plug-ins that failed to load: NONE

    Flash:

       Mini Bridge

       Kuler

    Installed TWAIN devices: NONE

     
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  • Noel Carboni
    23,455 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 12:10 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    I can confirm there's something funky going on in the Histogram display.  It actually went black on me when I switched to grayscale in testing what you described.  Then when I went back to RGB it just stayed very light gray, without showing the three color channels  and how they fail to overlap.

     

    Update:  Note the value of the Channel: field in the Expanded View of the Histogram dialog.  Note that it's "Colors" when you open an RGB document and see the greenish-gray display, and "RGB" when you see the light gray display.  It really should go back to Colors.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 12:25 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Yeah, I just saw the black display myself and was prepared to post a triptych of three displays, confirming the blakc.

     

    I'll check the Expanded view.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 12:53 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Checked the Expanded View and I get the same. When going back to RGB in History, you do have the choice of Colors in the drop down. It is consistent because if you pick RGB instead of Colors from the drop down, the White RGB comes up.

     

    Also, try this. Open the drop down in Expanded View and turn off "Channels in Color". The black display now turns white and visa versa when reversing "Show Channels in Color".

     

    There is a method to their madness. Madness, I say! It is pure madness!

     

    Maybe I need to go back to my dark.... NAH!  I get funny smells on my hands, especially after handling onions, then fixer!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 1:33 PM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Hi Lawrence and Noel,

     

    I'm looking into this now. Thanks for digging around and reporting!

     

    regards,

    steve

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 1:43 PM   in reply to SG...

    Hey, great to hear, Steve! Thanks.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 11, 2012 1:56 PM   in reply to jmarquez85

    I just wanted to chime in and say I find the grayscale image version of the Properties panel version of the Curves editor a bit hard to read, too. The white curve plot is just too similar in luminance to the histogram to easily differentiate the two in the areas where they cross. The brighter histogram also increases the contrast between the histogram and the gridlines, too much for my taste. At that level, I think the grid lines start to become a bit distracting.

     

    I'd very much perfer if the panel used the same color scheme for grayscale images as it does for the luminance setting for RGB images (i.e. darker histogram). I'm testing this on a hardware-calibrated wide-gamut Eizo monitor, so I don't think the problem is a display issue.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 12, 2012 6:30 AM   in reply to Trevor Dennis

    To Trevor:  clicking Return key (mac) or Enter key (win) will make the crop modal.

    Or you can euse arrow keys to nudge the image under the crop box.

     

     

     

     

    I came across a situation with the crop tool today.  I had used it non destructively and come out of Crop.  I later wanted to adjust the position of the image within the frame, so hit the 'c' key, but was unable to move the image within the fram unless I first nudged a handle.  Is there a workaround?  I just tried it again, and I don't actually have to nudge a handle. Just click on one.  That's no hardship.   Is there a hot key though?

     
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