Skip navigation
Currently Being Moderated

Gamma 2.2 profile not usable for printing

Apr 13, 2012 9:27 AM

Tags: #gamma #cone #piezography

Hi.  I'm using the Cone Piezography black inks for my prints, and the usual process is to set the printer profile to gamma 2.2... except that under CS6, not all profiles are listed, and critically missing for me is gamma 2.2.  Suggestions? Work arounds? Any ideas as to how to edit a copy of the gamma 2.2 profile so as to make it appear in the list?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 13, 2012 10:52 AM   in reply to tvalleau

    Only the profiles applicable to your printer will be listed.

    If you are printing to an RGB printer, then only RGB profiles will be listed.

    If you are printing to a grayscale only printer, then only grayscale profiles will be listed.

     

    It sounds like you're trying to print to an RGB or CMYK printer, and attempting to use a grayscale profile.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 15, 2012 9:31 AM   in reply to tvalleau

    Chris,

     

    I want to add my two cents here....while Tvalleau may have found a work-around to address his specifc issue.  I also print with Cone all-black inks as so many thousands of people who are interested in this issue and may not yet be aware of the change you and the adobe team are releasing with CS/6.

     

    I understand that you and the development team have an enormously complex challenge in navigating multiple CM standards across apple, microsoft, epson, etc; however, this change of preventing all profiles from being shown on output colorspace conversion smacks of limiting user choice and workflow options in the name of "protecting" a class of users from doing something harmful to their images

     

    Adobe already has released and refined LIghtroom; a wonderful application that does many things "for the user" in the name of basic Color management automation and simplification.  Photoshop, however, has always been reserved for people who puruse their work with a maxium amount of control over their editing and workflow decisions.  By taking away this choice, you are harming an entire class of users who wan/need/rely upon maximum control over their imaging and workflow options.  PLEASE RECONSIDER.

     

    If you remember the color management debacle of CS/4 with Epson and Apple, the combined changes of all three companies cost hundreds of thousands of users tons of wasted ink, paper, and time simply to produce images the way they intended.  We all have some pain go  along with the continued "gain" as digital imaging evolves.  However, this time, I do not understand why you cannot simply allow users the ability to select any profile they want for output conversion when printing............don't protect us, ENABLE us.

     

    Chris, please help us understand this decision and let us know if you and the team will reconsider it.

     

    Thank you,

    George Pappas

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 15, 2012 9:32 AM   in reply to Chris Cox

    Chris, I want to make sure that you see this so I am sending directly to you.  Would like to hear your thoughts on this..Thanks, George

     

     

    Chris,

     

    I want to add my two cents here....while Tvalleau may have found a work-around to address his specifc issue.  I also print with Cone all-black inks as so many thousands of people who are interested in this issue and may not yet be aware of the change you and the adobe team are releasing with CS/6.

     

    I understand that you and the development team have an enormously complex challenge in navigating multiple CM standards across apple, microsoft, epson, etc; however, this change of preventing all profiles from being shown on output colorspace conversion smacks of limiting user choice and workflow options in the name of "protecting" a class of users from doing something harmful to their images

     

    Adobe already has released and refined LIghtroom; a wonderful application that does many things "for the user" in the name of basic Color management automation and simplification.  Photoshop, however, has always been reserved for people who puruse their work with a maxium amount of control over their editing and workflow decisions.  By taking away this choice, you are harming an entire class of users who wan/need/rely upon maximum control over their imaging and workflow options.  PLEASE RECONSIDER.

     

    If you remember the color management debacle of CS/4 with Epson and Apple, the combined changes of all three companies cost hundreds of thousands of users tons of wasted ink, paper, and time simply to produce images the way they intended.  We all have some pain go  along with the continued "gain" as digital imaging evolves.  However, this time, I do not understand why you cannot simply allow users the ability to select any profile they want for output conversion when printing............don't protect us, ENABLE us.

     

    Chris, please help us understand this decision and let us know if you and the team will reconsider it.

     

    Thank you,

    George Pappas

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 15, 2012 9:53 AM   in reply to georgecp

    I would like to add my support to this issue which is very adequately described by George. This is an issue for anyone using Piezography, Quadtone Rip, or anyone using the Precision Digital Negative method to print digital negatives for alternative processes. The Adobe Color Print Utility is a cumbersome alternative and does not provide the ability to change margins.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 3:58 AM   in reply to tvalleau

    tvalleau wrote:

     

    I thought this was the solution: using the regular gamma 2.2/ 8bit, etc as usual, change the printer dialog to "printer manages colors" and in the driver dialog (print settings), under Color matching, choose QuadToneRIP instead of Colorsync.

     

    I've just run off a test comparing that output to one I did the "standard" way using CS5, and they appear identical.

     

    But unfortunately, -everything- is identical: the curves supplied for the QTR papers have no effect whatsoever..

     

    I'll start by saying I haven't tried this process myself, as I do essentially no B&W work, but I'm always intrigued to learn new things.  And I do posess some knowlege of color management and share your three and  a half decades in computers as well.  I've even had some experience converting grayscale to color in my own applications (e.g., for display of a grayscale image on an RGB monitor).

     

    Specifically, you've chosen "printer manages colors" but are finding that the QuadToneRIP software is being bypassed.  No surprise, really, since QTR Is performing as the color-management engine and you've told Photoshop to bypass color-management.

     

    I guess the real question is what Ps CS5 actually DID when you specified a grayscale profile for printer output, and what CS6 DOES when no color management is specified, since apparently the printer is presenting itself as an RGB device regardless of your ink installation and QTR software...

     

    We probably need to assume that in both cases the grayscale values are just passed through unhindered as equal R, G, B values (i.e., a grayscale value of 67 ends up going out as (67, 67, 67)...

     

    So it really just sounds as if you need to find or craft a color profile that's the functional equivalent of the grayscale profile Gray Gamma 2.2.  Thus there WILL be a conversion from grayscale to color, but when the dust settles it will be just the conversion I've described here - where the values are just duplicated 3 times.  Such a profile, since it is a color profile, will end up in the list of applicable profiles for the printer, and voila - your data should be handed to QTR unscathed.  I suspect John Cone will be working on this.

     

    Are your grayscale files 16 bits/channel or 8?

     

    Have you tried just converting to another gamma 2.2 profile - say Adobe RGB 1998 - and then when printing choosing that profile?  That would accomplish the pass-through you desire.

     

    I realize that beyond being a pain this may not be a valid workaround since with 8 bits/channel file data you could end up with some posterization.  I haven't compared the Gray Gamma 2.2 curves against Adobe RGB 1998.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 6:59 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

     

    The passthrough you suggested does not work as the print dialog will not display AdobeRGB 1998 as a printer profile.  I didn't think it would work, but I've just confirmed this by trying it myself.  From what Chris has stated and from what we're seeing, it seems as though Adobe is completely cutting out the no color management workthrough altogether and trying to force users to use ACPU.  Unfortunately that software is buggy.

     

    -Nick

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 7:11 AM   in reply to tvalleau

    I don't know if this is of any help, but... I at one time used QTR for 2200 B&W prints and the profiles are still on my computer. I tried the
    following and was able to pull up all the installed profiles for QTR and the preview reflected the appropriate changes. Note, I did not do any

    printing as I no longer use the 2200 for B&W.

    1) choose Photoshop Manages Color (yes, counterintuative)

    2) choose QTR-RGB Lab, QTR_RGB_Matte_Paper, or QTR_RGB_Photo_Paper for the Printer Profile

    3) choose your QTR Printer ie Quad2200 and paper size

    4) under printer dropdowns choose Color Matching (both color sync and vendor matching are now grayed out)

    5) under Color Matching dropdown choose QuadToneRip

    All the normal QuadTone printer format and profiles now appears. As stated, I did not do an actual print but

    when I did a preview, it did indeed seem to reflect the profiles and all appeared as the old QTR. Please

    let us know if this works and how it might apply to the Cone profiles/system as this is rather important

    to all of us that print B&W.

     

    asu_chic

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 7:33 AM   in reply to nmenghardt

    nmenghardt wrote:

     

     

    The passthrough you suggested does not work as the print dialog will not display AdobeRGB 1998 as a printer profile.

     

    What profiles DO show up in that condition then?

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 8:10 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

    I see what is being said and it appears that only print profiles are now available, gamma, display and colorspace profiles are not an option.

    I do see that my copy of Eric Chan's GrayGamma22Print profile is an option since it is a print profile. All other gamma profiles are no longer

    available.

     

    asu_chic

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 8:33 AM   in reply to asu_chic

    So if I understant you correctly, Eric Chan may have produced a profile such as what I described above, and it's available to you when printing? 

     

    What happens when you print to it?  Does the QTR work?

     

    Is it available to you when printing a grayscale image?

     

    Is this profile well-known among the Piezography community?  Did Eric publish it publicly?  If not can you share it?

     

    I'm just making obvious common-sense connections here, since it seems there has been a disconnect somewhere.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:00 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

    As I indicated previously I no longer print B&W from the 2200 so I have not tried this on QTR printing. The profile was created

    by Eric back when the 3800 first came out and was used for AWB printing and is very effective. Eric now creates his profiles without

    this workaround however, I still have the profile and still use it for all AWB printing as it is dead on as far as I can tell. I just covert my

    PS file to GreyGamma22print as part of my BW work flow.  Let me search on my drives and see if I can find the actual download. I

    don't think it is on Eric's site any longer as he later by passed this step in his work flow. It does create a 2.2 gamma print profile however

    and may just be what you are looking for as it does show up as a print option in the CS6Beta. I'll report back as soon as I know if I still

    have the download. Also, as I stated in a prior post, using the QTR lab, matte or photo print profile also grays out both the sync and

    the vendor printer profiles. Has anyone had the chance to see if this is perhaps turning  off the color management???

     

    asu_chic

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:34 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

    I have a zip for the GrayGamma22print file but cannot see a way to attach here. Please advise.

    As an additional note, if I recall, Eric was using this to convert files for use in QDR right before

    the AWB came about so it may be something you can use.

     

    asu_chic

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:44 AM   in reply to asu_chic

    If you want to eMail it to me at NCarboni@ProDigitalSoftware.com, I can host it and post the link here so that others can try it.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:54 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel,

    It's on it's way.

    Thanks,

     

    asu_chic

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 9:58 AM   in reply to asu_chic

    Thanks.  For those who would like to try to see if this profile will enable printing with color management through QTR, here's a link to the above-mentioned profile:

     

    http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/GrayGamma22Print.icc.zip

     

    On a Windows system, copy the file to C:\Windows\system32\spool\drivers\color and restart Photoshop to test.

     

    Good luck!

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 11:41 AM   in reply to tvalleau

    Jon Cone has posted to piezography.com instructions for printing with piezography and QTR - http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/blog/piezography-technical/photo shop-cs6-betamac/

     

    1. You should continue to work in a grayscale Gamma of 2.20 because this is the interpreted response that Piezography produces when used with the Piezography K7 profiles.
    2. Before printing, convert your image to sRGB or Adobe RGB 1998 as both of these use an internal Gamma of 2.20. Leave as a grayscale and do not adjust the color.
    3. Printing from CS6, select Photoshop Manages Colors and select the Adobe Wide Gamut profile from the Profiles menu. This will allow Color Management to take place although it will not affect the rgb Grayscale because Adobe Wide Gamut also uses an internal Gamma of 2.20.
    4. Print through QTR as usual…
     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:28 PM   in reply to nmenghardt

    Cool!  That's pretty much what I said in post 9, though he's chosen a different Adobe profile.

     

    I would be interested to know whether this could lead to posterization, though, when printing 8 bits/channel grayscale images...  You might want to try printing some perfect gradients and see if you can see any banding.

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 12:32 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Right, but I figured get the word out from The Man.

     

    I will run some tests with CS5 and CS6beta as soon as the lab is no longer in use by classes and update this post.

     

    -Nick

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 2:09 PM   in reply to tvalleau

    If you assign the profile to sRGB in Photoshop then execute print, the document profile is sRGB IEC61966-2.1. If you also select this as the printer profile, you get a warning message that says "No color management is not supported". Hit cancel and it lets you print using that profile in spite of the warning. The result using this technique looks the same as that printed in CS5.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Noel Carboni
    23,528 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 16, 2012 2:22 PM   in reply to Alan Vlach

    Has anyone tried just printing the grayscale document using the profile asu_chic provided?

     

    -Noel

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points