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Richard_M_1999
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Dumb newbie color question.

Apr 19, 2012 8:42 AM

Tags: #photoshop_cs4_windows #canon_pro9000_mkii #color_balance

I have Photoshop CS4 64-bit running under Windows 7.  I recently bought a Canon Pro9000 MkII printer, and I got a pack of Canon Fine Art Museum Etching paper.  I followed the printing instructions described here to produce my first prints.  The Canon print driver includes an option to "preview" the image prior to committing it to (expensive) paper.  On the "preview" image, the color balance is waaay different to what I see on my Dell 22" (cheap) flat-screen monitor when editing the image in Photoshop.  The color balance on the subsequent printed image is closer to what I see on the preview image than when editing the image in Photoshop.  How do I address this?  I am a TOTAL dumb newbie, and I need somebody to answer this in words of one syllable....

 

Thanks in advance!...

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 8:46 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Your screen may not be calibrated so what you see is not what you get.

     

    You can buy a screen calibration device.  At the minimium look on the web for color checkers and see what you colors look like with these programs.

     
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    Apr 19, 2012 9:40 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Have you used the preview on printer for other printing?  If so how does it compare to preview or to PS?

     

    Do you have the box checked to allow PS to set color or printer to set color?

     

    Being thrifty, I would do the same paper setup with cheap paper and see what it looks like with a test print.  That way you can see what to believe.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 9:46 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    EveryOtherScreenNameIsTak wrote:

     

    I thought about that.  But (1) if the screen calibration was the problem, then wouldn't the "print preview" image would look the same as the image in Photoshop?

    It depends on how the software displaying the preview and Photoshop are set to color manage the document. I'm not familiar with printer driver preview software as I don't use much desktop color printers but you have to make sure that if it is a color managed software it is set to display images in the same way as Photoshop. Basically this works by applying a color profile to the image or displaying the image with the same color space (profile) that describes the appearance of the colors so each device can interpret them as intended. But even after you synch different programs to match on your screen - if your screen doesn't display the colors correctly, you still may have different colors on the print.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 12:01 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Photoshop (Ps) is always displaying through a Source> Monitor profile Conversion (it reads an embedded profile and Converts it to the monitor profile)

     

    "Photoshop Manages Color" workflow is supposed to work the same way (Source> Print profile) Ps reads an embedded profile and Converts it to the printer profile

     

    remember: Ps can display the image correctly regardless of how right or wrong the printer is set up and VICE VERSA...

     

    i would first look at, Ps File> Print dialog (post a screenshot of this window) be sure to capture your working settings especially Printer Profile

     

    THAT WILL LIKELY NAIL THE PROBLEM (you cannot select a specific printer-paper-ink profile), but per your link, also include these two screenshots:

     

    Picture 1.png

    source: www.imaging-resource.com/PRINT/CP9KII/PRO9K2.HTM

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 12:09 PM   in reply to gator soup

    PS;

     

    if you are actually able to select your SPECIFIC printer/paper/ink ICC profile for the paper you are using

     

    try "soft proofing" the profile in Ps

     

    View> Proof Setup> Custom> Device to Simulate: your specific print profile (the one you are using in Ps File> Print> Printer Profile)

     

    at that point the soft proof should look very similar to what the printer is printing (or something else is going on)...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 12:59 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    You want either Photoshop or the printer to handle the color management. But NOT both or the colors will look terrible.

     

    You said:

    .. in the Canon's printer driver settings, there is a box that says

    "Disable the color profile setting of the application software" and I leave

    that box unchecked

     

    Is this the exact wording? Because if you have Photoshop handle the color management you need to turn OFF color management somewhere in the Canon printer driver.

     

    For a test, check the box you mentioned in the Canon printer driver while leaving selected "Photoshop manages color" in the Photoshop print dialog.

    Does it print better?

     

    In the link you provided, the Color Correction option in the Canon printer driver should be set to none.

    While the screenshots and options will vary with differents operating systems and different printer drivers.

    There should be some way to disable color management or (correction) in the printer driver.

     

    Try all the different tabs

     

    ishot-3.jpg

    Printer Driver. Also make sure you have no Color Correction set in your Color Options. You don't want the printer adjusting color after the ICC profile has done it.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------

     

    If you are still having problems, try turning off "Photoshop manages color" in the Photoshop print dialog and just have the Canon Print Driver handle the Color Management.

    Some people have found this works better for them with their specific model of printer & paper combination.

     

    Just remember to only have one or the other handle color management, but never use double color management.

    Generally its better to have Photoshop manage color but whatever works best for you should be the way to go.

     

    Good Luck!

     

    I see Gator Soup beat me to it. Message was edited by: Bo LeBeau

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 4:19 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    The question is which stage of the file the Print Preview window is using. Make sure it is not using the Adobe RGB stage of the file. The Print Preview window should be using the image after it was converted from Adobe RGB to the printer profile color space. I can't figure that out from all you posted.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 4:57 PM   in reply to emil emil

    emil emil wrote:

     

    The question is which stage of the file the Print Preview window is using...

     

    amen, too much info, but some points (i recommend):

     

    setting your Ps Edit> Color Settings>  Color Management Polices like this

     

    Picture 1.png

     

    leave your Source Document as is (you don't need to Convert it to your print profile - that is done in the File> Print utility)

     

    Ps File> Print

     

    your Print Profile looks like it may be a SPECIFIC profile for your paper (good) can you click on the popup menu and screenshot or type out its entire name?

     

    Picture 2.png

     

    your Quick Setup> Media Type looks correct

     

    HOWEVER the most important is missing -- I don't see your Color Options where your link sets Color Corrections: NONE

     

    Where is that screenshot???

     

    Once you get that set to "none" you should be good to go...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 5:40 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    you probably need to log in for the forum option

     

    if you are using Ps File> Print, Photoshop Manages Colors

    you will need to select your SPECIFIC Printer Profile there

    then None in your OS or Canon settings

     

    at that point it should be working

     

    how does it look in View> Proof Setup (as previously outlined)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 6:24 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Richard_M_1999 wrote:...

     

    At this point I don't know how to find the answer to your question.

    ...

    this information is for which image?

    http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/2-4348046-185918/Source+Space+1.JPG

    We need this information for both images you showed us - in Photoshop and the Printer preview.

    Did you save the file after converting it to the printer's color space? Is the printer preview using that file?

    We need to see how an image looks like in the printer's color space in Photoshop.

    If you are working in AdobeRGB color space and soft proof with the printer color space, but don't convert to it at any stage of the workflow to your printer's color space, then your soft proof is invalid. By default Soft proof shows how your colors will look after the conversion. One of the images in your earlier post shows the conversion dialog apparently after converting the file to the color space of the printer. If you have done so you don't need printer soft proof anymore because the file is already in the printer's color space. The question that remains is if the printer preview is actually using the image that is already converted to the printer's color space. How do you make the printer preview displays an image? Do you open a file for it?

    Does that imply that it uses the printer profile color

    space?....

    No, if the image displayed in Photoshop you posted earlier is in the printers color space and this is what I'm asking you to find out. When the image is displayed in Photoshop, what color space does it say here:

    http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/2-4348046-185918/Source+Space+1.JPG

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 8:15 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    just for grins, try opening your original file (adobe RGB profile embedded) not the one you converted to your printer profile

     

    then run your tests...

     

    +++++++

     

    when you open files now in Ps with the new Color Management Policies, always Use the Embedded Profile (if there is one)

     

    or if the file is Untagged (Does Not Contain an Embedded Profile), Assign the profile that looks best

     

    never Discard the Embedded Profile

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 10:30 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    So, the print preview simply picks the image from the open file in its current state in Photoshop and makes a preview of it.This will not be able to detect any soft proof so the question remaining is if it does any color management. To check this, in Photoshop chose View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB. Then if the image in Photoshop matches the Printer Preview this means that the Printer Preview is not affected by color management and as such is not reliable. I don't see any color matching controls in the screens of your print  properties. In your post #17 there is a screen capture and on it there is another tab with the name Matching. May be it is there, can you please check it and if it is about color management, please, show it to us.

    If you send the file as Adobe RGB you have to rely on your printer to make the conversion. When you are converting from one color space to another, especially from a wider color space to a narrower, you will see a change of colors that cannot be avoided and you have some options like rendering intents in the conversion controls. So far I don't see anything that you showed from your printer controls to be of that nature.

     

    Generally to make the image on screen match as closely as possible your printer, you have to have a monitor profile in your system that describes correctly how your monitor displays colors, this is best achieved with a color measuring device. Then you have to have a printer profile - the one with your specific paper that describes correctly how colors are printed on that paper. Without these two conditions, you have to hope for a lucky shot or use the printed result (not the monitor) as the only reference about what you are doing with the colors of your image in Photoshop.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 19, 2012 10:48 PM   in reply to gator soup

    gator soup wrote:

     

    just for grins, try opening your original file (adobe RGB profile embedded) not the one you converted to your printer profile

     

    then run your tests...

    This will give a good result if the image is a photo taken with a camera and saved in a format like jpg where the tone mapping, color correction, and profile embedding is all done by the camera's built in software's algorithm. When you send such image straight to the printer with printer managing the colors, and disregard how the image looks on the monitor, the result should be pretty good if the photo was captured nicely with the camera. On the other hand If any color edits are done refering to a monitor that doesn't have a color profile that describes correctly how it displays color then everything is taking a wild guess.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2012 7:42 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    #11 notes the Source Profile as a Canon profile (not the Adobe RGB profile i suggested) -- not sure what results you are talking about -- looks like you found the Color Correction: NONE setting, still appears set to Canon correction -- try setting it to None to rule out double profiling issues

     

    >> the differences between what I see in Photoshop and what I see in then Print Preview window.  It seems to me that my objective is to get the print preview window to show a very similar image to what I see in Photoshop

     

    are you even printing the image? -- in the past Print Preview is unreliable for color, use it to check position only

     

    lastly, again, a Ps Soft Proof (Adobe RGB source to Printer Profile destination) should not display the problem (if it does the profile is bad or something else is going on)...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2012 8:40 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Richard_M_1999 wrote:

    ...

    here is is...

    The options available in the Color Mode drop-down box are Standard and Linear Mode.

     

    Your printer properties doesn't give you any color matching conversion controls.

    Richard_M_1999 wrote:

    ...

     

    I get what you are saying.  But that surely doesn't account for the differences between what I see in Photoshop and what I see in then Print Preview window.  It seems to me that my objective is to get the print preview window to show a very similar image to what I see in Photoshop.  At that point, the differences bewteen what I see on the screen and what I see on the final print would be down to the inadequacies of the monitor's set-up, assuming I have specified the correct ICC for the printer/paper combo.  Does that make sense to you?

    You can't match a color managed image with a non - color managed image and the whole point of all my questions here was to find out if your print preview can be color managed or if it is simply a dumb non-color managed display of the color values directly sent to your video card (monitor) without any color management. From the screen shot of your last post it is obvious that your print properties don't give you any color space assignment and conversions and I already gave you instructions in my previous post how to find out if the preview is directly displayed on your monitor without any color management corrections

    emil emil wrote:

    ... so the question remaining is if it does any color management. To check this, in Photoshop chose View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB. Then if the image in Photoshop matches the Printer Preview this means that the Printer Preview is not affected by color management and as such is not reliable.

     

    My guess so far is that the purpose of that print preview is simply to show you what image are you are about to print without any ambition to show you the correct colors.

    ...

    emil emil wrote:

     

    This will give a good result if the image is a photo taken with a camera and saved in a format like jpg where the tone mapping, color correction, and profile embedding is all done by the camera's built in software's algorithm.  When you send such image straight to the printer with printer managing the colors, and disregard how the image looks on the monitor, the result should be pretty good if the photo was captured nicely with the camera. On the other hand If any color edits are done referring to a monitor that doesn't have a color profile that describes correctly how it displays color then everything is taking a wild guess.

    I take your point.  FYI, all my pictures are taken on an Olympus E-510 in Olympus Raw format, loaded into Photoshope using Adobe Camera Raw.  I did very little raw processing - on the image I used for this series of posts I just boosted the "Clarity" setting.  In Photoshop I re-sized and cropped the image to 12"x18" at 600DPI for printing.  I also used Nik Sharpener Pro to sharpen the re-sized image.  There was no other processing done in Photoshop for this exercise.  In other words, I have not used Photoshop to adjust any of the color balance, and what I get should be pretty much what came out of the camera.  I mention all this for full discosure purposes - not sure if any of it has any bearing on the issue at hand.

    If the image is captured nicely and the default tone mapping of the camera is preserved in the Raw file in the same way it is when say saved to jpg using the camera, then you most likely will get a nice looking image, but if you monitor is not displaying colors correctly the printed image may have nothing to do with how the images is displayed not only in the non- color managed programs but in the coor managed too. So, you may be better off to use your camera's viewfinder or its LCD screen for more reliable feedback of your photographs.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2012 10:51 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Richard_M_1999 wrote:

     

    ...I have now changed that to Printer manages colors...Now the differences are quite small.

     

    What do you think all this means?

     

    Printer Manages Colors work flow is usually how these Canon printer threads end up

     

    i had hopes of not having to go that route because the Canon driver appeared to be able to select a specific print profile for your paper, and None Canon color managemnt -- that should have made Photoshop Manages Colors work

     

    but i guess that means you are back to work...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2012 11:20 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    I thought it was obvious that you should choose printer manages colors in the case you rely on a nice image coming straight from the camera regardless how the monitor displays it.

     

    Regarding your question, I can't make any conclusions that can be used for your future prints because it is still very unclear what exactly you have done and what has happened there. It is not clear what was the displayed color space of the image when printed. It is also still not clear if the print preview is color managed or not and you haven't tested that yet as I suggested. From all the things you showed so far, the print preview changed only when you converted the color values of the image which is to be expected. When you say in your last post that the printer preview matched to the Photoshop image, it is not clear if the preview changed while using the same color values of the image or because the color values were changed.  If the print preview changed just because you chose printer manages colors without doing anything else this could mean that the print preview is using different color values after the printer's internal color management conversion and does not necessarily mean that it is color managed at all. And after all it is not clear if you made and compare between different prints made with printer manages colors and Photoshop manages colors.

     

    So, at this point I can't recommend anything based on certainty but if you remember what were the exact steps you made to get a print that you like, to try it again and see if all images will be good.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 20, 2012 4:55 PM   in reply to emil emil

    The OP never said his monitor was properly calibrated.

     
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    Apr 20, 2012 6:17 PM   in reply to Lundberg02

    Yes, I think everyone here is aware of this, but we were trying to find out if his Print Preview from the printer software uses any color management or not and if it can be a reliable feedback in case the monitor was calibrated.

     
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    Apr 20, 2012 10:37 PM   in reply to emil emil

    OK, but if you don't start from square one, everyone  rotates in free space. The first post in response to someone who clearly has no clue should be to outline the steps to achieve a trusted system.

     
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    Apr 21, 2012 5:01 AM   in reply to Lundberg02

    I know it is a long thread to read but what you recommend was done in the first reply to the OP by Kurt. I also mentioned that more than once in my replies but the problem we were trying to solve is what the OP asked in post #2. Long story short, the question was why the image in Photoshop doesn't match an image in another software on the same monitor. The possibilities are that the other software does not color manage or it is set to color mange the image differently and that's what we were trying to find out but the OP didn't provide enough information for this.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 21, 2012 10:10 AM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Richard_M_1999, I use an epson pro 9900 printer. I also get strange looking print previews (in the epson window) when using photoshop to manage the color, to be honest as the prints come out spot on so I just use the print preview to check the sizing rather than color because of this. If your problem is that you prints look weird too, then as others have said I suspect you have both photoshop and the printer software trying to manage the color.If you want to use photoshop to manage the color you have to disable the color managent in the printer software, the best candidate for this is "Disable the color profile setting of the application software".

    8498498.JPG

    Or as you have discovered just use the printer to manage the color.

    I guess the point Im trying to make is dont get hung up on what the print preview looks like,its what the print looks like that counts. I spent quite a while going round in circles trying to solve a similar problem that whilst annoying doesnt really matter as long as you are getting decent prints.

     
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    Apr 21, 2012 2:28 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Can you explain why you don't calibrate your monitor so that you will have a known reference?

    It is unbelievable that you would start and continue this utterly pointless thread without a calbrated display.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 21, 2012 2:54 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    try downloading a copy of the PDI WHACKED RGB jpeg

     

    in addition to giving you a known good reference file that will help you determine how okay your uncalibrated monitor is (if you have an eye for color balance) — it is in a bizzare color space that will make it obvious if your settings are broken...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 21, 2012 3:57 PM   in reply to Richard_M_1999

    Richard, please try this, open the image in Photoshop, from the View menu choose Proof Setup and from its submenu choose Monitor RGB. Then open the Print Preview after making sure that  "Photoshop manages colors" is selected and tell if there is a difference between Photoshop and the Print Preview.

    Also try this, first remove the Monitor RGB soft proof by making sure that there is no checkmark in front of Proof Colors from the View Menu and on the title bar of  your document doesn't say Monitor RGB, then from the  Edit menu, choose Assign Profile and try the various different profiles there. Then again after changing to each profile compare how the Print Preview is affected in both conditions when "Photoshop manages colors" and when "Printer manages colors", and please report the result.

     

    From everything reported so far, I guess that the print preview does not show color managed image when "Photoshop manages colors" is selected. It simply sends the color values uncorrected to your monitor which Photoshop will display in the same way if you soft proof with Monitor RGB as I suggested above. In that case the printer preview is not meant to be used reliably because you have chosen to rely on Photoshop. When you select "Printer manages colors" the Printer software most likely converts the color values from the color space of the image as indicated by the color profile to the destination profile in the same way like Photoshop does and displays the print preview with the converted values.

     

    If you report what I asked you to check above then we will know if what I'm guessing is right or wrong.

     

    Regarding how I, and for that mater anyone else, see your images I can assure you that everyone with any monitor calibrated or not  will see that the print preview image is more saturated but if the used monitors are not calibrated this won't help with finding out how everyone actually see the colors. And to repeat one more time, with uncalibrated  monitor without correct color profile successful printing is either a lucky shot or a result of using the printed colors as a reference of what the image in Photoshop represent.

     
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