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Evan_Kafka
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Lightroom 4.1 RC and Canon 5d Mark III Cropping Info/ratio bug

Apr 18, 2012 7:00 AM

Today I imported RAW images I shot on the Canon 5d3 with the camera set to Add Cropping Information set to 4:5 ratio.  Crop lines are displayed on the camera LCD but you see the full frame outside of the crop when review files.  Alarmingly, when I imported them to LR 4.1 RC, the images appeared cropped to 4:5.  I though ok, I'll just go to the crop tool and I will see that a crop has been applied and I'll remove it. Unfortunately, there was no file beyond the crop lines, it could not be removed as far as I could tell.  I called Canon and they told me to try Digital Photo Professional, a program that I never pay attention to.  Sure enough, the images were intact when viewed there.  There appears to be a bug when LR 4.1 RC encounters the crop tag on the raw file.  I have posted this on the Adobe Forums. I am running OS X 10.6.8 on a Mac Pro.

 
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    Apr 22, 2012 3:46 PM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    I have noticed the exact same thing. Potentially very dangerous. I could not get the 'crop' removed even in DPP, yet when I look at the preview image on the desktop (not in Lightroom) the information outside the crop is included. So it's obviously there, yet how to get Lightroom to read it and not apply the unwanted crop (which was for visual reference on the camera while shooting only)....

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 3:27 AM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    The same thing happened to me and I was alarmed as well. Thank goodness they were family photos and not a job. I did manage to release the crop in DPP, though I can't begin to tell you how. I don't know that software at all, and I'm not interested in beginning.

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 4:34 PM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    This is as-designed behavior.

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 6:56 PM   in reply to Lee Jay

    To clarify:

    If I use a 1:1 crop on the 5diii to frame a photo and import to LR 4.1, is the rest of the raw image gone as far as LR is concerned? Can I not change my mind and get back my 2:3 image without going into canon's software?

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 7:23 PM   in reply to E Oren

    E Oren wrote:

     

    To clarify:

    If I use a 1:1 crop on the 5diii to frame a photo and import to LR 4.1, is the rest of the raw image gone as far as LR is concerned? Can I not change my mind and get back my 2:3 image without going into canon's software?

     

    Currently, that is the case.

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 7:27 PM   in reply to Lee Jay

    Thanks for the quick reply Lee but I have to admit to being disappointed with this decision/limitation. Is there no way for LR to simply use the camera's crop info in the exit file and transpose that to the built in crop tool?  I admit to knowing nothing about how the canon stores this information or what LR is capable of reading and transposing but this would be a much better implementation if it was possible.

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 7:31 PM   in reply to E Oren

    At the moment, that functionality isn't available in LR.  The image data should be available in the file if DPP is finding it, so hope springs eternal for the future.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 3:57 PM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    Well I just got screwed by this today.    The CR2 have already been deleted after conversion to DNG, and now I discover that Lightroom has distructively edited the RAW files without any confirmation.  Apparently I can't get the original image content back, and the client is waiting for her now-ruined photos.  Brilliant.

     

    Adobe, make fixing this a priority please!

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 4:07 PM   in reply to FlightDeck

    I thought it wasn't possible to alter RAW files?

    This is really worrying, how did it manage to alter them?

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 4:34 PM   in reply to howmanypigginnamesdoitry

    Sorry, I was sloppy with my terms.  In my case I have already made DNG files from the RAW files, and then deleted the RAW files.  When importing the DNG files into Lightroom (3.6), it automatically applies the camera's aspect ratio setting as a hard crop to the image, with no way to undo it nor access the original full image from within Lightroom.  So in effect, LR is throwing away portions of the images with no way to retrieve it from within LR. 

     

    Luckily however, it appears that the missing edges of the images are still in the file, even DNG.  I am currently experimenting with this LR plugin:

    http://tim.jagenberg.info/projects/deaspect/

    to try to recover the full aspect ratio of the original file.  I have just now tested it on one of the DNG files, and it appears to restore the full image size with LR, so it appears there's hope.

     

    Unfortunately I have already Photoshop retouched 4 of the images, so piecing together the recovered edges of the image with the portion already processed is going to be interesting. 

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 5:34 PM   in reply to FlightDeck

    Which exact Lightroom version are you using? I had an idea this was fixed in Lr4.1 but maybe not.

    Check in System Info under Help in Lightroom for the version and build number and post here please.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 5:48 PM   in reply to Geoff the kiwi

    3.6 as mentioned.

     

    From what I've read it also exists in 4.1, as Adobe has commented that this "functions as intended".  My gripe is with the misguided intent (in my humble opinion).

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 5:52 PM   in reply to FlightDeck

    There is also the DNG Recover Edges utility - that might work also, especially if the images are already DNG. This will reveal areas that the camera does not even show. But it's a good thing to have this inside LR if possible.

     

    There are still some undeveloped possibilities with cropping. Access to Raw edge data via a nondestructive default crop frame.would be great, as already mentioned.

     

    Also it would be good to be able to include crop in a preset. (This one is a little dangerous, maybe it should default to off even when you click "check all" while defining the preset.)

     

    How about crop-only snapshots which otherwise leave Develop settings alone. Or crop-only VCs which otherwise auto-sync any change made to the version they are derived from.

     

    Or, what if instead of one crop we had three - default, optional print override, optional web override - and could select which one was to be used. No need to sync Develop settings between differently cropped VCs, you'd just have one multi-talented image. Too complex?

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:59 PM   in reply to richardplondon

    Adobe should add an Sensor or Available option to the available Crop list and keep the Original item as what the camera specifies.

     
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    Aug 7, 2012 6:06 AM   in reply to ssprengel

    ssprengel wrote:

     

    Adobe should add an Sensor or Available option to the available Crop list and keep the Original item as what the camera specifies.

    I agree, something of this kind.

     

    Another recent thread asked how to disable "silent" lens correction, too - so perhaps this aspect crop issue, could be covered in a more general "disregard all camera parameters" checkbox.

     
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    Aug 7, 2012 6:34 AM   in reply to richardplondon

    From the length of time it took Adobe to support some cameras where you cannot turn off lens correction, I think Adobe may have contractually agreed to not allow turning off lens correction for particular cameras in exchange for cooperation from the manufacturer in rendering the files.  Presumably such a contract would benefit the manufacturer by hiding how poor its lenses really are.  It’s also possible that this inability to turn off lens corrections for certain cameras is a self-imposed restriction so no one thinks Adobe’s rendering is poor.

     
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    Aug 8, 2012 3:10 PM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    This is super dissapointing. Needs to be fixed so that I can use the crop lines and still access all the image information available.

     
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    Aug 15, 2012 3:17 PM   in reply to FlightDeck

    Just an update...  I was able to use the De-aspect Lightroom plugin to restore the full image size for my DNG files.  The plugin creates a copy of each DNG file, with the name "{originalname}.deaspect.dng".  The copy has all the same metadata as the original, *except* the pick/reject flag settings.  Whups.  But star ratings, colour coding, etc., are all okay.  I then deleted the original DNG files from both LR catalogue and disk, and then used the LR rename function to remove the "despect" from the filenames.  After the conversion the files initially look messed up, displaying with a distorted aspect ratio, but it's just the preview.  After viewing an image at 1:1, the preview is updated and everything is fine.

     

    Since the plugin creates a copy of the DNG file, be aware that it takes a while to run on a large number of files, and make sure you have enough disk space available.

     

    Not ideal, but for those of us who got caught unexpectedly by this, this is a way to recover things.

     
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    Aug 16, 2012 5:28 AM   in reply to FlightDeck

    Just a thought. There is a LR plugin called LensTagger which works by modifying EXIF externally - specifically, so that LR can re-read metadata from files which has been suitably altered. This is done to insert lens details that would not otherwise get recognised automatically. The user will have first ensured current LR data has been written to the file, and has to execute the read-back-in aftwerward. But perhaps one could include the de-aspect commands also - by pasting them into the manual-edit window of this plugin - or else, just follow the same general method.

     

    So the overall sequence could perhaps be made a rather simpler one (after first separately backing-up the image files for safety; something that should be happening anyway in due course):

    • write current LR metadata to file
    • alter external metadata with exiftool
    • read LR metadata from file

     

    and in the case of a virtual copy: switch copy-to-master, carry out the above, then switch copy-to-master back the other way and optionally re-write the metadata out.

     

    This has the advantage that the image does not need to become DNG, assuming it is not DNG already (and that you want to keep it that way). One little wrinkle with the LensTagger method: you have to remind it to work on the separate .XMP sidecar file instead of the original raw file, as appropriate.

     
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    Aug 16, 2012 9:20 AM   in reply to richardplondon

    Richard this sounds like what the De-aspect plugin already does:

    http://tim.jagenberg.info/projects/deaspect/

     

    Also it's not limited to DNG, mine just happened to be DNG. The plugin is powered by the Exiftool, so as long as the file type in LR is compatible with Exiftool, it should run okay. Here are the supported types:

    http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/

     

    I recommend giving the De-aspect plugin a try before developing a new method.

     
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    Aug 16, 2012 9:49 AM   in reply to FlightDeck

    I have nothing at all against the De-aspect plugin, which I have looked into with interest. I learnt this hard lesson about aspect ratios some time ago [when such software tools were not yet thought of - my LX1 compact has a very tempting aspect ratio switch]. I have trained myself to just leave that aspect alone (grin). So I personally would have little use for it in practice.

     

    My only reason for offering the alternative I did, was in view of comments about temporary impact on disk space and time taken, also the potential need to rename the new file, and otherwise clean up, after the De-aspect method has happened.

     

    The alternative described modifies the existing Raw file in-place, and then updates the existing LR image version in-place, so there should be no need for any such cleanup.

     

    Also if one is already fixing lens data, the de-aspect can maybe be done at the same time "for free".

     

    [My comment about the image becoming DNG was really referring back to the DNG Recover Edges utility I mentioned previously in this thread - which does require that.]

     
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    Aug 16, 2012 5:03 PM   in reply to richardplondon

    Ah okay, good points! 

     
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    Aug 24, 2012 10:13 PM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    convert it to a tiff file and then try importing again... pain in the butt... but it works.  I have to go back over 1k photos now and re-edit.  Fu$#

     
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    Aug 24, 2012 11:58 PM   in reply to FFHamilton

    FFHamilton wrote:

     

    convert it to a tiff file and then try importing again... pain in the butt... but it works.  I have to go back over 1k photos now and re-edit.  Fu$#

    Is there some reason why the two options already described in this thread, which let you retain the picture data in Raw form for optimal adjustment and results, will not work for you?

     

    DNG Recover Edges, and De-Aspect, both work - and are both free.

     

    Then if you already have edits on the images there are certainly ways to transfer these across - though local adjustments and crop may need to be adjusted; since they will probably shift around.

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 2:34 AM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    Pls We need fix for this. Why lightroom croppes Raw images? Its shows right propoitions of image on import, but after import there is cropped raw file. How to fix it?
    Problem with Canon 5D Mark III

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 7:10 AM   in reply to KiFA_M

    KiFA_M wrote:

     

    Pls We need fix for this. Why lightroom croppes Raw images? Its shows right propoitions of image on import, but after import there is cropped raw file. How to fix it?
    Problem with Canon 5D Mark III

     

    Adobe has released a DNG recover edge plugin for this issue.

     

    http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/lightroomplugins.html

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 7:17 AM   in reply to Lee Jay

    Excellent!! 

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 7:50 AM   in reply to Lee Jay

    Thank You for the link! It works.

    PS. I hope it will be fixed for native Canon format CR2 also.

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 8:54 AM   in reply to KiFA_M

    You guys might look at the posts by Eric Chan in this thread for more information.

     

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lr4_1_rc2_messin g_up_olympus_e_pl1_raw_files

     
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    Sep 23, 2012 9:52 AM   in reply to Lee Jay

    I can't get the plugin to work.  I've posted about it here http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1070579.  Not sure what the issue is.

     
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    Sep 30, 2012 4:02 PM   in reply to Lee Jay

    I got 'caught' by this feature today.

     

    I used my new 5D3 in the same way I normally use my 7D which is to turn on the aspect ratio 'display' on live view so that I can frame my image for alternate format (ie. 1x1). The 'choice' is made in post-processing. On the 7D, RAW files imported with this setting are FULL size. On the 5D3 the RAW files have the aspect ratio applied and it cannot be 'removed'.

     

    This is contrary to the 5D3 manual which says JPEG are saved with the crop but RAW are saved full size. In fact, viewing the RAW file with the Preview.app shows the full size so this is in fact a 'feature' implemented by Lightroom to 'bake in' the aspect ratio set/used in camera.

     

    In Canon Digital Photo Professional the aspect ratio is 'applied' in the default view but can be easily removed. However, changing this on the RAW file doesn't cause Lightroom to 'detect' the file modified outside LR and allow you to apply the changes making the full frame image available in LR4. The ONLY way I could get the full version into LR4 was to export as TIFF with DPP and then import the TIFF in LR4.

     

    I don't 'normally' use TIFF files at the beginning of my workflow although sometimes they end up in LR4 after roundtripping to Photoshop and/or other plugins that require a TIFF file.

     

    This is NOT ideal and should be changed to make the behavior consistent with other Canon bodies and CR2 files and/or with DPP. I personally like the idea to 'display' the image with the aspect ratio on import but ALLOW you to back it out giving the full frame image if you wish. The added benefit is that you get access to the RAW data beyond your original crop that can be used for cloning into the desired crop/aspect ratio.

     

    Please implement this modification in the next update of LR4.

     

    Thanks

     
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    Sep 30, 2012 4:47 PM   in reply to Trevor Cooper

    There is a new plug-in at Adobe Labs to undo the camera-aspect from the raw data, which is not ideal but better than impossible:

     

    http://labs.adobe.com/

     

    Sept 20 entry

     
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    Sep 30, 2012 6:22 PM   in reply to ssprengel

    ssprengel wrote:

     

    There is a new plug-in at Adobe Labs to undo the camera-aspect from the raw data, which is not ideal but better than impossible:

    FYI this seems to be the exact same DNG Recover Edges utility mentioned higher up the thread, which has been avaiable for sone time in stand-alone form, but now also re-packaged as a LR plugin. The image concerned has to be in DNG format, or to be made so, AFAICT.

     

    I recall that this utility is sometimes able to extract a few extra rows and columns even outside the normally-stated sensor effective area - (hence the name) - aside from reversing the types of smaller, in-camera aspect crop mentioned in the OP here.

     

    RP

     
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    Sep 30, 2012 8:21 PM   in reply to richardplondon

    My images are not converted to DNG at this point (if ever) they are imported as native RAW files with LR edits recorded in XMP.

     

    While I haven't tried it, I assume this tool only works on/with DNG files.

     

    In this way when I edit the images ONLY the XMP changes need to be uploaded to my cloud backup instead of the ENTIRE changed DNG file.

     

    My request is simply to allow removal of the applied aspect ratio 'hint' to make the behavior consistent with 7D CR2 files and/or DPP/Canon 5DMKIII manual.

     

    Sent from my iPhone

     
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    Oct 1, 2012 2:29 AM   in reply to Trevor Cooper

    I have the same thinking about DNG and backup, and would rather not convert my proprietary Raw in order to use a tool such as DNG Recover Edges.

     

    However, the approach used by the "De-aspect" plugin mentioned higher up the thread, appears not to require conversion to DNG.

     

    It does involve a filename change which will then raise a similarly severe (actually, greater) impact for e.g. cloud backup - but if one is prepared to clean-up afterwards back to the prior situation in terms of  file naming and XMP, suspending external backup meanwhile,. it is at least workable pending a more LR-integrated solution - which I wholeheartedly support the idea of.

     

    Also the camera-imposed crop should ideally be retained as a nondestructive crop parameter applied to the imported image; and DNG Recover Edges just wipes that altogether, IIRC.

     
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    Dec 19, 2012 10:12 AM   in reply to Evan_Kafka

    I have been sitting on Adobe tech support for almost three hours now trying to get this problem addressed!  Will let you know if there is any progress. 

     
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    Dec 19, 2012 12:20 PM   in reply to ssalfen30

    Update: Total time on tech support with Adobe's India call center was 3 1/2 hours with no hope of a fix.  I was promised a call back withtin the hour from someone higher up the technical chain, but this never happened.  I then called Canon who said they have been hearing this problem a lot and they can't pressure Adobe to fix it.  Looks like Adobe has no intentions of remedying this, but I gave 1/2 of my day to give it a good try! I wish there was some way to actually speak to someone at Adobe.

     
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    Dec 19, 2012 8:11 PM   in reply to ssalfen30

    It's odd that you did that when all the answers were already in this thread and the thread linked above.  Note that in the other thread, Eric Chan (employee) answered the questions specifically.  He's not some tech support guy from India, he's THE guy.  So what he said in that thread is ground truth.

     
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    Dec 19, 2012 11:57 PM   in reply to ssalfen30

    And specifically relating to the issue on the Canon 5DIII, see this thread where again Eric Chan comments:

     

    http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom_4_2_ca nnot_uncrop_canon_5d_mark_iii_images_taken_with_in_camera_cropping_tur ned_on

     
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