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OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?

Apr 23, 2012 12:32 AM

CS6 is out, the best roundup I've seen is at InDesign Secrets.  It all looks great especially creating forms!  BTW if you want to moan about the endnotes ommision I truly sympathise with you but start a new thread!

 

However just for fun my question is - what is the CS6 equivalent to the universally despised and never used Content Grabber tool, aka as the "Donut"?

 

My pick is it's the Content Collector and Placer Tools.  I haven't used it, but just looking at it my first thought is why the heck can't you just use the standard selection tool?  And why two tools?  Perhaps it's different in actual practise.  I don't know.  But it sure looks awkward....

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 2:04 AM   in reply to Stix Hart

    This is what happens when you see incomplete previews of not-yet released software...

     

    I expect you'll get real demonstrations of some of these new features, like the Content Collector/Placer/Conveyor in the official rollout announcement that coming.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 23, 2012 4:23 AM   in reply to Stix Hart

    Isn't the frustration with the Content Grabber (donut) that you keep running into it by accident, and click on it inadvertently when you try to click on the middle of an image?

     

    I don't think the Content Collector is going to have that particular problem...I think Adobe learned a lesson about adornments...

     

    Anyhow, it's your question, but is it supposed to be "What has Adobe done to break existing workflows in subtle ways?"

    I kind of wonder if that's going to end up being that Cmd-1,Cmd-2,Cmd-3 are all multiplied from what they used to be now that 100% really is actual size...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 4:40 AM   in reply to Stix Hart

    I think this may be a new record for fastest complaint about a new version.

     

    Seriously, wait til you get your hands on it. Is it perfect? No, but there are some compelling features.

     

    Here's my top 10, FWIW: http://bit.ly/IjrPvp

     

    Bob

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 23, 2012 4:45 AM   in reply to Bob Levine

    Geeze, Bob!

    First you say:

    I think this may be a new record for fastest complaint about a new version.

    And then you turn around and give us your top ten complaints?!:

     

    Here's my top 10, FWIW: http://bit.ly/IjrPvp

    That's just a little over the top! :-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 5:26 AM   in reply to Bob Levine

    Bob Levine quothe:

    Forms Designers Rejoice. Your Pleas Have Been Heard.

     

    The catchphrase for CS5/5.5 could have been "E-pub Designers Rejoice". The one for CS4 surely would be "Flash Designers Rejoice". Only going back as far as CS3, there was reason for book designers to rejoice.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 5:28 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Ah, John is in rare form today!

     

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 5:28 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    Yeah…no endnote, footnote or any other long document love in this release.

     

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 5:48 AM   in reply to Bob Levine

    I don't understand how "split window" is different form the already

    existing "Add a new window"?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 5:59 AM   in reply to Stix Hart

    An ominous phrase to see pop up in a New Feature list:

     

    "This bug has been fixed in CS6." (http://indesignsecrets.com/heres-what-we-love-about-indesign-cs6.php)

     

    To me, this means that

     

    (a) Adobe acknowledges something is a bug, but

    (b) chooses not to fix it in the version of ID where this bug was found, and this

    (c) gives old version users their ol' "well you gotta update for that" company line. (I used something else they were giving their constituency, but this sounds -- a bit -- nicer.)

     

    I'm also missing speed comparisons. I've abandoned the question of "is it ...?": How much slower than CS5.5 is CS6, on the same computer?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 6:03 AM   in reply to Stix Hart

    Looks like a lot of crap added and no real functionality. More toys to break and/or already broken that we won't see fixed until CS 6.5 or 7 - if at all.

     

    Installing Quark - yes I am. To see if that will do more with footnotes. I don't care how I get my books done, as long as it's simple.

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 23, 2012 6:36 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    An ominous phrase to see pop up in a New Feature list:

     

    "This bug has been fixed in CS6." (http://indesignsecrets.com/heres-what-we-love-about-indesign-cs6.php)

     

    To me, this means that

     

    (a) Adobe acknowledges something is a bug, but

    (b) chooses not to fix it in the version of ID where this bug was found, and this

    (c) gives old version users their ol' "well you gotta update for that" company line. (I used something else they were giving their constituency, but this sounds -- a bit -- nicer.)

    Jongware, I think this is unfair.

     

    It should not be unexpected.

     

    Adobe's software development practices are quite similar to those throughout the industry, but basically:

     

    1. Do development on the trunk

    2. Branch the tree for a major release

    3. Fix bugs on the trunk first

    4. If warranted, backport the fix to the branch

     

    The only real question should be what the criteria for (4) are.

    Go back and look at the extensive release notes that Adobe publishes for InDesign (and those release notes are great! Can you name another commercial software package in this industry that gives you this kind of visibility into bugs fixed?), and you'll get an idea of what can be fixed in maintenance updates.

     

    You can see it's all over the map. Some are obvious major issues that only affect a narrow segment (7.0.1 corrected huge problems for German and Swedish but was irrelevant elsewhere), others are much more significant, and some are quite minor.

     

    My understanding is that for InDesign, the bugfixes that get backported are those that meet all of these criteria: a) are sufficiently narrow in scope that they can be backported without destabilizing the product; this is a judgement call and a balancing act, but a lot depends on internal details we cannot see b) re requested by a major customer, or a significant number of minor customers, or are identified internally as high profile issues.

     

    Frankly, I'm often surprised at some of the bugfixes that seem to make it in to maintenance releases. It seems like they are pretty liberal with the criteria. But they can't backport everything, and that's a huge amount of development effort.

     

     

    So, it is not the Adobe "chooses not to fix it," it's that they choose to fix it and choose not to bend over backwards to backport the fix to a prior version; at least sometimes they choose that. This is a reasonable allocation of scarce resources. I'd much rather have 10 bugs fixed in CS6 than 5 bugs fixed in CS5.5 and CS6.

     

    In my book, that's reasonable. But also in my book, we budget for the paying for the new version and don't expect the old version to be updated to fix new bugs (in my case, we purchase volume licensing maintenance). Adobe would like everyone to do that, of course, and hence the subscription model and Creative Cloud etc., etc.

     

    In any case, though, if you have a bug you want backported, you should tell Adobe Support loudly and clearly. Because that's the way the system works.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 6:40 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    In some cases Adobe says it can't fix a bug until the next release, then someone comes along and gets lot of people to report the bug and Adobe back track and fix the bug.

     

    http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/restore-style-mapping-presets-report -this-bug

     

    Then was fixed

    http://www.theindesigner.com/blog/style-mapping-bug-fixed-with-604-upd ate

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 8:39 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Call me gray and weary, but the way the system works seems to be to concentrate on offering brand new features at a steady pace, rather than to fix old bug-ridden ones.

     

    From a pure marketing point-of-view I cannot deny this makes more sense than "New in CS6! Everything you already had in CS5, but with the Bugs Fixed!"

     

    From a customer point-of-view, it's grade up or shut up.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 9:30 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    I've not tried InDesign CS6 yet but here's my take on some of the noted new features

     

    Creating Interactive Forms

    So what? You get a "Sample Library" you get some additions to the Buttons panel? Big whoop. I bet it doesn't work very well for complex forms.

     

    Alternate Layouts

    Sounds great, I'm not sure if the alternate layouts are dynamic (make one change in one layout and it happens in the other, or if content can be unlinked between documents, or if they're standalone documents residing in one document?) But it sounds promising.

     

    Liquid Layout

    An improvement to "Layout Adjustment" by the looks of it.

     

    Content Collector/Content Placer tools

    A fancy Copy and Paste - that a lot of people can't really see the point of this feature

     

    On-object Link Status and Control

    They added a node to the frame to let you know if a link isn't working - AMAZING

     

    Primary Text Frame

    Finally got the Master Text Frame working properly - and renamed it

     

     

    Text Frames that Auto-Size

    Something that a plugin developer did a while ago - it was good, looks like they've adapted it.

     

    Flexible Columns

    Great - it seems to be related to the Text Frame Auto size though.

     

    Still can't have different WIDTHS for each column though!

     

     

    Improved EPUB 2 Export, new EPUB 3 Export

    To be expected - it wasn't great in CS5.5 and the new stuff for Epub 3 is a work in progress

     

    Grayscale Preview and Grayscale PDF Export

    Well about time - only took them about 10 years

     

    Align to Key Object

    Function taken from Illustrator - it's not a big deal - you could make a Key Object by locking an object before - don't see the difference here

     

     

    The Little Things

    User Interface tweaks - Wow! They used title case


    Placeholder text language options - AMAZING can get that from the web - took a few seconds


    Split Window- added another icon to split windows - why?


    Complex Calculations in Dialog Boxes and Panels - WOW - a computer doing calculations

     

    Digital Publishing workspace - they put a bunch of useless tools (probably the wrong set of tools into a workspace - you can do that yourself?)

     

    Export to PNG (with transparency) - GREAT can't wait to see what pancake way it exports this - I'll probably still have to export to PDF and save as PDF from photoshop for better quality.

     

    Extension Manager Sets - Eh?

     

    Accurate screen sizing - seems like they fixed a bug

     

    Keeps with Spans and Splits - Fixed another bug

     

    Recent Fonts List - AMAZING

     

    Save as IDML- Finally make it intuitive for new users!!!

     

    PANTONE PLUS SERIES color swatch libraries - you can download and install those yourself ...

     

    Name Ranges in XLSX files - Fixed another bug

     

    Export to Interactive As Pages - Fixed the Spreads bug as always on!

     

    Package files includes overlay assets - Surely this should have been already - looks like another Bug Fix.

     

     

    Overall - I don't see "New Features" I see mostly Old Features Updated and dressed up - Plus a Lot of "Bug Fixes" since CS5.5

     

    Will CS5.5 get thes fixes? OR even CS5? I doubt it.

     

     

    Nothing really wowing me here.


     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 23, 2012 11:46 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    Call me gray and weary, but the way the system works seems to be to concentrate on offering brand new features at a steady pace, rather than to fix old bug-ridden ones.

    I think you'll be pleased at the number of bugfixes in CS6.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 23, 2012 6:18 PM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    I have to agree with the general consensus - nothing really worth upgrading for in Indesign CS6. Of course a lot of us will upgrade to stay current with suppliers and other businesses, but this is really the ONLY reason we're upgrading.

     

    While we all understand that tablet publishing is important, or will become more important, somehow Adobe manage to miss that the vast majority of work done with Indesign is destined for print. It will be a long time before the balance swings in favour of tablet publishing... if ever.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 1:19 AM   in reply to flaming1

    Well I have an upgrade available for the next 2 versions, and I won't be upgrading to CS6 until I've seen some reports and issues from users with CS6 "new" features.

     

    Reckon I'll give it 3 months from release date, at least.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 5:51 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Eugene Tyson wrote:

     

    Well I have an upgrade available for the next 2 versions, and I won't be upgrading to CS6 until I've seen some reports and issues from users with CS6 "new" features.

     

    How do you figure that? Adobe has made it clear that once 2013 rolls around only current versions can upgrade to the new one.

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Feb 21, 2013 9:44 AM   in reply to flaming1

    flaming1 wrote:

     

    I have to agree with the general consensus - nothing really worth upgrading for in Indesign CS6

    What concensus? And just exactly how can you...or anyone else make that judgement?

     

    I can't say for certain whether you will benefit from an upgrade or not, but I can say that you have no way, from just reading about this stuff to claim that you won't.

     

    When the trials are available check them out, but remember, if you upgrade to CS5.5 now (assuming you haven't already) you'll get CS6 for free. With a suite that will save you hundreds of dollars.

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:06 AM   in reply to flaming1

    flaming1 wrote:

     

    While we all understand that tablet publishing is important, or will become more important, somehow Adobe manage to miss that the vast majority of work done with Indesign is destined for print. It will be a long time before the balance swings in favour of tablet publishing... if ever.

    I work exclusively for print, but I know my days are numbered (or at least that I will be serving a niche market within ten years). I think you're dreaming.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:36 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    I agree with Peter.

     

    I started in typesetting. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, in the companies where I worked in San Diego and San Francisco, the typesetters (those who set type on machines dedicated to creating galley type which was pasted up) existed in a separate department from the "service bureau" business I was in charge of. We did output from this new thing called then "desktop publishing". The typesetters all thought they would continue in their jobs but within 10 years they were all doing other work.

     

    Time always moves forward, not back.

     

    That's why I'm focusing a lot of my energy on learning the new technologies, as I did back then.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:43 AM   in reply to Bob Levine

    Bob Levine wrote:

     

    How do you figure that? Adobe has made it clear that once 2013 rolls around only current versions can upgrade to the new one.

     

    Bob

     

    I'm on CS5.5 now. We somehow got a deal of 2 upgrades, one to Cs6 and one to whatever is after that - or perhaps just paid for it in advance, I'm not sure of the details.

     

    But given past releases of InDesign, they can be buggy, and I will wait to find out if it's something that can possibly affect the workflow. Given I'm the only one that uses the software here, I can't really take the chance that something buggy slows down production - so I will be waiting to find out.

     

    Just going on past experience. And it's not a "dig" at Adobe, I do the same with all software. I generally wait to see what is buggy and needs fixing before I commit to installing.

     

    I will probably try the trial version myself at home.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:47 AM   in reply to Steve Werner

    One thing I will add, though, is that books will never go away!

    Certainly this is true in the case of Orthodox Jews (the "people of the

    book") who cannot use electronic devices on their day of rest and study:

    Saturday! A large portion of the Jewish book market is books that

    clearly people will only read on Saturday. So that segment of the

    publishing world is here to stay!

     

    Ariel

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:50 AM   in reply to [Ariel]

    I also don't think books will go away. I like Peter's characterization that print (and books) will be more of a niche market in the future.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:52 AM   in reply to [Ariel]

    That certainly qualifies as a “niche” market.

     

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 6:55 AM   in reply to Bob Levine

    Depends on your perspective. if you're right there in the cholent, the

    "rest of the world" is the niche!

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 24, 2012 6:57 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Eugene:

    But given past releases of InDesign, they can be buggy, and I will wait to find out if it's something that can possibly affect the workflow. Given I'm the only one that uses the software here, I can't really take the chance that something buggy slows down production - so I will be waiting to find out.

    Realistically, I think you have to install the new version and do your testing against it.

    Not necessarily move your production work to it, but you take the upgrade, you install it, and you try it out.

     

    I guess you can let other people do your testing for you, but then I don't think you can fairly complain when there are bugs no one has caught...

    Of course there is a lag behind bugs being found, reported, and fixed.

     

    For the pessimist, the early-adopter CS6 bugs will be fixed in CS7.

    For the optimist, they'll be fixed in maintenance dot-release 8.0.1.

    For everyone else, it'll be somewhere in between.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:05 AM   in reply to John Hawkinson

    Given past experiences, I won't be upgrading on release date, realistically. CS5.5 is working as intended, I'll upgrade when I deem it safe to.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:12 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    For the record - I'm delighted things are moving towards the Tablet devices in InDesign.

     

    I'm just furious that long document features have been neglected, and this has been happening since before "Tablet" and "Interactive" options were added to InDesign.

     

    It's been too long. Why can't they update both aspects of the software?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:17 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Here’s the best suggestion I can make for you, Eugene:

     

     

     

    https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=prerelease_interes t

     

     

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:18 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    You need to come to PepCon in San Francisco, and do an IGNITE session like Tony Hammer did last year about having PDF Form tools in InDesign! He did a wonderful poem which brought hundreds of people to their feet applauding (and caused InDesign product manager Chris Kitchener to realize that they needed to try to add that feature to CS6 even though it wasn't on the roadmap).

     

    If you can create excitement about footnotes and endnotes, you've got it made! ;-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:24 AM   in reply to Steve Werner

    Why aren't they looking at the own Feature Request forums though? Why do I have to get them excited about it? Why do I have travel thousands of miles and spends thousands of Euros to get them to listen to something they should done 6 years ago?

     

    Since 2005 I've been putting in requests on the Adobe wishlist to improve long document features. I know that many many many others have done so too.

     

    On top of this 6-7 year campaign I've to go to Pepcon, write a poem, create excitement, and embarrass the Adobe team into improving the software...

     

    C'mon - yanking my leg aren't you

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:27 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    I might as well say it now - I've to pay a lot more €€€€€ in Europe for the exact same software.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:32 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Yes, I'm pulling your leg, Eugene.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 7:37 AM   in reply to Steve Werner

    Ah ha yes, I thought so lol.

     

    I've to keep the campaign going for improvements to long documents.

     

    Gotta make a song and dance, or at least a poem, for Adobe to take notice; I have a feeling I'm talking to a wall though. But I'll persevere.

     

    Roll on CS7.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 8:52 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Adobe take note,

    to make everything in your suite,

    not so extended to bloat,

    'cause it's endnotes we need.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 10:08 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Agreed, we definitely need improvements for footnotes, endnotes, and indexes!

     
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  • John Hawkinson
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    Apr 24, 2012 10:35 AM   in reply to Eugene Tyson

    Eugene asks:

    Why aren't they looking at the own Feature Request forums though?

    This is definitely a fair question. Customers have reasonable expectations about the Feature Request forum that are not met.

    I'm not sure if this is an accident of history, that those forums were used in the past and are not now the preferred choice, or if it is something else. I tend to think it just oversight. Perhaps someone should ask Chris K. definitively what he thinks, and then either close that forum, post a prominent notice explaining its purpose (inter-user discussion prior to feature request submission, but not a path to Adobe), or something else?

     

     

    On the other hand:

    Why do I have to get them excited about it? Why do I have travel thousands of miles and spends thousands of Euros to get them to listen to something they should done 6 years ago?

     

    Since 2005 I've been putting in requests on the Adobe wishlist to improve long document features. I know that many many many others have done so too.

     

    On top of this 6-7 year campaign I've to go to Pepcon, write a poem, create excitement, and embarrass the Adobe team into improving the software...

     

    C'mon - yanking my leg aren't you

    This one's very easy to answer. I'm not sure why Steve answered it the way he did, because I would disagree.

     

    You have to get them excited about it, Eugene, because there are literally thousands of other features that people are asking for, and in their evaluation, long document features are not important enough compared to the other features they are evaluating and have implemented. Your feature didn't make the cut.

     

    It's not because they don't like you, it's because they don't think it is important enough.

    This is pretty much for one of two reasons:

    . They are failing to properly measure the demand for the feature

    . They are properly measuring the demand, it's just not there compared to the demand for other features

     

    By campaigning and raising awareness you can help with the first bullet.

     

    Project managers have lists of  thousands of features that people want, and most of them cannot make it in. That's reality.

     

    But I do think, also, that  just dropping wishes in the wishing well (http://adobe.com/go/wish) is not the most effective path. Opening support tickets, getting other customers to do the same, and communicating with the PMs is likely to be more effective. Or finding innovative ways to solve your problem.

     

    If there is a popular plugin that provides the features you want, then Adobe can look at that and easily say "Users want this; they are willing to pay." (Of course, they can also say "User can just buy the plugin.").

    So maybe, if you're concerned with long-document features, work with InDesign plugin developers and scripters to get InDesign extended in the direction you want.

     

    Don't have the budget for that? Band together with other InDesign users, perhaps.

     

    The squeaky wheel gets the oil, I'm afraid.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 5:24 PM   in reply to Bob Levine

    Bob - re the consensus - look at pretty much all the comments above my first comment, and spend some time out of these forums and see what others are saying too. While you're correct in saying that most of us haven't tried out CS6 yet, we are reacting to the announced new features.

     

    I already own CS5.5 and qualify for the free upgrade to CS6, and I love what Indesign is and what it can do. It is Adobe's best product and has been since probably Indesign 2. It is my primary software used in both my jobs. I also agree that Adobe are correct in keeping up/leading the way with the tablet side of things - and I'm enjoying learning the new skills. All I'm saying is that there is nothing in CS6, or CS5.5 for that matter, that makes it a worthwhile upgrade for the majority of print designers. Like it or not Indesign is very good PRINT design software that is adding on digital publishing tools.

     

    And Peter, with no disrespect intended, I believe that you are dreaming. You are almost certainly right that print will be a smaller market in 10 years time, but it will not be the niche market that you suggest. Tablets are the niche market now and for the next few years at least will probably remain that way. I too have been in the design business since the early 1980s and have seen the changes that can happen when new technology appears. It's safe to say there is no way magazines and books are going to disappear in physical form anytime soon. Neither are bookshops or magazine stands.

     

    I also work exclusively for print at present. We got on board with testing for tablet publishing early on and we have been to market to see what sort of interest there was... and the answer for us was pretty much none at present. It is seen as too 'niche' and too small a market for existing publishers to invest in at present. They are interested, as they realise that they will have to be able to offer it eventually, but for the forseeable future print will remain king.

     

    How many times have we all seen the 'death of print' forecast, or even the 'paperless office'? For decades both have been regularly trotted out every time something new comes up and both are repeatedly proved wrong. A bit like I'm sure how December 12, 2012 will turn out :-)

     

    We'll keep up with testing tablet publishing and it's possibilities but it will remain a spare time sort of thing for a while yet. If the 'tablet revolution' ever does come we will be ready, but in the meantime, Adobe, can you please try not to forget who your main Indesign market still is.

     
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