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Ed.Macke 683 posts
Mar 17, 2006
Currently Being Moderated

Video Card Advice for CS6 (Win)

Apr 24, 2012 8:57 AM

I'm currently using Premiere Elements, but am looking to buy the CS6 Suite with Premiere Pro. While I do mostly SD editing, my son wants to get into AVCHD editing and especially using AfterEffects.

 

Given that I currently have a homebuilt PC (specs at end of post) with only integrated Intel HD2000 graphics, I guess


  • Question #1 is will I really need a dedicated video card, or is the HD2000 enough for what I want to do? Of course faster = better, but how much faster will it be for my money, i.e. bang for the buck.

 

  • And Question #2 would be... if so, which card? I really don't want to spend more than I need, but I also don't want to go cheap and end up with a solution that's not much better than what I have.


I'm especially confused with Mercury Playback, AfterEffects, SpeedGrade, and what is truly needed. Looking at this page, they really push the Quadro GPU and Quadro SDI Output cards. But on the "officially supported" page, it lists GeForce GTX, Quadro FX, and Quadro cards.

 

What the heck? Can somebody help me wade through this alphabet soup of cards, and what supports what?

 

Let's say I went with the GTX 570... is 1GB enough ($300 for the EVGA version) or do I need 2GB ($340)? Would the 570 be good enough?

 

Or do I need to go to the GTX 580? At $430 for the 1.5GB and $480 for the 3GB, it's signficantly more money than the GTX570 so it better be significantly better than the GTX570.

 

Or there's the the Quadro 2000 or 2000D for about $400. It seems to fall between the 570 and 580 price-wise, but it's a different line. Also, cards only seems to be made by PNY... what's up with that?

 

I can look at tech specs and marketing hype until I'm blue in the face, but it's not helping me decide what I really need - and how cheap I can go

 

TIA!!

 

System Specs

---------------------------------------------------------------

Win7 Home Premium 64-bit

Intel i7-2600 (not overclocked, stock cooler)

Intel DZ68BC motherboard

16GB G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3 1333

SeaSonic 620W Power Supply

WD Caviar Blue SATA III 500 GB (programs)

WD Caviar Blue SATA III 500 GB (data files)

WD Caviar Black SATA III 1TB (video files)

Antec 1200 case w/ 6 fans

 
Replies 1 2 Previous Next
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 9:43 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    I think this thread might be helpful:

     

    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/947698

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 9:45 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    you need a nvidia graphics card for best realtime performance for effects, dissolves, color correction etc. This don't have to be an expensive quadro model it can be a GeForce, too. It#s important you choose a model which is listed as compatible on adobe's specs.

     

    You have a fast CPU, maybe you don't need the GPU power in your projects. You can use CS5.5/6 in Software Mercury Engine mode, which processes very fast, too. Try it with the upcoming demo-version and then decide to buy a graphics card or not.

     
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    Apr 24, 2012 9:53 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    You will be able to edit AVCHD wihout a "CUDA" card, simply slower

    http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/02/cuda-mercury-playba ck-engine-and-adobe-premiere-pro.html

     

    For what you will do, do NOT buy Quadro! As Harm would say... over priced and under specced

     

    Go to the CS5 Benchmark http://ppbm5.com/ and read the results

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 9:53 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    Of the models you listed, I'd go for the 2GB 570 myself.  A 570 will give you great performance, and the extra 1GB of memory for $40 seems worth it.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 10:19 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    There are a couple of things about your system:

     

    1. A 620 W PSU.

    2. 3 Caviar Blue disks.

    3. The integrated graphics card.

     

    If you want a nVidia CUDA capable card for hardware MPE, consider anything from the GTX 560 Ti and upward. If your son uses multicam with his AVCHD material, consider the largest amount of VRAM available. If your video card runs out of VRAM space it will (very ungracefully) drop down to software mode MPE. But also consider that if you go beyond the 560 Ti, the PSU may not be enough, you may need a bigger PSU in the range of 750 W. Check the link to eXtreme Power Supply Calculator Pro v2.5 that Srukweza showed you in the link above. Finally, the Caviar Blue disks are not the best models to use. They are slower than the Caviar Blacks, but can do OK for starting out, as long as you keep in mind that eventually you want full speed 7200 disks like the Caviar Blacks and then you can use your Blues for back-up.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 12:05 PM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    >620W Power

     

    What I built is linked at http://forums.adobe.com/thread/652694

     

    The nVidia 285 I use (no longer sold) has TWO power connections... and, with everything else in my computer, I think would quickly kill a power supply that small

     

    I do not believe a 620w PS is enough for you to go to an nVidia card

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 2:28 PM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    What do you prefer, when going on a trip with 4 adults and 500 lbs of luggage in hilly terrain:

     

    1. A FIAT Cinquecento, or

    2. A BMW 530i

     

    and both doing around 80 Mph? The FIAT has to run at 100% power, the Beamer has a leisurely time. I can guarantee the FIAT is running flat out and disaster is ready to strike, overheating the engine, using more oil and not half as efficient in fuel consumption as the Beamer. The FIAT will also make a lot more noise.

     

    Same with a PSU. A PSU of 1700 W does not consume more energy than a 500 W PSU, it will run quieter, more reliable and cost more, just like the two cars mentioned above. There are numerous lousy power calculators around, think Asus, Newegg etc. but the only one recommended, also by Tom's Hardware worth looking at, is eXtreme Power Supply Calculator Pro v2.5

     

    You also have to take into consideration that a marginal PSU will cause huge headaches, first in finding that the PSU is at fault when you have all these mysterious hangs, then when you have to replace it with all those hard to reach cables connections.

     

    IMO it is absolutely penny-wise, pound-foolish to skimp on a PSU.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 2:44 PM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Actually, that also depends on the PSU itself. There are numerous astronomically expensive, ultra-high-powered PSUs out there that simply waste electricity no matter what. At less than 20 percent of maximum capacity, a PSU is much less efficient than a PSU that's at 50 percent of maximum load. This is because a PSU's circuitry, like a car's engine, needs to be run at a certain minimum just to not waste power. And what good is a 1700W PSU if it's going to be outputting less than 350W most of the time that it's powered on?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 24, 2012 8:39 PM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    BTW, After Effects CS6 does use CUDA---though just for the new ray-traced 3D renderer.

     

    Details are here:

    http://www.video2brain.com/en/lessons/system-requirements-for-gpu-acce leration-opengl-cuda

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 7:18 AM   in reply to John T Smith

    John T Smith wrote:

     

    For what you will do, do NOT buy Quadro! As Harm would say... over priced and under specced

    Actually, this may change with CS6: It may make excellent use of certain capabilities of the Quadro that are seriously lacking in the GeForce. But we will not know for sure until the first few batches of results appear on the PPBM6 results list. If what I stated proves true, then the performance ranking may very well go strictly by price, where a Quadro 2000 performs roughly equal to a current-gen GeForce of equal price.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 9:21 AM   in reply to RjL190365

    The SpeedGrade guys are rather adamant about the Quadro being a better choice for their software. I'll dig into the details about why.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 9:54 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    Power supplies are rated for DC output whereas most reviews measure the AC input. There used to be a big difference between the two but with the advent of Gold and Platinum rated PSUs the difference can be 10% or less.

     

    Since you have a SeaSonic 620W PSU who are one of the top manufactures (retail and ODM) I suggest that 620W is more than adequate to run a GTX 570.

    To be certain I suggest checking what the 12V rail is for your PSU.

    You would be unlikely to pull more than 400W DC at peak and typically under 350W DC at load so a high quality 620W such as you have gives a lot of headroom.

     

    There are a lot of people that are seemingly ‘scared’ of power supplies and think you need a 100% headroom to be safe. A quality PSU such as you have is designed to run at its rated output safely. If you had a cheapo unit that would be different. You have a very large margin anyway so even the scared crowd would need to be particularly paranoid to be scared here. 350W load versus 620W rating equals 56% of the maximum rating for the PSU.

     

    To make a car analogy:

    If you buy a $30k car (analogous to a 620W PSU) and drive it to 56% of the 7,000 rpm red line (~3,900 rpm) is it any less reliable than a $60k car (analogous to a 1.2kW PSU) driven only to say 28% (half the rating) of the same red line (~1,950 rpm)?

    If both cars are reliable brands then it’s really not an issue surely.

     
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    Apr 25, 2012 10:09 AM   in reply to eclipse_crow

    eclipse_crow wrote:

     

    Power supplies are rated for DC output whereas most reviews measure the AC input. There used to be a big difference between the two but with the advent of Gold and Platinum rated PSUs the difference can be 10% or less.

     

    Since you have a SeaSonic 620W PSU who are one of the top manufactures (retail and ODM) I suggest that 620W is more than adequate to run a GTX 570.

    To be certain I suggest checking what the 12V rail is for your PSU.

    You would be unlikely to pull more than 400W DC at peak and typically under 350W DC at load so a high quality 620W such as you have gives a lot of headroom.

     

    There are a lot of people that are seemingly ‘scared’ of power supplies and think you need a 100% headroom to be safe. A quality PSU such as you have is designed to run at its rated output safely. If you had a cheapo unit that would be different. You have a very large margin anyway so even the scared crowd would need to be particularly paranoid to be scared here. 350W load versus 620W rating equals 56% of the maximum rating for the PSU.

     

    To make a car analogy:

    If you buy a $30k car (analogous to a 620W PSU) and drive it to 56% of the 7,000 rpm red line (~3,900 rpm) is it any less reliable than a $60k car (analogous to a 1.2kW PSU) driven only to say 28% (half the rating) of the same red line (~1,950 rpm)?

    If both cars are reliable brands then it’s really not an issue surely.

    Bravo. The power supply calculators have to account for the fact that there are many mediocre-quality PSUs still sold today that cannot handle more than about 60 to 70 percent of their rated wattage (for example, a few cheap "700W" PSUs can't really handle more than 500W). In fact, a few PSU calculators take into account really bad-quality PSUs that could barely handle even half of their ratings (for example, a "650W" PSU that barely handles 300 to 350W under realistic conditions).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 10:37 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    You can’t just add the numbers like that as sometimes having dual rails means that the actual combined voltage is significantly less than the value you get when adding the two. What model do you have?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 10:40 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    Ed.Macke wrote:

     

    I'm glad to hear somebody else likes Seasonic. When I was building my rig, Seasonic was not a brand that came up a lot in the various builder forums. But I did a lot of homework and it seemed like a good choice so I went for it.

     

     

    To be certain I suggest checking what the 12V rail is for your PSU.

     

     

    It has (2) +12V rails, each at 24A. Doing the math real quick seems to mean 576W DC.


    Actually, with most "multi-rail" PSUs, never add up the two rails together. However, in the case of both the S12-II and M12-II 620W PSUs, the two "24A" rails do add up. In this case, both of the "rails" are connected to a common +12V output transformer whose maximum capacity just happens to be 48A (576W). And each of the two "rails" have an OCP (Over-Current Protection) circuit set at 24A. However, someone else dissected that Seasonic PSU, and actually found it to have just a single 48A +12V rail. No separate rails, no separate OCP circuit. Thus, for all practical purposes, the Seasonic 620W PSU is a single-rail PSU with 48A on the +12V.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 10:48 AM   in reply to Harm Millaard

    Harm Millaard

    “What do you prefer, when going on a trip with 4 adults and 500 lbs of luggage in hilly terrain:

    1. A FIAT Cinquecento, or
    2. A BMW 530i

     

    and both doing around 80 Mph? The FIAT has to run at 100% power, the Beamer has a leisurely time. I can guarantee the FIAT is running flat out and disaster is ready to strike, overheating the engine, using more oil and not half as efficient in fuel consumption as the Beamer. The FIAT will also make a lot more noise.”

     

    Harm, I’ve noticed before that your analogies are terrible and this is especially bad.

    Swapping out a PSU is akin to getting an upgraded engine and not using a completely different car from a cheaper manufacturer of a smaller format!

    The OP has a Seasonic PSU and they are Mercedes class let’s say so I suggest a better analogy is this:

     

    Take a C class Mercedes and compare one with an entry level engine and one with an upgraded engine.

     

    Is the entry level engine less reliable? No.

    Is the entry level engine less efficient? For the same engine type it’s generally more efficient.

    Is the entry level engine noisier? For the same engine type generally not.

     

    Your analogy is the roughly equivalent of changing the case, fans, CPU and power supply which is meaningless when only looking at one component.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 10:53 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    Ed,

     

    The M12II 620 is as I described in my last post: For all practical purposes, it is a 80-Plus Bronze certified PSU with a single +12V rail rated at 48A (576W). It should be enough for most Premiere Pro hardware configurations although it will consume slightly more AC wattage from the wall than PSUs with a Gold or Platinum rating at the same DC wattage output.

     

    As for SpeedGrade, there is no software-only mode. If it detects a non-CUDA GPU or a GPU that doesn't support it, SpeedGrade is simply disabled.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 11:05 AM   in reply to eclipse_crow

    eclipse_crow wrote:

     

    Swapping out a PSU is akin to getting an upgraded engine and not using a completely different car from a cheaper manufacturer of a smaller format!

    The OP has a Seasonic PSU and they are Mercedes class let’s say so I suggest a better analogy is this:

     

    Take a C class Mercedes and compare one with an entry level engine and one with an upgraded engine.

     

    Is the entry level engine less reliable? No.

    Is the entry level engine less efficient? For the same engine type it’s generally more efficient.

    Is the entry level engine noisier? For the same engine type generally not.

    On the other hand, if a given car ships with an underpowered engine as its entry level engine, then it will be significantly noisier and less efficient - and it may very well be ill-suited for highway driving because it cannot reach typical highway speeds reliably. This is the situation if an even lower-wattage PSU from the same manufacturer is used - one that turned out to be unable to handle a typical editing system configuration. (That analogy is similar to a car that's equipped with an engine that's mismatched to the weight of the vehicle.)

     

    And yes, a 1700W power supply that's outputting no more than 350W most of the time is like putting an 8.6L V12 engine in a Ford Mondeo/Fusion.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 11:13 AM   in reply to RjL190365

    “On the other hand, if a given car ships with an underpowered engine as its entry level engine, then it will be significantly noisier and less efficient - and it may very well be ill-suited for highway driving because it cannot reach typical highway speeds reliably. This is the situation if an even lower-wattage PSU from the same manufacturer is used - one that turned out to be unable to handle a typical editing system configuration. (That analogy is similar to a car that's equipped with an engine that's mismatched to the weight of the vehicle.)”

     

    In this context we’ve already shown that a Seasonic 620W is more than capable of handling the load so this seems another poor analogy; it feels as if it has been stretched well beyond breaking point.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 11:44 AM   in reply to eclipse_crow

    While what you stated is true for the Seasonic, it is not true for the many "650W" PSUs that can barely handle 450W under realistic conditions.

     
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    Apr 25, 2012 12:19 PM   in reply to RjL190365

    “While what you stated is true for the Seasonic, it is not true for the many "650W" PSUs that can barely handle 450W under realistic conditions.”

     

    I appreciate that but surely we are here to respond to the OP and not some random spec!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 25, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to eclipse_crow

    Regarding SpeedGrade:

     

    Don't think of SpeedGrade as "being accelerated by the GPU". Think of SpeedGrade as "running on GPU". The dependence of SpeedGrade on a powerful GPU with plenty of VRAM is deep and unaviodable. It is not like Premiere Pro or After Effects, in which the processing will fall back to the CPU if the GPU isn't capable.

     

    A related example: If you try to run SpeedGrade on Windows on a Mac with Bootcamp, you'll have problems with the UI not even appearing, because it's relying on the GPU for some things that don't work under Bootcamp. (I learned this from experience.)

     
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    Apr 25, 2012 4:40 PM   in reply to Todd_Kopriva

    Interesting.  I wonder if that will make the 680 more attractive, and possibly worth the price.  (Not sure it's worth an extra $300 for the meager Mercury improvements alone.  But for SpeedGrade...)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2012 11:32 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    I spent about $300 upgrading our computer's graphic card for my 12 year old son who has CS5.5 installed and uses it for Video Production. I put in  GeForce GTX 560Ti 2g card on my I7 PC with 16gb RAM and I don't see it on the list of accepted cards?!?! Will he be able to run CS6? What do I need to do? This is very confusing. Why can't Adobe issue an update for their accepted cards? My son is having the same issue with 3Ds max. (((Please help)))

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2012 11:39 AM   in reply to mmaderek

    Search the forums for "CUDA" and "hack". The GTX 560 Ti is not on the official list of supported GPUs in Premiere Pro CS5.5; however, you can make MPE GPU acceleration work with that GPU with the CUDA hack.

     
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    Apr 26, 2012 11:53 AM   in reply to Ed.Macke

    I had to also pay additional to put in 750w when the GTX 560Ti 2g was installed and I am am way over budget with this system so that my 12 year old can advance his video editing skills. The computer tech guy said a hack had the potential to crash my system so I was afraid. Why can't Adobe update their list of approved cards? I don't get it?! It is a CUDA card and seems to meet the specifications otherwise. Now my son wants to upgrade to CS6. Is a hack my only option?

     
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    Apr 26, 2012 12:02 PM   in reply to mmaderek

    For now, that's your only option. At least on initial release, the Adobe list of supported cards in CS6 for Windows remains completely unchanged from CS5.5.

     

    And it beats me that Adobe has certified the Quadro 2000 - a GPU that's based on a much less powerful GPU than the GTX 560 Ti (in this case, the Quadro 2000 is based on an underclocked GTS 450) - in addition to certifying the GTX 570 and GTX 580. (And as I noted, the GTX 680 is not included because it is still too new to have been tested sufficiently by Adobe engineers.)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2012 12:56 PM   in reply to mmaderek

    @mmaderek

    Don’t worry as the hack is merely editing a text file I believe. I personally wouldn’t have any qualms about this sort of hack as its inconsequential. Any card that officially supports CUDA and has 1GB of RAM or more is okay with the more CUDA cores the better.

    Adobe just don’t want to spend the money to validate every card which makes sense. nVidia should check for general CUDA compatibility and that is the issue.

     
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    Apr 26, 2012 8:37 PM   in reply to mmaderek

    The computer tech guy said a hack had the potential to crash my system

     

    He was not correct about that.

     

    I'd venture there are probably more hacked cards in use out there than officially supported cards.  I mean, there's only three non-Quardo, still in production cards on that list.

     
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    Apr 26, 2012 11:49 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    The computer tech guy said a hack had the potential to crash my system

     

    He was not correct about that.

     

    I'd venture there are probably more hacked cards in use out there than officially supported cards.  I mean, there's only three non-Quardo, still in production cards on that list.

    Actually, only two. The GTX 470 is EOL (meaning that it's no longer in production, but may still be available at some resellers).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 26, 2012 11:57 PM   in reply to eclipse_crow

    Have a look at the number of cards that have been 'hacked' without any problems. Notice that these charts only show cards with at least 10 observations in the database, so the Quadro 5000 and 6000 do not show up due to the small number of observations, as are missing cards like the GTX 680, also because of too small a sample.

     

    http://ppbm5.com/MPE%20Charts.php

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Apr 27, 2012 5:59 AM   in reply to mmaderek

    FWIW, I haven't encountered any issues with my MSI 560 Ti 2GB card since getting it in December.  Your results may vary, of course, but I don't regret getting that card.

     

    Plus, it came with a great basketball game I can play during render breaks... just kidding! 

     
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