Adobe Community: Premiere CS6 Still Has a Long Way To Go

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Premiere CS6 Still Has a Long Way To Go

May 16, 2012 5:42 PM

I'm in commercial editing and work as offline editor, assistant editor and compositor. I've been using Premiere Pro ever since FCPX came out, but not in the workplace as an offline tool because of certain major missing features:

- a good EDL exporter (absolutely essential in a commercial pipeline where we're bouncing sequences to grading suites and Flame all the time)

- dupe detection (essential for prepping sequences for grading)

- timecode overlays in the monitors

- colored markers

- marker overlays (to quickly see what the content of a marker is when scrubbing in the timeline)

- searchable markers (great when needing to find one line you know you had marked)

- a visual keyboard settings editor (FCP and Avid got it right, Premiere is a mess, although improved from CS5 which didn't have the ability to search for commands)

- the ability to rename clips to match file names (can't tell you how many times I use this in FCP)

- use of CMD X, C and V for cutting, copying and pasting marked selections in the timeline without adding in/out points

- match frame edit indicators

- heal match frame edit function

- timeline to timeline editing. Not expecting what Avid offers, which is enhanced by the ability to toggle your timeline between source and record, but to be able to do what FCP7 does by letting you edit with clip data, i.e. edit your track layout and edit points from a sequence in the viewer into the timeline.

I'm super disappointed that not a single one of the above features has been addressed in Premiere Pro CS6. I think the dupe detection, timecode overlays, and EDL export are the biggest disappointments.

For a little clarity on the EDL issue, every editor and assistant I know renames clips after they're imported into the project. They don't use the "Scene" and "Take" metadata tags, because they want the clip name on the far left of the project window. This isn't so much of an issue in Avid, but that software is on a different level. Anyways, in Premiere, once you rename a clip, that's the way the clip name is going to come out out in the EDL. This is a massive problem for Alexa and RED jobs, which is most of what I work with, because timecode isn't going to be unique to a clip on a multi-day, multi-cam shoot. In FCP7, you have the option to export your EDL with either clip or file names. Alternatively, you can select all the clips from your edit and choose "Rename Clip to Match File Name." Premiere has none of these options. The only workaround is to go through every clip in your edit, reveal in project, bring up the properties, copy the file name that's there, then paste into the clip name. This is not a workable solution for a 60 second commercial with an edit every 12-48 frames.

While Speedgrade is lovely, no one is going to convince Company 3, The Mill, MPC, Light Iron, or New Hat to switch from Resolve, Scratch, Baselight or Pablo. And to get stuff into those systems, EDLs are still the preferred method when you talk to the assistants who are loading the projects.

On the good side, it's great to see improved playback stability and scrubbing, the new audio meters are great, adjustment layers are a big help, the marker tab in the project pane has a lot of potential (why not make it searchable?), and the new trim tool is GREAT and right on par with Avid.

With the exception of the playback control, though, I would trade all of the above improvements to have the hit list above taken care of. Adobe seems to have added some very good big picture, high profile improvements. It's the little things that you encounter every day in a long edit that really need some attention now. PLEASE give a look to this stuff.

I had really hoped I'd be able to use PP CS6 as an offline tool in my pipeline, but that's not going to happen. Nor do I know any editors or assistants in commercial post in LA who will want to work without the above features.

If anyone has some insights into the above features and maybe making these things work in CS6 as currently released, I'm open to hearing them and hopeful that there are workarounds.

Thanks and have a blessed day!

6320 Views 24 Replies Latest reply: coffeeten, Oct 20, 2012 3:44 PM

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1. Kevin Monahan,

May 8, 2012 3:42 PM in reply to apelike_22

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Hi,
You can always make feature requests for these items: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish.
The more requests, the more likely they'll get done.

I understand your frustration about not getting every request you wanted. Unfortunately, we have a limited amount of time and resources for each cycle.
We'll get there with many of these feature requests in time. We've promised a new release every year, so hang in there.
We know we have more to do, but in the mean time, I hope you enjoy Premiere Pro CS6.

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2. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 4:01 PM in reply to Kevin Monahan

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Hi there Kevin,

Thanks for your response and I'm sorry my initial reaction was so negative. The application feels extremely fast and the playback quality is a gigantic improvement. I've made those feature requests in the past, so hopefully those come through and we'll see them in future releases. I guess my main concern is that the EDL export, dupe frame detection and match frame edit/through edit indicators have been dialed in for so long on Avid and FCP and are so essential to an offline pipeline in the area of post I work in, it was surprising to see them unchanged in what was expected to a game-changing release.

I'm excited to dive into the application further and put it to use on a job, though. I think the speed and quality of playback control alone make it worthwhile. Absolutely fantastic trim mode, as well.

Best,
Jon

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3. Kevin Monahan,

May 8, 2012 4:19 PM in reply to apelike_22

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No worries, Jon. We actually LOVE feedback like this. Over the past three versions (CS5, CS5.5, and now CS6), in particular, we have been pushing extra hard to get in features for pro users. In CS5, we got the Mercury Playback Engine, CS5.5, we got some important elements in for editing workflow. In CS6, we redesigned the interface and added more workflow items. Now that the interface is new, and the Mercury Playback Engine keeps getting better, you can bet you'll start to see some features for high end post. We can't please everybody in every release, but we do our best to prioritize. As you might imagine, these are difficult decisions to make.

Keep making feature requests (and get your friends to do the same!), to let us know what you want most. Feature requests are like "votes". The more we get for any particular item, the more seriously we look at it as a candidate for the next release.

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4. Jim Simon,

May 8, 2012 5:46 PM in reply to apelike_22

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If anyone has some insights into the above features and maybe making these things work in CS6 as currently released, I'm open to hearing them and hopeful that there are workarounds.

You can always rearrange the metadata columns to show the ones you want closer to the name. Perhaps this will appease the editors who want to keep changing the clip names sufficiently that they will stop doing that, which would resolve one of your EDL issues.

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5. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 6:15 PM in reply to Kevin Monahan

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Very good to know about the feature requests. The catch-22 is that it's a tough sell to my colleagues to take on a new piece of software when they know a key feature is missing.

I think assistants will be key to getting Premiere into more commercial post houses, by the way. They tend to be younger and more interested in trying new ways of doing things. A lot of them are familiar with Premiere from using budget PCs, which you never see in the post shops in LA. But if they know going in that they can't see dupe frames or easily prep an EDL for a session, it's a tough sell to get them to use it enough to submit a feature request. Having features geared specifically to the tasks assistants get saddled with all the time - EDLs, dupe detection, marking clips, timecode overlays for syncing, etc. - will make it a much easier sell.

I can't say it enough though, the playback is really outstanding and overall CS6 is a huge improvement. We use it as a conform and client playback tool for finishing sessions (compositing in After Effects and Nuke), and I ran some troublesome sequences from our last project through CS6 and it played them back like butter. For online work, we don't use a lot of the features required by offline from an editorial standpoint, so it's a perfect tool as is for that.

So much time is spent transcoding for offline that a few of my peers might want to take the plunge despite the little things it's still missing. With the time savings they could rename their clips to match the file names prior to maing an EDL! Keep up the excellent work! You guys are great!

Jon

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6. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 6:17 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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Fingers crossed I can sell some folks on that. I'm worried that their eyes are going to glaze over as soon as I tell them they have to name clips in the metadata columns instead of the clip name column. Old dogs, new tricks : ) Thanks very much for the suggestion, btw. That's should be a perfect fix!

Jon

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7. shooternz,

May 8, 2012 6:27 PM in reply to apelike_22

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I am not exactly sure what your EDL issue is Jon?

I have had no real issues...and I did expect some...when using EDLs between my suite (CS5.5 Win 7 ) and other facilities - Resolve / Flame ( Mac Platform).

I was concerned that the cryptic numerical based source filenames (in folders instead of 'reels') would throw the workflow for a loop .
In practice...I discovered that the EDL workflow was smarter than that had no issues at all. Seems as if it "searched" for the filenames wherever they were.

Must admit it is a real pain exporting an EDL from Premiere when using multiple video layers. Needs some pre organisation of the layers and then the need to export each layer separately ( like an old A/B roll). Problem is one has to check all the EDL Export optins for each of the layers. Time consuming.

I use an additional application called 'EDL ToolKit' to sort the mess.

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8. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 6:40 PM in reply to shooternz

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Thanks for the tip on EDL Toolkit. I'll look into that.

The issue is that the workflow I normally use, coming from FCP7, and what my peers who are on FCP7 use, is to rename clips to reflect scene/take info after ingesting. When you export an EDL from Premiere, it only uses these clip names (all other EDL data is good, though). With RED and Alexa, the clip name replaces the reel name as the most important piece of data, so the EDL is effectively useless unless each event contains a clip name that is exactly the same as the filenames in the RED or Alexa directories. If you rename some clips, drop them in a sequence, then make an EDL of that sequence, the source filename is nowhere to be found.

I always make a separate EDL for each video track layer. I've had too many problems in FCP7 when you try to put all layers into one EDL. I think that's why Avid's EDL Manager doesn't even give you that option.

It seems the key at this point is to apply the Avid workflow of leaving the clip names alone and adding scene/take info to a different column, which you then move over as far left as it can go. I really like how Premiere has worked in some very Avid-like workflows (the new trim mode is right on par with Avid's now, I think) and feels in a lot of ways like a 50/50 between FCP7 and Avid.

Of course the real key will be to get XML really dialed in so none of this matters, but until then... EDLs it must be!

Jon

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9. Jim Simon,

May 8, 2012 6:42 PM in reply to apelike_22

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The issue is that the workflow I [and] my peers use is to rename clips to reflect scene/take info after ingesting.

Oh, that's so old school. In this age of tapeless media, it's definitely time to embrace metadata.

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10. shooternz,

May 8, 2012 6:47 PM in reply to apelike_22

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The issue is that the workflow I normally use, coming from FCP7, and what my peers who are on FCP7 use, is to rename clips to reflect scene/take info after ingesting.

I guess that workflow comes from the FCP transcoding (log) process when it is easy to rename the duplicated clip.

I never rename clips / files but do use the Description Columns in the Project Window .

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11. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 7:15 PM in reply to Jim Simon

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Totally agree. Unfortunately on the assisting level, it's difficult to tell editors who've won Oscars to do things a different way then they're used to. : ) I've broken down projects in a way that takes more advantage of metadata and had to completely redo it because an editor's specs called for something different.

I think the main issue is that most folks coming to Premiere are coming from FCP7, where this wasn't a problem. Simply being able to rename a clip based on filename or pull a filename instead of, or in addition to, a clip name into an EDL seems like it shouldn't be a big deal and adds a great deal of flexibility in terms of letting the user dictate how the tool is used and not vice versa (i.e. the Apple mindset).

Also, and I don't know why this is happening and would love some input, I have a bunch of Alexa dailies transcoded to ProRes Proxy for offline editing via DaVince Resolve and the tape name metadata field, which should be populated with the reel name, is blank. FCP7 sees it, so something's in there somewhere, but no luck with Premiere. Any ideas?

Really appreciate the responses, btw. The owner of the company I'm at is very keen on Premiere and has no interest in going back to Avid or moving to the nuttiness that is FCPX. So hopefully we can get a good workflow in place with these ideas and have a nice start to finish system.

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12. apelike_22,

May 8, 2012 7:17 PM in reply to shooternz

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Actually, scratch my reel name question. It's blank in FCP as well. Might be a DIT error.

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13. Jim Simon,

May 8, 2012 7:38 PM in reply to apelike_22

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it's difficult to tell editors who've won Oscars to do things a different way then they're used to.

Well...you just don't put it that way. What you're trying to do is provide a solution that allows those editors to switch to the superior Premiere Pro, which does require some rethinking about work flows.

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14. Jim Curtis,

May 9, 2012 9:54 AM in reply to apelike_22

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apelike_22 wrote:

- use of CMD X, C and V for cutting, copying and pasting marked selections in the timeline without adding in/out points

I believe these work now, unless you have a meaning that I'm not comprehending. Otherwise, I think your list is correct and spot on. Please see my post about Pr CS7 feature requests.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4363279#4363279

Although I welcome any improvements to Pr, I think this upgrade has fallen way short of what's important to working editors. Seems to me that Adobe put a lot of emphasis on laptop usage (condensing the interface, Hover Scan), and features for a market segment (people who make Blu-Rays and Web DVDs or use MPEG, still camera and RED sources), and NOT a lot of useful functions which could benefit everybody.

I guess these are godsends for those people, but I'm feeling left out. I also detect features that are FCPX-like dumb downs (such as stabilization, rolling shutter repair) to attract amateurs. These things are being handled perfectly well by third-party plugs. I don't appreciate the software bloat for stuff I don't use.

On the plus side, I'm eagerly anticipating using Mercury Transmit, but AJA hasn't delivered a driver that will bring this feature to fruition for me yet. That, if it works as advertised, will be worth the price of the upgrade, to me.

I upgraded from CS5.5 for $375. I got SpeedGrade (which I have yet to figure out, or determine whether it's superior to Ae for finishing... which I kind of doubt, but I'm trying to keep an open mind), and upgrades to Ae (the new caching will be great), and the other apps I mostly use as utilities, and had no real need for new features. I'm a pro. The expense is tax-deductible. On balance, the upgrade price is a bargain. I may yet decide that the new Ps features make me irresistable to women.

I'm already seeing better response in CS6 when dragging the CTI, and that's a plus, but I don't think it should have sucked in the first place. Avid and Apple's NLEs didn't suffer from this deficient behavior (and are still superior). Not sure why it was ever an issue.

If it weren't for CUDA support, I'd be considering switching back to MC6 (which does most of the things on my feature request list) for most of my editing work. This upgrade falls short of my expectations. Adobe's promise of "a new release every year" sounds regressive, even. At this rate, where a paltry list of new features is incorporated, I'll be retired before Pr becomes the NLE of my dreams. And if they persist on adding features I don't want, I doubt it ever will.

I can still work with it, to be sure. And I'll work around it's limitations. I always have, no matter what NLE I use. And I too apologize to the Adobe folks here for the critique of their products. I'm glad to see them here on the forums, and truly appreciate their ear and their input. Adobe has my money for the upgrade, and I suppose that's what matters most to Adobe. But, I think buying the ticket gives me a right to review the product.

And yes, I'll be submitting my extensive list of feature requests to Adobe. I wish others would join me, as we're told that volume matters. I find it hard to believe that there was a resounding chorus who wanted Web DVD support over more useful and basic functions, but perhaps I live in a sheltered niche.

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15. Kevin Monahan,

May 9, 2012 10:38 AM in reply to Jim Curtis

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Please, get those feature requests in: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

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16. Jim Simon,

May 9, 2012 10:47 AM in reply to Jim Curtis

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NOT a lot of useful functions which could benefit everybody.

I see a LOT of the new features as fulfilling that requirement (or at least, a LOT of editors, keeping in mind you can't please everybody), such as adjustment layers, Mercury Transmit, Standard audio tracks, the new trimming tools, etc.

In fact, I see a lot of the things you're requesting as barely useful for myself. (Not all, mind you. Some I agree with. But a lot of them I can already do in After Effects, and some others I just will never need.)

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17. Kevin Monahan,

May 9, 2012 11:00 AM in reply to Jim Simon

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As an editor, I'm a trim machine. That's why I appreciate the trim mode and all the timeline keyboard shortcuts. I can now do some stuff that I could never do in other NLEs.

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18. apelike_22,

May 9, 2012 11:24 AM in reply to Jim Curtis

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The command copy, cut paste don't work unless you add edits to create a
discreet clip. You can't simply copy from an in to an out point. The
workaround is to add your markers, use lift or extract, undo to clear the
damage you just did to your sequence, then paste the clipboard contents
that you still have from the lift or extract operation.

Regarding Speedgrade, it appears to be in its infancy and has a promising
future, but what you get for free from Davinci Resolve Lite is wildly
awesome. It does everything the $1000 version of DaVinci does except
stereoscopic color, network rendering, shared projects, and shared memories
between projects (i.e. power mastering). So, for free, you have a blazing
fast color grade suite with the identical toolset actively in use by
Company 3 and The Mill. Add a panel or two and you're really rockin and
rolling. We use it at the shop I'm freelancing at now and it can burn
through dailies transcodes (still essential for Red and Alexa), at about
40fps. Awesome.

I think choosing between Avid MC and Premiere is strictly a "what do you
need it for" question. The main problem with Avid is now and always has
been the hard import aspect. AMA works kinda ok, but I know no one who
starts and finishes a project strictly with AMA. Plus it doesn't work on
an average laptop without a lot of herky jerky playback, even at 10:1, and
at some point on a long edit, you're likely going to be working off a
laptop.

The ability of Premiere to ingest ANYTHING immediately, including DPX
sequences, is phenomenal. If you don't want to wait for AJA, Blackmagic
has some excellent and more affordable video I/O solutions that work with
CS6 right now. The playback is so much better than CS5.5. I think the
reason why it was a problem before was because it's trying to play nice
with anything as it is. FCP needed everything to be a quicktime. Avid
needs everything to be MXF. Premiere says "come one come all!" and that's
a tall, tall order. Now it's working great and the Adobe folks should be
lauded for whatever engineering magic they used to make this happen. Huge
timesaver, especially in finishing when I need to bounce more complex comp
work to Nuke and back.

The second thing that Premiere kills at is effects work, even though it's
not so much Premiere as it is After Effects. Avid has nothing there close
to this. Animatte? Spectramatte? Give me After Effects any day. So, you
can offline AND online a project with the Premiere and After Effects combo.
Awesome!

The biggest shortcoming Premiere has, I think, is it's audio filter suite.
It's a huge liability and something I hope they devote a lot of attention
to. The way Avid can't match the Premiere/After Effects duo,
Premiere/Soundbooth cannot match what Avid has built in. The Audiosuite
effects seemed to be designed to give you a bit of ProTools within your
NLE.

I think the best solution, at least until Smoke 2013 comes out this fall,
seems to be to choose the app that is best suited for your project. I
don't think the conversation should be about one program wiping out another
one, which it seemed to often be the tone of Avid vs. FCP debates.

The more I play with Premiere CS6, the more I like it. I used 5 and 5.5 on
commercials a few times and felt like the software was getting in the way,
particularly toward the end when I needed to generate EDLs and OMFs (I
haven't tried the OMF export out of Premiere CS6 yet, but it can't be worse
than 5.5 - my guess is it's no better though, based on what did and did not
get improved). It was fine for finishing, but you'd have to work around
playback issues all the time, which got a bit embarrassing with clients in
the room.

I think CS6, for it's numerous shortcomings - none of which are
catastrophic or deal-breakers - provides an excellent foundation on which
to build something that could definitely one day pick where FCP7 left off.

Smoke 2013 is the storm on the horizon, though, if you ask me. But
competition is GREAT and I actually hope Blackmagic joins the game as well.
The more the merrier!

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19. Jim Curtis,

May 9, 2012 2:12 PM in reply to apelike_22

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apelike_22 wrote:

The biggest shortcoming Premiere has, I think, is it's audio filter suite.
It's a huge liability and something I hope they devote a lot of attention
to. The way Avid can't match the Premiere/After Effects duo,
Premiere/Soundbooth cannot match what Avid has built in. The Audiosuite
effects seemed to be designed to give you a bit of ProTools within your
NLE.

Again, I find myself mostly in agreement with you on this post. However, the audio in Pr is very similar to what Avid offers: both clip and track based effects, which are both real-time, as long as your CPU can keep up.

My complaints against CS6 audio are listed in my feature request thread.

The included audio plugs may not be to your liking, but Pr does accept third-party 64-bit VST plugs.

I use PSP Vintage Warmer as my go-to compressor/limiter, and the PSP MixPack for gating, saturation, etc. And I have WaveArts MasterVerb and TrackPlug channel strip. That's about all I need to produce good sounding tracks.

And Pr has submix tracks and sends, which Avid does not. None of the other Mac NLEs have this feature (of which I'm aware).

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Avid does surround, does it? Unless you use discrete outputs via hardware?

The major shortcoming is/was the Spectral Noise Reducer, which didn't work at all for me on CS5.5. I have yet to check out if it's been fixed for CS6. Luckily, the BBNR in Audition/Soundbooth (CS5) works very well, and was available when needed.

I'd be interested in hearing how you think Avid does audio better.

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20. Kevin Monahan,

May 9, 2012 2:16 PM in reply to apelike_22

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Thanks for the post. A slight correction:

"The way Avid can't match the Premiere/After Effects duo, Premiere/Soundbooth cannot match what Avid has built in. The Audiosuite effects seemed to be designed to give you a bit of ProTools within your NLE."

Soundbooth no longer the audio application, it's now Adobe Audition. Audition CS6 is getting some great reviews, and being lauded by hardcore audio guys. If you look at CS6, and see at features we've integrated into Premiere Pro from Audition, you can predict our thinking for future versions.

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21. apelike_22,

May 9, 2012 2:31 PM in reply to Jim Curtis

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Hey Jim,

This is super helpful info. I haven't gotten nearly as deep into audio
plugs for Premiere as much as you. All the work I do comes before a mix
session, which is where the real heavy lifting is done. Generally all I
need is good pitch shifting, reverb and EQ. Everything else is taken care
of by people who actually know what they're doing

I'm pretty sure Avid offers surround sound solutions in MC6, but I haven't
needed it on a job yet so I don't know for sure. The quality of the
filters in the Avid Audiosuite has really blown me away, in particular the
reverb, pitch shifting, and pitch retention during speed changes. The
built in filters for Premiere are sorely lacking in this regard. I'll
definitely give those plug-in sets a look, though.

Regarding noise reduction, have you played around with Izotope Rx at all?
I used it in Soundtrack Pro on a project a couple years ago and it was
insanely good. It came recommended from a pro audio mixer I had just
worked with. At the time, it wasn't spectral, but did an excellent job of
wiping out noise.

Again, thanks for the input!

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22. Jim Curtis,

May 9, 2012 2:55 PM in reply to apelike_22

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I haven't tried Izotope Rx.

The stock BBNR in STP is pretty good. I've used that often, as well.

I'm waiting for BIAS to update SoundSoap for 64-bits, so I can use that in Pr. I use it in Digital Performer, and it's pretty effective and easy to use, and works in real-time, unlike the BBNR in Au/Soundbooth and STP (which require rendering), and like the Pr Spectral NR should.

I also use Digital Performer for very clean time-stretching. I use Time Scaling coupled with Pitch Shifting in Pr for off-line usage, but it's pretty crunchy.

I've got an MC6 license, and I've only fired it up a few times, just to poke around mostly, and also to do some conversions from Avid MXF to QT to use in Pr. The third-party video support works extremely well for shuttling and viewing, but I still think I can cut faster in Pr, due to more flexible timeline editing. That's why I'm not fully informed about the current MC6 audio capabilities.

I'm a one-stop shop and work out of my home doing corporate videos and TV commercials, so I have to be up to speed on most of the post functions, such as mixing and finishing. I also record and mix my jam band as a "hobby," and that's how I learned a lot of what I know about audio. I spend way too much time on computers.

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23. apelike_22,

May 9, 2012 3:10 PM in reply to Jim Curtis

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I hear ya. I spend most of time compositing these days and get into
editing when the need arises. I enjoy it and it pays the bills, but the
competition for work is much less intense in compositing than it is in
editing in commercials in LA. Very hard to make the transition from
freelance assistant to editor. It's apparently easier to do so in tv and
features, from what I've been told.

I really need to know more about audio. I used to work at a DVD audio
mastering house that did home theater surround mixes for New Line movies,
including Lord of the Rings. You'd think I would have picked something up.
Alas, not so much. They worked off of Sadie systems and did a lot of
spectral repair on some James Bond remasters, using a program I'm blanking
on.

Seems like the timeline in CS6 feels more fluid than CS5.5, probably just
because of the playback control being so much more solid. Avid takes a
little getting used to, but once you get your keyboard dialed in, it can
really, really scream. I used it at work almost exclusively for several
years. When commercial budgets started crashing you'd see a lot more FCP
work, but then FCPX came out and it's starting to move back to Avid.
Hoping Premiere can make some in roads though. Smoke 2013 might really
change the game, though. We'll see!

Way, way, way too much time on computers. Beats workin, as they say!

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24. coffeeten,

Oct 20, 2012 3:44 PM in reply to apelike_22

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Did anyone mention freeze frame? or the constant warning of outpoints not matching? The Sequence outpoint always wins!!!!!!

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