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Currently Being Moderated

Trap query

May 18, 2012 1:33 PM

Tags: #color #black #pantone #rich #trapping #trap

I have a document to be printed with a black background with red text which is small, usually 10 pt, I need to trap this so there is no white around the red text, which is Pantone 200.

 

The printer has asked me to do this.

 

I have never modified Trapping before so I need help.

 

1. What do I change in the Modify Trap Preset Options? The default options are:

Trap width:

Default: 0.088 mm

Black: 0.176 mm

 

Trap Appearance:

Join & End style : mitre

 

Trap Placement: Centre

All but "Trap Images internally" are selected

 

Trap Thresholds:

Step: 10%

Black Colour: 100%

Black Density: 1.6

Sliding Trap: 70%

Trap Colour Reduction: 100%

 

2. Do I make a new preset or just change the default?

 

3. The current ink manager settings:

Process Black: Normal Type; 1.7 Density; Sequence 4

Pantone 200C: Normal Type; 0.9585 Density; Sequence 5.

 

4. Black colour is rich black: 40, 0, 0, 100

 

 

I am using INDD 5.5, Mac

 

Thanks for any help before Monday!

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 18, 2012 1:38 PM   in reply to James_233

    InDesign's trapping has served me well without ever modifying the defaults.

    Are you making plates or supplying a pdf which they will plate from?

     

    btw, every other response will say find a new printer.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 18, 2012 2:07 PM   in reply to James_233

    OK, on behalf of Adobe ...

     

    First of all, in terms of your design, be very careful about small type on dark backgrounds. 10pt could be borderline unless bold and sans serif. You might want to first try printing your content out to a laser printer and see whether the red type on black background is really readable. If not, consider changes to your content.

     

    Secondly and most importantly, best practice is for trapping to be done by the RIP, not manually in any process prior to the RIP process. You should not be setting any trapping settings at all! There are very few cases where manually mucking with trapping should be at all required. The fact that your print service provider is asking you to do his work should be a very big M=100%,Y=100% (=Red) flag in terms of the capabilities and professionalism of your printer.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 18, 2012 2:18 PM   in reply to James_233

    The printer would is a dolt.

    File > Print

    I't would be best to have their Printer PPD available, but lacking that you can create seps to Acrobat with Trapping.

    Set up similair to this example, note I selected Postscript File, you might just go staright to PDF Printer.

     

    Deselect any unused colors, toggle on the Spot colors needed (and black?)

     

    If you choose to save a postscript file, navigate to the folder where you saved it; double click that to launch Distiller which will create the pdf.

    Open the pdf, Choose File > Properties

    - On the Advanced Tab, Tapped should show Yes

     

    Zoom way in (4000%) on the final trapped pdf, at the trap areas (coners) - you'll see the trap

     

    ID Seps to ps.JPG

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 18, 2012 4:02 PM   in reply to James_233

    You can also make a trapped composite CMYK pdf via postscript and Distiller by choosing InRip Separations. ID's trapping has no effect when you Export a PDF. With a composite PDF you can easily view the traps. But if there is a trapping problem on press who will pay?

     

    Screen shot 2012-05-18 at 6.53.25 PM.png

     

    In Acrobat you can see the trap. You could increase the spread via the Black Trap Width in Indesign. If the job is CMYK + Pantone 200, using a rich black would be better

    Screen shot 2012-05-18 at 6.52.19 PM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 5:07 AM   in reply to James_233

    Seriously, this is something that should be done by the prepress tech when the file is RIPed.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 5:10 AM   in reply to James_233

    While Peter is correct that this should be done in prepress, I would go so far as to say that if this design is presenting this kind of headache the entire idea should be revisited.

     

    Bob

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 5:32 AM   in reply to James_233

    Without seeing the error report, the file and the preflight profile, it's pretty hard to tell what they are, but it could be as simple as registration marks. ID always outputs CMYand K plates even if they are not all being used. It could also be something serious like a CMYK to CMYK conversion at export that is changing your color mixes, particularly making your 100%K objects into some 4-color mix.

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 6:26 AM   in reply to James_233

    I enlarged the pdf to 6400% and could find no white. However, the problem does exist at the printing stage, so can anyone suggest how I can increase the trap width and by how much?

     

     

    You wouldn't necessarily see white in any case because the color's aren't off register when viewed on screen. To see if the red is trapping you would turn of the black separation in Output Preview like this where the top is trapped and the bottom isn't:

     

    Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 9.09.00 AM.png

     

    To increase the trap width you have to change the default Trap Black Width in the InDesign Trap Presets panel, then choose Application Built-In for Trapping when you save your postscript file.

     

    Do you have to provide a PDF? Why not give the printer an ID package then they can decide what trap settings to use?

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 6:48 AM   in reply to James_233

    When I ran a few tests on the pdf I created the report stated there were over 3000 colour errors.

     

     

    I just noticed in your first post that you are using cyan so the job is CMYK + 200? If not maybe that's the source of your color errors. A correctly trapped 4-color rich black would let you use any readable point size—the cmy + 200 would look like this:

     

    Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 9.37.51 AM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 7:24 AM   in reply to James_233

    What are you capturing? Is this CMY+200 (black turned off). Show us the black plate only, and then the red plate only

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 7:38 AM   in reply to James_233

    There's no trap and your 100|82|56|80 rich black probably isn't a good idea. Less density and more neutral is typical something like 65|50|50|100

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 7:41 AM   in reply to James_233

    And the black is 80%. Looks like you are getting a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion. So your printer won't take an InDesign file?

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 12:01 PM   in reply to James_233

    In this case you really don't want to provide a PDF you're taking on too much prepress responsibility—you should send the printer the ID file.

     

    Assuming a trapped PDF is the only option, set the rich black swatch in ID to 65|50|50|100 and in the Print dialog set the Output and Color Management panels to:

     

     

    Color should be In-Rip Separations and Trapping Application Built-In

    Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.57.41 AM.png

    The Printer Profile needs to be Document CMYK

     

    Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.58.15 AM.png

     

    In distiller set the default to PDF/X-1a

     

    Screen shot 2012-05-19 at 10.58.45 AM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 19, 2012 8:33 AM   in reply to James_233

    Is this job really 5 colors?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 20, 2012 8:59 AM   in reply to James_233

    This is not your problem or responsibility. You and we are chasing a wild animal here. Is this effectively a 2 color job question, actually 2 colors on press, or is the spot 200 running as a fifth color or cmyk equivilant? 

     

    My printer has only started using pdfs in the last couple of years. He always insisted on having the original package (Quark or InDesign) because he found that pdfs caused "slippage" which were difficult to fix. I haven't asked him yet if the problems were just in Quark-created pdfs or all of them.

     

    Neither the file format nor creative application has anything to do with press registration. The native file requirement statment lends me to believe that their prepress was adding overprinting strokes, but I would have a hard time believing that they could do this in any manageable way. (The paragraph flow would kill them unless they created curves...)

     

    The statement about the quality and attention to detail is contrary to the original post - A knowledgeable/capable dept/facility would never prefer client trapped files...

     

    In a nutshell - 

    They may or may not have in-RIP trap ability. This sounds like they do not; if they do, their press is so far out of registration they think you can submit files to compensate for that.

     

    You can supply trapped files, but you cannot solve their problem. Walk away. While you have learned a few things, you're dedicating to much valuable time in an area not necessary to your function.

     
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  • Rob Day
    3,122 posts
    Oct 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2012 6:28 AM   in reply to James_233

    Adding crop marks would have no effect on trapping.

     

    Building press ready PDFs takes some experience and including traps would be very unusual, there could be other problems with your PDF which you won't spot.

     

    Also, unless there are large areas of red ink coverage, there isn't much reason to run the 5th color—Pantone 200 is well inside the CMYK gamut.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 21, 2012 7:31 AM   in reply to James_233

    woah: Listen to what Rob, Bob, Daniel, Peter and Dov are saying....

     

     

     

    Why are you trap [ing]....

     

     

     

    This is NOT your responsibility to have to do, for the printer to ask YOU to do this is ridiculous. What next, will he ask you to set the screen angles?

     

     

     

    I dont buy his reasoning/thought process here... sounds like he wants to create possies by printing separations directly from your PDF!!! Geeze mate, use someone else!!!!!!! Absolutely diabolical.

     

     

    This (among other things) is BEST done by the RIP (which he obv doesn't have, instead prob uses a postscript printer to make his possies)

     

    oh dear....

     

    (well thats my rant of the day...)

     

    G

     
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