I need some advice but don't really know any other video forums like this one.
I've been googling 'best camcorder under $3000' - - I figured i could get some help here listing my needs.
I haven't been keeping up on all the new HD technology. I've been using my Canon XL2 and XL1 for the last 10 years. Here at our Non-Profit organization we have in the budget for around roughly $6000. The boss wants 2 new HD cameras. I already have 2 heavy tripods, lighting kits, mics, misc video equipment.
We use 2 cameras for a 2 camera shoot sometimes but the 2nd camera (used mostly for the wide shot to cut to) isn't as important. Could we buy 2 different cameras at different prices? One main cam, being the more expensive camera and the 2nd cam less expensive since it will not get used that often and only as a wide shot cam (pretty much always outdoors). so spend $4K on the main cam and 2K on the other? does that make sense? Only prob i see is the change of picture -- i could fix in post though.
We are involved in youth sports and deal with parks & rec departments. I do a lot of interviews indoors as well as shooting kids sports. Are clients in the past were mainly viewing DVD and some even VHS but now in the day of web delivery we are moving forward. 50% of our videos are viewed online and we only see that increasing.
Coming from the XL2 do you guys have any recommendations? It's basically the only camera I've ever worked with. Some of the smaller HD cameras I have seen seem like a wireless mic receiver would be hard to mount on the camera with getting in the way -- i don't know though.
Within that budget range a Canon XF100 would be a nice choice, or even the XF105 if genlocking and HD-SDI is important in your workflow. You could go for either two Canons, or use a smaller Panasonic TM-900 as the B-camera, since it has the advantage of recording at 50/60p if required, and that may be the case for sports events.
Personally I use the Canon XF300, but that is out of your budget range, complemented by an old Sony Z1, a compact Panasonic TM700, and a Crocolis HD sports camera. Occasionally I also use a Sony PMW-350 XDCAM.
Heavy tripods may not be an advantage. It is all about load (what does the rig weigh), COG (center of gravity) and 2:2:1 legs for two stage setups, or 2:2 for single stage. If you have decent Vinten 2:2:1 legs, a 75 mm bowl and possibly a V5AS head, then you will have a problem finding perfect balance with a XF100, you will have a hell of a time with a small camera like the TM-900, it will be a disaster to handle with such a head.
Tripod choice is even more difficult than choosing the right camera. I know because I have been struggling with the choice for months, but since the investment is $ 3K+, I want to make the right decision.
I have been using almost exclusively Panasonic gear for a while now. Have used some Canon gear and some Sony on occasion, but very rare, and I prefer the Panasonic "look" and the way everything is laid out.
Your best bang for your buck right now is the Panasonic AC130. It's $3,249 right now at B&H. Excellent camera, probably a pretty good replacement for your XL2 (it has an extremely long integrated lens). Records to SDHC media in the AVCHD format. We've got a couple and they're very good. There are some features on those AC130 cams that make it really stand out above similar cameras.
You could also consider the HMC150, the predecessor to the AC130. It's only a couple hundred bucks cheaper and not nearly as good, but if you really felt like you had to shave off a couple hundred bucks, that's one way you could do it.
Going down the financial ladder, Panasonic has the shoulder mount HMC80. It's not quite as good overall as the AC130, but it does have a shoulder mount form factor so that might be important to some people. It's affordable though, at around the $2,000 mark right now, and would match pretty well with the other Panasonic cameras.
My advice would be to up the budget and go in for two of the AC130 cameras. You're looking at a total of $6,500 for two of those.
In a somewhat different direction, you may want to check out the soon-to-be-released Blackmagic Design Cinema camera. It doesn't include a lens but will work with most types of lenses and shoots 2.5K resolution. It's setup to be a real gamechanger when it ships in a couple of months. It's only $3,000 list price, so expect to see the price go down slightly after it ships, but I also imagine that demand is going to be incredibly high so if you want that one, and you need it this year, you might want to consider a pre-order.
Some things to consider with tapeless workflows using SDHC cards....do not go cheap on the cards! Buy the best cards available, and buy only from reputable vendors (like B&H) and NOT from ebay or other spots (you'll just end up with knock-off cards that probably won't work). For the AC130, don't buy a 3rd party battery, they don't save you that much money and most of them have an exponential roll-off discharge pattern, so 50% remaining charge isn't "really" 50% (the Panasonic batteries discharge in a linear pattern). The Panasonic batteries also usually have 20% more charge capacity, something that helps you understand why they cost about 20% more in most cases. Also, the Panasonic batteries on the AC130, AC160, AF100 and HPX250 are the same battery, so you have some flexibility for "future-proofing," and that battery will tell you exactly how much time is remaining. If it says you have 2 minutes remaining, you have exactly 120 seconds left on the battery (sometimes very slightly more, but the point is you KNOW how much is left). The 3rd party batteries don't update the remaining charge time, and even if they did, it would be unreliable because of the previously mentioned exponential discharge pattern.
Hope this helps!
PS - Here's a green screen sample we did with the HMC150 4-5 months ago:
You can see it keys very nicely (used PPro, didn't even have to open After Effects....we also did a good job lighting of course). The AC130 is a good bit better than this but we don't have any current green screen samples on it yet. This is using ONLY the default AVCHD internal recording on the camera....no Ninja, KiPro or anything like that. Just good ol' AVCHD 4:2:0 video. ![]()
Here's a list.
The two that I'd be looking at seriously are the canon XF100 and the Panasonic HMC150. The Canon probably has the sharper image, and the media is easier to work with. But the Panasonic has the longer zoom range (handy for sports), and uses superior CCDs rather than inferior CMOS chips, so you don't get any rolling shutter artifacts.
Jim Simon wrote:
Here's a list.
The two that I'd be looking at seriously are the canon XF100 and the Panasonic HMC150. The Canon probably has the sharper image, and the media is easier to work with. But the Panasonic has the longer zoom range (handy for sports), and uses superior CCDs rather than inferior CMOS chips, so you don't get any rolling shutter artifacts.
Ah, the much debated CCD vs CMOS battle rages on....
Here's an event shot with 3 cameras, 2 of which are the AC130 (CMOS sensors) and 1 camera is an HMC150 (CCD sensors). There were plenty of camera flashes going off (there were two pro photogs right at the front of the stage, nevermind the two strobing gobos). There is more than enough motion in the frame to induce the jello/skew everyone is afraid of...however, look at this CMOS camera and tell me how terrible you think the skew/jellow/flash-banding really is in a real world scenario. Keep in mind that this was shot at 24p, where the CMOS artifiacts are most clearly exhibited (compared with 60i or 60p):
Better yet, since the CCD is so much better, how about you just tell me which of the cameras you think was shooting on the HMC150? It should be obvious, right? ![]()
you just tell me which of the cameras you think was shooting on the HMC150?
Wide shot in the back.
Honestly, it looks good Christian. It gives me hope for the 130. However, I didn't really see all that many flashes in the close up shots. Not like I see at a wedding, anyway, where there could literally be 2 or 3 flashes per second.
Saeroner wrote:
^ well from 1st glance i would say the cam shooting from the right side seems clearer/better lit. is that just the camera look better low light?
The AC130 is exceptional in low light. You actually can add about 6 or 9 dB of gain before you really even start noticing any noise in the image (depends on what you're shooting of course, but it's a pretty good rule of thumb).
This video was shot with no gain, and no post processing at all (except minor color tweaking to make the reds pop more). The iris was set around 4, so we had plenty of light, although all the crazy lighting at the beginning was not very practical for our video recording purposes.
As for better lighting on either side of the stage, the camera on the right is about 5 feet closer to the stage, so it's getting "better" light bounce but that's fairly negligible.
The camera on the left is the HMC150, for reference. It doesn't have quite as much low light latitude, but it's still very very good. The AC130 is an improvement in that regard, but you really only notice it when they are shooting side by side like this, in a stage production or similar situation where you have very high contrast in the image.
Jim Simon wrote:
you just tell me which of the cameras you think was shooting on the HMC150?
Wide shot in the back.
Honestly, it looks good Christian. It gives me hope for the 130. However, I didn't really see all that many flashes in the close up shots. Not like I see at a wedding, anyway, where there could literally be 2 or 3 flashes per second.
Close, but that was an AC130 in the back. We put that there and had the HMC150 on house left since the AC130 has nearly twice as much lens and slightly better light handling. Actually, with the stage being about 80 feet from the booth camera, and only about 25 feet from the HMC150, the relative framing was nearly identical. Tells you how amazing that lens is. We were able to get nearly head-to-waist shots from the control booth on the AC130. Very nice, good exposure, although the camera is obviously more sensitive to the touch when at full telephoto like that.
One of our guys shot a wedding recently and although we don't have any clips up yet, you can see in the video that the flash banding is a non-issue on the AC130. It is there, of course (it isn't the HPX250, after all), but you only notice it if you stop the frame on a flash....but it is dramatically reduced compared to all previous CMOS cameras I've worked with. Some of the earlier ones were just flat ugly to me with the wobble, skew, flash-banding....ugh, just nasty.
Here's a piece shot with the AC130 and the AF100. You'll notice a flash behind the speaker right at about the 1:37 mark. You actually see the camera flash burst, so it's about as bad as it can get, but you'll notice it's still quite pretty for a CMOS. There are a few more flash bursts after that point as well.
Thanks for all the feedback. My only question is for my 2 camera shoot. Is there a camera say in the sub $2000 range that would work as my #2 camera. In our videos the #2 is used probably 20/25% of the time and not that important. Most videos that we do only involove 1 camera but from time to time we do 2 camera setups. I need to fit 2 cameras in the $6000 budget - - most mentioned are $3500+ on B&H.
How would this work with the AG-HMC150?
I wouldn't recommend the HMC40. It's probably a decent match for the HMC150, but lousy in a lot of little ways.
I really REALLY recommend stepping up to the AC130. If you want, you could pair it with the Panasonic GH2 which is a DSLR that records pretty amazing video. It's very affordable, and has a sensor crop function that lets you get pretty amazing reach on your lenses without something as terrible as digital zoom (barfed a little in my mouth when I said that).
Really, if you get HMC150 and save those $250, you'll bump into someone with an AC130 one day and realize what a mistake it was to save those dollars when you could have just bumped up a little to the AC130. Again, HMC150 as a b-cam, sure, absolutely. As the MAIN cam, today, in May 2012, I'd recommend against it.
North America
Europe, Middle East and Africa
Asia Pacific