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Had high hopes, wanted to switch from FCP, but still falls short on key features

May 23, 2012 1:22 PM

Tags: #premiere #editing #fcp #cs6 #shortcuts #avid

We were hoping to switch all our edit seats (20-50) from FCP to Premiere Pro, since FCP has been abandoned as a pro platform.

 

We had high hopes for CS6, but, from what I can tell, it is still missing some key functionality, rendering it unusable for us.

 

Maybe someone (Adobe employee?) can correct me, but it seems that:

 

  1. there is no "reveal in bin/project" command for a clip loaded in Source Monitor
  2. you cannot display several timecodes at once, either in the TC window, or as an overlay. I need to see TC from all video and audio tracks at once. (Info window shows it, but takes up too much room; not practical.)
  3. there is no way to see Video & Audio Waveform at the same time, in sync, in the Source Monitor (or in a separate window.)
  4. there is no shortcut for "Jump ahead 1 second" -- only 5 frames; useless for me.
  5. the "match frame" command only goes from Program to Source, not the other way around.
  6. there is no shortcut to change the Transition Alignment ("start on edit", "end on edit", "center on edit")
  7. there is no shortcut for "Dip to Black", only "Dip to White" (!!!!) Really?!?!
  8. there is no shortcut to alter transition duration; you have to go into the Effect panel.
  9. I cannot figure out how to perform simple trims from the keyboard, without going into the Trim Window ... how to select a cut and simply roll it back/forth 1 frame?
  10. Bug? If I toggle audio scrubbing, it doesn't "take" until I either hit "play" or move around timeline with the mouse -- the "skip 5 frames" functions ignore the toggle.
  11. there is no way to "page" through the timeline (like PageUp/PageDown in FCP)
  12. Fast-forward/Reverse is limited to about 5x normal speed ... too slow for us. Need at least 10-20x (FCP does 30x I believe)

 

We absolutely need these features to do our work in a timely manner; they have existed in Avid and FCP for at least 10 years. I'm amazed.

 

Maybe CS7....? We'll probably have to switch to Avid...

 

I really, really wanted to love CS6. It's super fast, and integration with After Effects is fantastic ... but need to be able to basic editing without using mouse constantly!

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 23, 2012 1:29 PM   in reply to danzg

    I don't know why these posts keep bugging me so much. This is like a Ford vs. Chevy debate. FCP and Premiere Pro are 2 different programs. They are not going to opperate the same way. I used FCP for several years, when it came time to buy my own equipment and software, Adobe was what I could afford. I found out that Adobe is the better product! And from what I have heard recently, it is even more so now.

     

    I don't have the answers to your questions above, but stop knocking Premiere for not being FCP.

     

    If you have questions on what Premiere has or doesn't have, please ask them. But keep the negative comments to yourselves. (any FCP user looking at Premiere Pro)

     

    I'm sure you'll find that any other editor you look at will be different from FCP also.

     

    Basically, don't knock it till you try it. Adobe rocks!

     
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    May 23, 2012 2:05 PM   in reply to Jason R Brandt

    I am not sure why people post like that instead of just quietly moving on  to something that suits their every  want and need.

     

    You may be wanting to be talked into it or out of it.

    You may want someone to agree with you.

    You may want someone to disagree and  to argue the points with you.

    You may be making a point.!

     

    or ...you may just want someone to tell you how to do it and all the criterai and features actually are there.

    (They are not BTW)

     

    If its "unuseable" for you...move on..who cares or has the time to change your mind.

    (I do suggest you and others in your team, give it a bit of time though.)

     

    Whatever...from the longlist...you will never get all the features you had in your  previous software... and so you wll never be satisfied.

     

    Only certainty is.... the ideal software  you had before ..aint ideal anymore.

     

    Wondering if  you  have trialled AVID yet and curious if it meets the same criteria?

     
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    May 23, 2012 2:57 PM   in reply to danzg

    1,2,3,4,5,6,8 and 12 don't exist.  If you and your team want them you'll have to file a feature request and wait till they show up.  (And they just might.  Keyboard trimming was a big one, and it's now here.  Though I personally don't like it so far.)

     

    7 is there right above Dip to White.  (Not sure how you missed that.)

     

    11 also works just fine.

     

    9 and 10 I just never use use, so someone else will have to comment.

     

    Having said all that, the first question you need to ask is this: Is the CS6 suite in it's current incarnation, including full native media support, After Effects integration, etc. a usable solution.  Meaning...will it get the job done?

     

    If yes, then the second question you have to ask yourself is: With all the speed and time saving features of the suite, will it get the job done faster than FCP.

     

    I strongly suspect that on balance, one your editors learn and become proficient with the new methods (that part is critical), the answer to both would be a resounding YES!

     

    However, if I'm wrong, then you have your answer.  Move to Avid.

     
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    May 23, 2012 3:00 PM   in reply to danzg

    There are workarounds if you interested

    • there is no "reveal in bin/project" command for a clip loaded in Source Monitor
      I hardly believe you used this often. In Premiere Pro you can overlay the clip into opened Sequence with ".", select the overlayed clip and use "Reveal in Project" command or assign a keyboard shortcut, mine is Ctrl+Alt+`
    • you cannot display several timecodes at once, either in the TC window, or as an overlay. I need to see TC from all video and audio tracks at once. (Info window shows it, but takes up too much room; not practical.)
      Info palette is a must. Buy a larger Monitor. Send a Feature Request: https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform
    • there is no way to see Video & Audio Waveform at the same time, in sync, in the Source Monitor (or in a separate window.)
      No, but you can assign keyboard shortcuts for view modes. Also, send a Feature Request.
    • there is no shortcut for "Jump ahead 1 second" -- only 5 frames; useless for me.

         You can create a simplest macro script with AutoHotkey/AutoIt and jump forward/backward by sending keystrokes like "Send NumPad+ NumPad1 NumPad0 NumPad0 NumPadEnter"

         http://www.autohotkey.com/

    • the "match frame" command only goes from Program to Source, not the other way around.

         You can create a Marker - it will be visible in the Timeline

    • there is no shortcut to change the Transition Alignment ("start on edit", "end on edit", "center on edit")

         Drag'n'drop is even faster, but you have to start using a mouse or buy Logitech DiNovo http://www.logitech.com/ru-ru/keyboards/keyboard/devices/192

    • there is no shortcut for "Dip to Black", only "Dip to White" (!!!!) Really?!?!

         You can set "Dip to Black" as a Default Transition and use a different shortcut for Dissolve - "Apply Video Crossfade Transition" then you'll shortcuts for both.

    • there is no shortcut to alter transition duration; you have to go into the Effect panel.

         You can use the mouse or a touchpad on a DiNovo and watch duration in the Info Panel, but it's faster to use the Effect Controls panel to set exact duration. Another way to do that only with keyboard, is to set "Video Transition Default Duration" before adding a Transition(s), however this is acceptable only for new transitions.

    • I cannot figure out how to perform simple trims from the keyboard, without going into the Trim Window ... how to select a cut and simply roll it back/forth 1 frame?

         Read help, watch tutorials, it's easy http://helpx.adobe.com/content/help/en/premiere-pro/using/trimming-cli ps1.html#id_12239

    • there is no way to "page" through the timeline (like PageUp/PageDown in FCP)

         There is indeed:  Keyboard Shortcuts > Panels > Timeline Panel > Show Next/Previous Screen or simply filter for screen

    • Fast-forward/Reverse is limited to about 5x normal speed ... too slow for us. Need at least 10-20x (FCP does 30x I believe)

         Only with Mouse Scrubbing. You can use an AutoHotkey script to perform this operation with the keyboard. I'm using it all the time: http://www.autohotkey.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1159&hilit=Num padMouse&start=75

     

    In past, I tried FCP, it was a nightmare. In Premiere in some parts of my workflow I work standing using solely the keyboard.

     
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    May 23, 2012 3:01 PM   in reply to danzg

    Sorry Dan. 

     

    Your post did not irk me at all ...and my "attachment to the software" is a private and personal thing that I try to keep hidden.   

     

    To me,  it sounded like you had done your homework and already made the decision that it was unuseable for you for your own valid reasons. 

     

    Appeared that you simply do not consider it a Pro application . 

     

    Fair enough ....so I just wondered how your post was going to change that any time soon.

     

    BTW: You are not the first FCP potential switcher coming to the Premiere Forum with a long list of "why cant it be lke FCP or AVID"

     

    Actually and serious question.  Why exactly are FCPers switching anyway?  Why do they not continue with FCP7?

     

    and you asked me about my emotional attachment to software

     
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    May 23, 2012 3:05 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Why exactly are FCPers switching anyway?

     

    Yes, let's not forget that little tidbit.

     
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    May 23, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Dan

     

    In your first post you say "We'll probably have to switch to Avid..."

     

    Then in another you state that you've been using Avid since '96. ?????

     

    The problem I have is that your title to this thread is a statement, not a question. You started by telling everyone that Premiere Pro " still falls short on key features"

     

    Whatever, I hope that the other responces to your "questions" have helped. shooternz and Jim Simon are very knowledgable and can help alot. And it looks like Steven knows quite a bit too.

     
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    May 23, 2012 3:30 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    I can understand Dan, probably he get used to some features in FCP and he afraid that his workflow will slow down. Don't be afraid Dan, Community will help to find solutions, Premiere Pro Team will read feature requests, but you shold not start from telling that you are a switcher

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    May 23, 2012 3:46 PM   in reply to danzg

    3. You can gang Program and Source Monitors with audio waveforms selected. You can see the clip on the right, and the waveform on the left.

    4. Type +/-100+Enter

    5. Choose Clip > Replace with Clip > From Source Monitor, Match Frame

    9. Choose Select Nearest Edit Point as Roll (you have to map that one from the keyboard). Press Option + arrow keys.

    10. After mapping Toggle Audio During Scrubbing, I find that it works just fine when skipping either frames or +5 frames. Not sure what you're doing wrong there.

    11. Page Up/Page Down now "pages" through the Timeline.

     

    Feel free to make a feature request for the rest: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

     

    Hope these help you.

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

     

    ...they have existed in Avid and FCP for at least 10 years. I'm amazed.

     

    To be fair, it took several versions for those apps get all those features (Full disclosure, I worked on FCP at Apple). As you might guess, we will continue to swing the hammer.

     
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    May 23, 2012 4:01 PM   in reply to danzg

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

     

    (b) I assume Adobe employees read these forums and might take my questions into consideration when designing the next version(s) – clearly there is a market hole to be filled with what's happened to FCP.

     

    Indeed, we do read these forums. However, there is no way the right people will see your questions unless you post a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

    The more requests we have for any one feature, the more likely it will be considered to be added to the next release (in other words, get all of your editors and colleagues to vote!).

     

     

    I am not sure why people like you take the time to tell people like me to "quietly move on."

     

    We at Adobe can appreciate posts like this. We actually like constructive criticism.

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

     

    And, yes, we've been using Avid since 1996. Yes, it meets all the critera – it is actually the "source" of the critera – and is by far the most robust editing software we've seen, but

    (a) we would love to have the integration with After Effects;

    (b) in our worflow it often cumbersome to have to convert everything to native Avid codecs; and

    (c) it is cost prohibitive ($2500 for MC6 vs $800 for PP6)

     

    a) As someone who was trained on Avid, worked at Pixar using After Effects, and worked many years in the FCP trenches--integration with After Effects IS sweet!
    b) Native editing is the bomb!

    c) ...and will save you dough!

     

    Don't blame you for checking us out! Thanks!

     
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    May 23, 2012 4:01 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    3. You can gang Program and Source Monitors with audio waveforms selected. You can see the clip on the right, and the waveform on the left.

     

    I don't thin that's what he wants.  I think he wants to see both image and waveform before he adds the clip into a sequence.

     

     

    5. Choose Clip > Replace with Clip > From Source Monitor, Match Frame

     

    Not sure this is what he's looking for, either.  I think he wants the CTI to jump to the frame in the sequence that matches the frame in the Source Monitor (assuming the clip is being used in a sequence).  Right now, you can only load the frame from the sequence in the Source Monitor.

     
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    May 23, 2012 4:20 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    3. You can gang Program and Source Monitors with audio waveforms selected. You can see the clip on the right, and the waveform on the left.

     

    I don't thin that's what he wants.  I think he wants to see both image and waveform before he adds the clip into a sequence.

     

    OK, then that would be a feature request. You can press Shift+2 to toggle between footage and audio waveforms in Premiere Pro, however. For years, this was broken with FCP. Perhaps it works with Playhead sync now? Not sure how you can see both source footage and audio waveforms in Avid at the same time: Toggle Source / Record in Timeline and turn on waveform view?

     

    Jim Simon wrote:

    5. Choose Clip > Replace with Clip > From Source Monitor, Match Frame

     

    Not sure this is what he's looking for, either.  I think he wants the CTI to jump to the frame in the sequence that matches the frame in the Source Monitor (assuming the clip is being used in a sequence).  Right now, you can only load the frame from the sequence in the Source Monitor.

     

    You are right. This is actually a Replace Edit technique, but when I'm match framing from the Source Monitor I usually want to do a Replace Edit right afterward anyway. I would hope that this would achieve what Dan ultimately wants to do. If not, it's a feature request.

     
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    May 24, 2012 1:34 PM   in reply to danzg

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

     

    Kevin Monahan wrote:

     

    3. You can gang Program and Source Monitors with audio waveforms selected. You can see the clip on the right, and the waveform on the left.


    Not what I want (as Jim noted above) ... when trying to mark sections of dialog/interviews/VO, it is MUCH quicker if you can see the waveform below the video.

    How do you do that in Avid?

    In FCP, I believe you'd have to doc the window in another part of the interface and turn playhead sync on. Is that what you are doing?

    Create a feature request for this, and how you would like it to be implemented: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

     

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

    4. Type +/-100+Enter

     

     

    OK, but that's 5 keystrokes instead of 1!

     

    Granted, it's a workaround. Create a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish
    A keyboard macro program could accomplish this in the mean time.

     

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

    5. Choose Clip > Replace with Clip > From Source Monitor, Match Frame

    Again, not what I'm after ... Often I need to check if a certain frame or piece of footage has been used in any number of sequences, and where – that's when we use reverse match frame.

     

    Yes, I agree that it should work the way you intend. Create a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

    I also use Match Frame from the Source to find out if foogate has been used, and where in other NLEs. In Premiere Pro CS6, you can check the clip thumbnail to see if it's used in a sequence, and where. Works great!

     

    clip-used.png

     

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

    10. After mapping Toggle Audio During Scrubbing, I find that it works just fine when skipping either frames or +5 frames. Not sure what you're doing wrong there.

    Let's say I have scrubbing on ... I'm skipping around the footage ... it's noisy, so I toggle scrubbing off ... but the scrubbing stays ON until I press Play or scroll through footage with mouse! I.e., it was toggled, but the toggle does not take effect until footage plays.

    I'm not understanding your trouble. I find that scrubbing works just as I expect it to. The toggle takes effect whether scrubbing, playing, pressing the arrow keys, so I'm just not seeing your problem. Sorry. If any of the other users here can chime in, I'd appreciate it.

     

     

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

    To be fair, it took several versions for those apps get all those features (Full disclosure, I worked on FCP at Apple). As you might guess, we will continue to swing the hammer.

    OK, maybe I'm exaggerating, but I was hoping CS6 would be a chance to bring Premiere up to par...

     

    We know that it's not a perfect release. We know we have work to do. We want to please users just like yourself, but it may take some time to get all those features you requested. Just know that we are dedicated to the pro market and are listening to people just like you, Dan. Unfortunately, we can't implement every feature requested by users due to limitations on resources (amount of engineers, hours in the day, etc.), as I'm sure you understand.

     
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    May 24, 2012 4:44 PM   in reply to danzg

    It was not love at first sight ...but I sense that Dan is slowly warming to our beloved Premiere.

     

     

    Group hug anyone?

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:03 PM   in reply to Steven Pribilinskiy

    Steven Pribilinskiy wrote:

     

    There are workarounds if you interested

    • there is no "reveal in bin/project" command for a clip loaded in Source Monitor
      I hardly believe you used this often.

     

    I can't speak for Dan, but I probably use that feature about 50 times a day in FCP. It's really handy. It's not actually super high on my list of "features I can't live without" though, I'd like to have it but can accept the workarounds, even if they aren't as concise.

     

    My number one feature request would have to be keyboard shortcuts for track patching. I'm surprised there isn't more of an outcry about that one. Don't people find it cumbersome that there's so much clicking and dragging involved in changing tracks? I thought I understood why they had it so complex - to allow for multi-channel patching in the way you can with Avid (although even they have a great keyboard based system for patching), but the first time I tried to cut one multi-channel sequence into another sequence it wouldn't give me access to all the channels and just wanted to make it a nested sequence with one channel of video and one of audio. Does anyone know how to turn that off? Like in FCP, you just hold down the command key as you drag a sequence into another sequence, and you get all the cuts coming across rather than a nested sequence.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:25 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    Don't people find it cumbersome that there's so much clicking and dragging involved in changing tracks?

     

    For myself, not really.  I generally perform most of my computer tasks, including editing, with one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:26 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    Does anyone know how to turn that off?

     

    You can't.  Rather you Copy/Paste.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:27 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    I probably use that feature about 50 times a day in FCP.

     

    I'm curious, for what purpose?  I've never felt the need of it myself.  The work flow is generally from bin to Source Monitor, not the other way around.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:32 PM   in reply to danzg

    Dan123456123456 wrote:

     

    Agreed! Filed that, too. (Avid's method is far superior to FCP's, btw...)

     

    I really liked Avid's patching system, and it's certainly more powerful than FCP's, but there's a certain elegant simplicity to the FCP system. The fact is, 99% of the time the only channels I'm concerned about in source media are V1, A1 and A2. Having a quick system for patching those channels just let's me get on with the story. I'm trying to adjust to the Premiere methodology, but it feels like the patching system is hung up on providing an answer to complex situations that only come up now and then. I've sent a feature request as well, really hope it's high on their list.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:48 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    I probably use that feature about 50 times a day in FCP.

     

    I'm curious, for what purpose?  I've never felt the need of it myself.  The work flow is generally from bin to Source Monitor, not the other way around.

     

    I use it for a number of things... off the top of my head; If I'm working my way through media, and you want to watch the next clip, you can Shift+F, down arrow, enter, and the next clip starts playing in the source monitor. If you want to find out what bin something came fromin a sequence, it's F for match frame then ****+F. Which is the equivalent of "reveal in project", but for reveal in project you have to click on the clip first. Clicking = BAD. Mice are slow. Those might sound like a few key combinations, but I can do that in a fraction of the time it takes to grab a mouse and hunt through the bin for the next clip to click on. I would really love for Adobe to up it's game on the keyboard-driven front.

     
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    May 24, 2012 5:58 PM   in reply to danzg

    Adobe has introduced Hover Play ( a la FCPX) in the Media Browser and the Bins.

     

    You dont even need to go to the source monitor to watch a clip or the next clip.

     
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    May 24, 2012 6:21 PM   in reply to shooternz

    shooternz wrote:

     

    Adobe has introduced Hover Play ( a la FCPX) in the Media Browser and the Bins.

     

    You dont even need to go to the source monitor to watch a clip or the next clip.

     

    Sure, and that definitely has it's uses, although again, it's mouse based. I've been using it lots in the project I'm working on at the moment, but I have something like 7000 clips in that project, I need a range of ways to navigate through all that footage depending on what stage I'm at. Constantly dancing back and forth between bins small enough to see the big picture and bins big enough to effectively hover play clips in could get pretty tedious, and involve a lot of mousing. I'm trying not to get RSI over here.

     
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    May 24, 2012 8:09 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    grab a mouse and hunt through the bin for the next clip to click on.

     

    Did you realize you can load up many clips into the Source Monitor all at once, and then keyboard your way through them?  (You have to set the shortcut manually, it's not there by default.)

     

    And I'm still not sure why you need to find the bin a clip came from 50 times a day.  In 10 years of editing, I don't think I've ever once used that feature, so I just don't grasp the work flow that makes it so necessary.

     
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    May 24, 2012 8:59 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

     

    Did you realize you can load up many clips into the Source Monitor all at once, and then keyboard your way through them?  (You have to set the shortcut manually, it's not there by default.)

     

     

    Yeah, to be honest that keeps messing me up and I end up scrolling through clips when I'm just trying to select the source monitor, but I totally admit that that's just me adapting to the software and hitting the wrong things! And I am commited to adapting. I know that when I switched to Final Cut one of the things that really helped was to not try to make it work like Avid, but to learn it's way of doing things, so I'm hoping I can bring that same mindset to learning The Premiere Pro Way. It might just take a little while.

     

     

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

     

    And I'm still not sure why you need to find the bin a clip came from 50 times a day.  In 10 years of editing, I don't think I've ever once used that feature, so I just don't grasp the work flow that makes it so necessary.

     

     

    Dunno, I've tried to explain it, maybe the fact that you've never used it explains why you don't grasp it. Someone showed it to me a while ago and it's since become an integral part of the way I work, and that's because it allowed me to work faster.

     

    In most of my dealings with editors, there almost always an understanding that there are lots of different ways of working. You pick up tips from other editors, sometimes you stick to what works for you, sometimes it changes the way you work. But there's a basic understanding that there's a lot of different workflows. It sounds like there's two experienced editors in this thread that find this feature really useful...to be honest I'm not used to other editors saying "I don't use that feature so I don't understand why you find it necessary".

     
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    May 24, 2012 10:12 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    I'm not used to other editors saying "I don't use that feature so I don't understand why you find it necessary".

     

    It was more of a learning experience, really.  An attempt to see how the other side thinks.

     

    (I still don't understand, by the way.)

     
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    May 24, 2012 10:21 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Try it for your self Jim 

     
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    May 24, 2012 10:24 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Try what?  Like I said, I've just never had the need to find a clip from the Source Monitor in a bin.  I don't get why someone would want to do that.  I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want, I was just trying to understand why people have that need 50 times a day.

     
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    May 25, 2012 12:56 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

     

    It was more of a learning experience, really.  An attempt to see how the other side thinks.

     

    (I still don't understand, by the way.)

     

    Fair enough. The best way I can explain is to say that I often find myself wondering what happens just before or just after a shot, or being on a particular take and realising it's the next take that I need. Reveal in Bin + Up or Down Arrow + Enter gets me that shot playing in literally a fraction of a second, regardless of where it's stored or how many other bins I have open and cluttering up the workspace at the time. Yes I could load a bunch of clips into the source monitor, but I don't necessarily know I'm on the wrong clip or I'm going to want to see what happens next until I've played a clip.

     

    Like I say, I'll adapt, and reveal in project has it's uses, but it's not nearly as quick and keyboard orientated.

     
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    May 25, 2012 6:01 AM   in reply to SimonHy

    This issue can be resolved with a single keyboard shortcut, but you have to write a macro script. Don't limit yourself by Premiere programmer's imagination.

     

    I will tell you an example, the "Ripple Trim Prev/Next Edit to Playhead" was there, in my toolkit, since CS2, however it's a native command only now in CS6. It's just a bit faster than my macro script but it's still limited, because my script is also "Ripple Trim Prev/Next Edit to Playhead including Empty Space and then Preroll 1 sec and Play" with 1 hotkey.

     

    However there are things which cannot be fixed even with help of macro scripts, for example there are mouse-related issues and as a keyboard-fun you may not be interested in  a thread http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1010204

     
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