Skip navigation
Currently Being Moderated

French Ligature

Jun 22, 2012 7:00 AM

Is there a better way to get the "OE" Œ ligature in French. I can do this using glyphs, but am trying to get this to work using a more global automated method like the opentype feature.

 

Screen shot 2012-06-22 at 8.54.52 AM.png

 

Any other tips on French Canadian ligatures/typesetting is appreciated.

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 7:57 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    I see you're on a Mac.  There should be a keyboard app similar to Charmap on Windows (a native OS software like MS Paint).

     

    In Windows there is a keyboard shortcut for this for fonts that have that glyph built in:  "Alt+0156" where the 0-1-5-6 is typed in sequence while holding the Alt button down.  The numbers must be typed from the numeric keypad on the right-hand side of the keyboard used for accounting applications.  Charmap from the command line typed out will bring up this application and will show you many keystroke equivalents but not every glyph has a keystroke equivalent.  I will look on the mac side to see what this application is called if you don't find it first.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 10:39 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    Just a nominal footnote: "œ" is not a ligature, in the sense that "fi", "fl", and "Th" (in Minion Pro) are. These are typographic ligatures, designed to lighten the 'clash' between the top of the 'f' and 'i' -- and the other combinations. As such, they are used automatically when needed.

     

    "Œ" on the other hand is a proper character on its own. There is a difference between "boeuf" and "bœuf", if only that the former has 5 characters and the latter only four. Ligatures do not change the character count, they only change appearance; digraphs such as 'œ' and 'æ' change the *meaning* of a character, and so it's beyond OpenType to "fix" it.

     

    (Adobe used to add "œ" as a 'ligature' to fonts -- maybe as "Discretionary Ligature, cannot recall -- but ceased to when they got complaints from native users of these. A comparable, recent discussion on Typhophile was on 'automatic' replacement of 'ss' by 'ß' and the other way around. Again, this is not a pure typographic replacement but an orthographic one, beyond the scope and intention of OpenType.)

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 10:42 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    Heh heh -- just tried on my Mac, pressing a few random keys with Option down (Apple's way of entering acutes, graves, and quite a random smattering of "non-US" characters).

     

    Option plus Q yields œ :)

     

    And yes, I have the standard US keyboard settings as my default.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 11:41 AM   in reply to Mike Gondek

    We still have keycaps, ya know, right?  It got a lot less obvious with osx, but it's still there.  You have to have another menu over by your clock, but it's small. ;-)

     

    In the Keyboard control panel, check "Show Keyboard & Character Viewer in menu bar" and you'll get a new menu up there - "show keyboard viewer" will let you see all of the option and shift-option characters.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 2:10 PM   in reply to [Jongware]

    "œ" is not a ligature, in the sense that "fi", "fl", and "Th" (in Minion Pro) are.

    The Oxford dictionary calls a ligature "two or more letters joined (fi, æ etc.)" from the Latin ligere to bind.

    So presumnably œ is a ligature too.

     

    Here in Iceland we use Æ, æ for the sound 'eye' and it remains a ligature of A and E even though it has its own place in the alphabet and is treated as a separate letter in its own right.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 2:25 PM   in reply to steve fairbairn

    > it remains a ligature of A and E even though it has its own place in the alphabet and is treated as a separate letter in its own right.

     

    The term "ligature" is of a description of a design. You can design your æ's any way you like, but ... it ought never be spit into separate "a" and "e" because, as you say, those *characters* are different. Personally, I use the term "ligature" exclusively for optional designed combinations of any two (or more -- "ffi") characters that do not influence "meaning", and "digraph" for a unique character that happens to be historically composed out of more characters.

     

    Ye olde ampersand "&" is a digraph which has evolved *so* far since its first use, you can hardly tell it's a shorthand for "et". I guess that's why noone calls it a ligature anymore, though maybe one did in the ancient past.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 22, 2012 5:37 PM   in reply to [Jongware]

    Personally, I use the term "ligature" exclusively for optional designed combinations of any two (or more -- "ffi") characters that do not influence "meaning", and "digraph" for a unique character that happens to be historically composed out of more characters.

    That's your personal definition (which I understand to a point) but it's not the official one.

     

    And by the way, "Ye olde" is really "Þe olde", the letter thorn having been mistaken for a Y in Gothic script. We still use Þ, þ in Icelandic for the unvoiced th sound like in thistle. See also http://www.baacorsham.co.uk/SFsubweb/PAGE7.HTM bottom of page.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 1:46 AM   in reply to steve fairbairn

    > That's your personal definition (which I understand to a point) but it's not the official one.

     

    It works for Adobe software. Switching "Ligatures" off gets rid of your fi's (and foo's and fum's, if those are ligatures as well) but it leaves your æs and œs as they are.

     
    |
    Mark as:
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 2:00 AM   in reply to [Jongware]

    Switchable ligatures like fi, fl, ffl, ct, st etc. might for that matter be called optional ligatures (cf. optional hyphens). That is to say you can do without them at the expense of pretty typography.

     
    |
    Mark as:

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...

Bookmarked By (0)

Answers + Points = Status

  • 10 points awarded for Correct Answers
  • 5 points awarded for Helpful Answers
  • 10,000+ points
  • 1,001-10,000 points
  • 501-1,000 points
  • 5-500 points