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I need to get my mouse sharpened...

Jun 24, 2012 8:09 PM

Just an observation ....but I think that CS6 has turned my mouse into a blunt object!

 

Like filleting a fish with a blunt knife.

 

I have cut a handful of small projects with CS6 since its release but I am currently in the middle of cutting 8 TVCs. 

 

This experience with CS6 has confirmed my observation that the new timeline trim tricks and functions seems to make me feel as if I am  cutting with a blunt instrument compared to previous versions of PPRO.

 

If the mouse cursor is not precisely positioned...one does not get the trim action or result that one wants so easily.  ie. Fiddling around until the desired trim indicator shows.

 

Working in a scaled out timeline makes things easier but it never felt this difficult before to get onto and edit point at either end of a clip.

 

With clients besides me...I have never felt so bumbling as this makes me look!

 

BTW - I am using combinations of mouse, shortcut keys and modifier keys.

 
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 24, 2012 9:18 PM   in reply to shooternz

    the new timeline trim tricks and functions seems to make me feel as if I am  cutting with a blunt instrument compared to previous versions of PPRO.

     

    Agreed.  Adobe's efforts at making things easier for keyboard purists have had the unwanted side effect of making things more difficult for those of us who prefer the mouse remain under the hand while editing, as you can never truly give up it's use entirely.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 6:45 AM   in reply to shooternz

    shooternz wrote:


    This experience with CS6 has confirmed my observation that the new timeline trim tricks and functions seems to make me feel as if I am  cutting with a blunt instrument compared to previous versions of PPRO.

     

    If the mouse cursor is not precisely positioned...one does not get the trim action or result that one wants so easily.  ie. Fiddling around until the desired trim indicator shows.

     

    Working in a scaled out timeline makes things easier but it never felt this difficult before to get onto and edit point at either end of a clip.

     

    Yep. I feel that pain too. Selection went from point-'n-click to a multiple step processing involving constant rescaling of the timeline. Blech.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 7:49 AM   in reply to shooternz

    I cant actually suggest anyway to resolve it for myself (even as a feature request)

     

    I'll add my voice that scaling the timeline has become a routine for precision editing.

     

    I do have a suggestion, though, for a feature request...  Make it work like parameter changes in Ae:  Use the Command key to slow things down, and the shift key to speed things up.  IOW, holding command while adjusting a parameter give us fine control in small increments.  Whereas the Shift modifier acts as a multiplier, allowing large scale adjustments. 

     

    I'm in favor of Adobe employing consitent behavior across their suite of apps.

     

    I also like the way that FCP lets you trim by frames when using a Ripple Trim tool by pressing the comma or period for 1 frame trims, and the M and / keys for 5 or 10 frame trims (set by preferences).  Is there a feature like that in CS6?  I'm talking about timeline editing here; and NOT going into Trim Mode.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 7:50 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Yes, unintended consequences there.

     

    Hunt

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 9:32 AM   in reply to shooternz

    Ahhh!  So it is not just me!

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 10:50 AM   in reply to Alan Craven

    I really miss the handle at the top of the timeline for moving back and forth in the timeline.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 10:58 AM   in reply to tclark513

    Do you mean this --

     

    Move timeline.png

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 11:13 AM   in reply to Jerry Klaimon

    No...the one that was on top with the ends that curved down.  I know they are similar but the other one seemed more responsive or "faster".

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 11:34 AM   in reply to tclark513

    There are associated minuses with edit point selection, gang. If you are a mouse-centric person, the key is to be in the right zoom level as you edit (as shooternz suggests). You can also use shortcuts to select next or previous edit points, as well as a toggle to move through the various ripple or roll options.

    tclark513 wrote:

     

    No...the one that was on top with the ends that curved down.  I know they are similar but the other one seemed more responsive or "faster".

     

    They do the same thing, but if you would like more granularity or responsiveness with the zoom/scroll bar, make a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 1:36 PM   in reply to shooternz

    YUP. I have to agree. Never before has editing been such a game of "Scale That Timeline!" I find myself clicking multiple times on an edit point just to grab the right end.

     

    The screen resolution is there, the mouse coordinate resolution is there...why not use it?

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 2:15 PM   in reply to benwinter

    Besides Premiere Pro CS5.5 and earlier, I don't think there's an NLE that doesn't allow you to select edits. So, as far as edit selection goes, you simply have to zoom in to an acceptable level. It's a fact of life for all NLE editors, I'm afraid.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 2:18 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    I think what I meant, and the OP meant as well, was that you didn't have to zoom in quite as far before to get the same level of precision in selection.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 2:21 PM   in reply to benwinter

    benwinter wrote:

     

    I think what I meant, and the OP meant as well, was that you didn't have to zoom in quite as far before to get the same level of precision in selection.

     

    Right, and I agree with you. It's not all drawbacks though, you can now trim clips without even touching the mouse, and that's fast.

    The ability to select edits isn't going away, so we need to start getting used to all its quirks.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:15 PM   in reply to shooternz

    I like this. Thanks for the tip. Although I'm sure my workflow is not the fastest, so I'm willing to give the new 'mouseless trim' mechanism a try.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:19 PM   in reply to shooternz

    shooternz wrote:

     

    I now want to find a  single KBD setting to take me to the nearest edit point and set a Trim Mode ( from which I can Toggle to the others.)  ie. I know there are five different Trim Modes shortcuts available. - I want ONE ONLY to locate the edit point nearest and get into Trim Mode just as if I had clicked it with a mouse cursor..

     

    You can press the T key, and it will select the nearest edit point and open up trim mode. Is that what you wanted? If you want to remain in the Timeline to trim, you have to select one of the following:

     

    nearest.png

     

    If you want to have the "T" behavior in the Timeline, the closest would take two shortcuts: one of the above shortcuts, then press Ctrl+T.

    If that doesn't suit you, please make a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:41 PM   in reply to shooternz

    I cant actually suggest anyway to resolve it

     

    One possibility is a new checkbox in preferences:  Allow Keyboard Trimming (or possibly Allow Edit Point Selection)

     

    Those of use who prefer not to use the feature (and hence not to select edit points) can turn it off and get back the edit speed we enjoyed up to CS6.  Everyone else get's to keep it as it is now.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:41 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    you can now trim clips without even touching the mouse, and that's fast.

     

    But not as fast (or as precise) as using the mouse when your hand is already on the mouse anyway.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:59 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    you can now trim clips without even touching the mouse, and that's fast.

     

    But not as fast (or as precise) as using the mouse when your hand is already on the mouse anyway.

     

    It might not be. Wanna race?

    Besides, my hand is not always resting on the mouse, though I know you edit that way.

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 4:20 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    Wanna race?

     

    I still think I could beat you on this front (using older PP of course.)

     

     

     

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

     

    I'm skeptical that's entirely possible.  How did you select multiple clips in a bin, especially when they weren't sequential?  How did you scroll the timeline view horizontally?  How did you scroll it vertically when you have many layers?  How did you make a window larger or smaller?

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 5:30 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    It's a bit of a shame that the move towards keyboard editing is messing up mouse based editors, considering how woefully far behind Avid and FCP the functionality still is for keyboard purists. Hopefully Adobe can iron out the wrinkles and make things work better for both groups.

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    I'm skeptical that's entirely possible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

     
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    Jun 25, 2012 6:45 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Oh, I'm not trying to slag Adobe off or anything, just an observation that they seem caught between two groups. I can't speak for how things have changed with CS6 as it's the first version of Premiere I've really used extensively (although it does make me think... if this is the keyboard friendly version, WTH were the other versions like?!? I don't think I would have liked them). But it's obvious they're transitioning  at the moment, and like I said, I really hope they make things better. There's a great number of things that I think they could do to make improvements, but if I didn't think they were going to work on those  I wouldn't have just recommended that we buy two more copies of the production suite at my company.

     

    I'm quite open to changing the way I work, I just want to work the fastest way possible while limiting tendon damage. For me, in other NLEs, that's meant working with a keyboard.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 10:47 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    Wanna race?

     

    I still think I could beat you on this front (using older PP of course.)

     

    Cheater! You can't have it both ways.

     

     

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

     

    I'm skeptical that's entirely possible.  How did you select multiple clips in a bin, especially when they weren't sequential?  How did you scroll the timeline view horizontally?  How did you scroll it vertically when you have many layers?  How did you make a window larger or smaller?

     

    OK, I'll back off and say edit almost always w/o the mouse. Basic editing should be doable without touching the mouse.

    • When would I need to select multiple non-contiguous clips? Rarely, right? For storyboarding, I guess. Usually, I load a clip, mark it, and slam it into the Timeline.
    • Not fair with "scrolling the timeline horizontally" as FCP was always broken in this regard. Can't believe they never fixed that. I rarely scrolled with the Hand tool, I just hit the K key to stop to see where I was.
    • Never needed to scroll vertically as I had custom layouts with a tiny canvas and max room for tracks in my list of shortcuts--same with window size.
     
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    Jun 26, 2012 10:59 AM   in reply to SimonHy

    SimonHy wrote:

     

    It's a bit of a shame that the move towards keyboard editing is messing up mouse based editors, considering how woefully far behind Avid and FCP the functionality still is for keyboard purists. Hopefully Adobe can iron out the wrinkles and make things work better for both groups.

     

    I agree entirely. All in all CS6 is incredible, but the fact that I have to zoom way in to make a mouse edit is a huge step backwards. I wish there was a way to turn down the proximity sensitivity so the guys that like it to snap on when it's an inch away can leave it, and the rest of us who want it to only snap on within a millimeter can set it that way. Now everyone's happy.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 11:05 AM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    Cheater! You can't have it both ways.

     

    I meant you use CS6, but since the new feature slows down mouse trimming, only I use CS5, where mouse trimming was faster than it is in CS6 (and I bet faster than keyboard trimming).

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 11:07 AM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    I'll back off and say edit almost always w/o the mouse.

     

    And there it is.

     

    You may not have needed to do the things I mention often, but I do (especially horizontal scrolling of the sequence).  And so it is simply more efficient to keep one hand on the mouse at all times.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 11:58 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Jim Simon wrote:

     

    And so it is simply more efficient to keep one hand on the mouse at all times.

     

    Here is where we'll agree to disagree.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 12:57 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    And so it is simply more efficient to keep one hand on the mouse at all times.

     

    Totally agree!!

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to shooternz

    shooternz wrote:

     

    I am wondering if you are saying that you wish to edit and trim in the timeline exclusively with the mouse  (ie no use of keyboard at all).

     

    but if you are happy with both  mouse and some keyboard use...there are a number of ways of acheiving the precision you want and here is a very simple example.

     

    Yes, you described me perfectly. I do use ctrl-k or ctrl-shift-k for keyboard cuts a lot, but only when both hand are already on the keyboard. Otherwise, 90% of my other cuts/edits are done with the mouse.

     

    but if you are happy with both  mouse and some keyboard use...there are a number of ways of acheiving the precision you want and here is a very simple example.

     

    Setup a keyboard short cut to "toggle the trim mode"  (eg.the CS6 default)

     

    I'm very excited about what you're describing and I want to make sure I understand it. I assume when you said "toggle the trim mode" you mean "toggle the trim type." That's the most similar entry I saw in they keyboard shortcuts. It currently is assigned to Shift-T.

     

     

    Then just select (snap to) the middle of the edit point with the mouse cursor...toggle the trim mode and make the trim with the mouse.

    This is the step that I'm not following entirely.  What do you mean by "middle of the edit point"?  Could you please explain this step a little more, I have a feeling this is exactly what I need, but I'm not understanding it entirely.


    Thanks!

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 1:52 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    Kevin Monahan wrote:

     

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

     

    Why? If you want to use FCP, why are you working for Adobe? That's not a rhetorical question.

     

    What I want, as an Adobe customer, is for Adobe to be more Adobe-like. If I wanted it to be more FCP-like, I'd just buy FCP and cut Abobe out of the loop. You seem to be taking "chasing the competition" to the extreme, and loosing yourselves in the bargin. Just sayin'.

     

    I'm an old guy. I remember editing with vi. Probably no one else here does. But VI was extremely tied to archane keyboard shortcuts (notice the first four cursor movement comands -- look familiar?). It you used vi at least four hours a day, every day, it was pretty good and fairly fast. But if you didn't use it at least four hours a day, it became a PITA very quickly because you'd start forgetting. I used to really hate Monday mornings...

     

    VI got stomped into the ground by GUI editing, in large part because of it's insistence that the user had to keep a large volume of arcane keyboard shortcuts in their head in order to use the editor (this sounding familiar to you yet?). Which works if all you do with a computer is use that one piece of software. But doesn't work at all if you have other things to do, or, dog forbid, you use other software with different keyboard shortcuts. Then your life becomes a living hell, or you find another editor that isn't quite so onerous. Which explains why vi is so hard to find these days.

     

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 1:55 PM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    Here is where we'll agree to disagree.

     

    I meant for me.  As I often do things that require the mouse, even on FCP, one hand always on the mouse is the most efficient way for me to edit.

     

    All I'm asking is that Adobe keeps that in mind when designing the UI, and not take backwards steps as was done when adding keyboard trimming.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 2:34 PM   in reply to cfg_2451

    cfg_2451 wrote:

     

    Kevin Monahan wrote:

     

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

     

    Why? If you want to use FCP, why are you working for Adobe? That's not a rhetorical question.

     

    What I want, as an Adobe customer, is for Adobe to be more Adobe-like. If I wanted it to be more FCP-like, I'd just buy FCP and cut Abobe out of the loop. You seem to be taking "chasing the competition" to the extreme, and loosing yourselves in the bargin. Just sayin'.

     

    I'm an old guy. I remember editing with vi. Probably no one else here does. But VI was extremely tied to archane keyboard shortcuts (notice the first four cursor movement comands -- look familiar?). It you used vi at least four hours a day, every day, it was pretty good and fairly fast. But if you didn't use it at least four hours a day, it became a PITA very quickly because you'd start forgetting. I used to really hate Monday mornings...

     

    VI got stomped into the ground by GUI editing, in large part because of it's insistence that the user had to keep a large volume of arcane keyboard shortcuts in their head in order to use the editor (this sounding familiar to you yet?). Which works if all you do with a computer is use that one piece of software. But doesn't work at all if you have other things to do, or, dog forbid, you use other software with different keyboard shortcuts. Then your life becomes a living hell, or you find another editor that isn't quite so onerous. Which explains why vi is so hard to find these days.

     

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

     

    All of the major edit systems have borrowed ideas from each other over the years. Yet only on these forums have I read people react to comments about features people like in other NLEs with "well why don't you go use that NLE?" It's a bit defensive isn't it? There's good and bad about every system, if we're going to learn from history let's learn from what's worked in other NLEs, not pass it off as not our way of working.

     

    Personally, as someone who sits in front of an NLE upwards of 70 hours a week, I don't have any trouble remembering keyboard shortcuts, so they suit me well. And that's the reality of a lot of pro editors. But I know a lot of the more casual editors who use Premiere at my office are mouse orientated, and like to have all the buttons turned on. I don't see why it's not possible to have a flexible system, that suits both types of users. That should be Adobe's goal.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 3:42 PM   in reply to cfg_2451

    cfg_2451 wrote:

     

    Kevin Monahan wrote:

     

    I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

    Videos this evening

     

    Why? If you want to use FCP, why are you working for Adobe? That's not a rhetorical question.

     

    Huh? I didn't say that. I'm just stating the fact that legacy FCP was set up better for keyboard only editing over Premiere Pro (however, It took them all the way until version 7 to do so), and we're coming closer ourselves with every version. You don't need to read any more into it than that.

     

     

    cfg_2451 wrote:

     

    What I want, as an Adobe customer, is for Adobe to be more Adobe-like. If I wanted it to be more FCP-like, I'd just buy FCP and cut Abobe out of the loop. You seem to be taking "chasing the competition" to the extreme, and loosing yourselves in the bargin. Just sayin'.

     

     

    I don't think the way we've evolved is extreme at all, in fact, I think we've progressed nicely.

     

    I'm sure you've noticed that Premiere Pro has been undergoing some big changes, over the past few versions in particular. These changes are geared towards professional editors, and the tools they like to use in other NLEs. We're not losing ourselves, quite the opposite. Most pro editors seem to love the direction we're going in.

     

    We're in the software business, so we need new users to survive as a company. Adapting our tools to be more useful to newcomers is important to us, as we would like to keep them as customers. Hope that makes more sense to you.

     
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    Jun 26, 2012 3:44 PM   in reply to SimonHy

    SimonHy wrote:

     

    But I know a lot of the more casual editors who use Premiere at my office are mouse orientated, and like to have all the buttons turned on. I don't see why it's not possible to have a flexible system, that suits both types of users. That should be Adobe's goal.

     

    It is. That's why we made things like the button editor--you can have as many buttons as you want in the interface.
    Continued feature requests will help guide us as to what you guys want in the app. Keep 'em up.

     
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