Adobe Community: Weird Crop tool behaviour with 16-bit files

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Weird Crop tool behaviour with 16-bit files

Jun 1, 2012 2:38 AM

Tags: #image_rotation #photoshop_cs6 #background_noise #crop_tool #16-bit

Shadow areas of my 16-bit files show strange patterns if I use the Crop tool to rotate. I can also replicate the problem by doing the following:

Make a new empty 16-bit file in PS6 in RGB mode (File>New). Fill it with 100% black. Use the Crop tool and rotate to taste. Press Enter to accept the crop and zoom in to enjoy the black and grey noise patterning reminiscent of a man's suit. The Straighten tool will achieve the same result. Your suit pattern will vary according to the degree of rotation.

The problem goes away if you subsequently convert the file to 8-bit, or convert to any other mode (Greyscale, Lab, CMYK).

This patterning is easily visible at 100% view or less, and appears whether the View>Show>Pixel Grid option is on or off. It is decidedly NOT the pixel grid I am seeing.

This effect can be created with files from both my Canon and Hasselblad cameras.

I'm using a Mac Pro with OS10.6.8.

7950 Views 114 Replies Latest reply: Hudechrome, Sep 3, 2012 6:19 PM

Replies 1 2 3 Previous Next

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1. Chris Cox,

Jun 1, 2012 9:39 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Which version of Photoshop are you using?

And which options for the crop tool?

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2. erickellerman,

Jun 1, 2012 10:04 AM in reply to Chris Cox

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Hello Chris

I'm using PS6. I invoke the Crop tool, Unconstrained, Delete Cropped Pixels unselected. Degree of rotation doesn't matter, though the pattern noise will vary with the degree of rotation.

I have now discovered that this weirdness ONLY happens with crop rotation of 16-bit files. If I open a 32-bit file and rotate, there is no patterning. If I convert this rotated crop to 16-bit, there is no change. But if I convert the file to 16-bit and THEN rotate, I get the noise again. 8-bit files do not show this behaviour. Saving rotated 16-bit files to TIFF and PSD preserves the patterning. Converting these files to jpeg (8-bit, obviously) removes the noise.

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3. erickellerman,

Jun 4, 2012 2:35 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Problem 'explained'!!! The video card is implicated.

Go to Preferences>Performance. If under Detected Graphics Processor, you have checked Use Graphics Processor, then the 16-bit file crop/rotation weirdness will occur as described above. If you leave it unchecked, then restart PS6, the gentlemen's suit patterns will no longer appear upon cropping/rotating.

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4. Chris Cox,

Jun 4, 2012 10:18 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Which GPU are you using?

We'll have to investigate a bit more to isolate the cause.

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5. erickellerman,

Jun 5, 2012 1:57 AM in reply to Chris Cox

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Chipset Model:          ATI Radeon HD 4870
Type:          GPU
Bus:          PCIe
Slot:          Slot-1
PCIe Lane Width:          x16
VRAM (Total):          512 MB
Vendor:          ATI (0x1002)
Device ID:          0x9440
Revision ID:          0x0000
ROM Revision:          113-B7710F-176
EFI Driver Version:          01.00.318

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6. erickellerman,

Jun 5, 2012 7:29 AM in reply to erickellerman

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I have now heard from owners of the ATI Radeon HD 5800 and the Nvidia 570M that they too suffer from this patterning b ehaviour.

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7. erickellerman,

Jun 25, 2012 6:40 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Any news, Chris?

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8. Chris Cox,

Jun 25, 2012 5:53 PM in reply to erickellerman

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We have not been able to reproduce this problem.

But it could be something about your video card or driver version.

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9. Noel Carboni,

Jun 25, 2012 6:08 PM in reply to erickellerman

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It would be good to get more detail about what version of the driver you have.

In Photoshop do Help - System Info, copy, then post the info here.

-Noel

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10. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 1:06 AM in reply to Noel Carboni

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Adobe Photoshop Version: 13.0 (13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00) x64
Operating System: Mac OS 10.6.8
System architecture: Intel CPU Family:6, Model:26, Stepping:5 with MMX, SSE Integer, SSE FP, SSE2, SSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, HyperThreading
Physical processor count: 8
Logical processor count: 16
Processor speed: 2260 MHz
Built-in memory: 16384 MB
Free memory: 10979 MB
Memory available to Photoshop: 15749 MB
Memory used by Photoshop: 71 %
Image tile size: 1024K
Image cache levels: 6
OpenGL Drawing: Enabled.
OpenGL Drawing Mode: Normal
OpenGL Allow Normal Mode: True.
OpenGL Allow Advanced Mode: True.
OpenGL Allow Old GPUs: Not Detected.
OpenGL Version: 2.1 ATI-1.6.36
OpenCL Version:
Video Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Video Card Renderer: ATI Radeon HD 4870 OpenGL Engine
Display: 2
Display Depth:= 32
Display Bounds:= top: 0, left: -1920, bottom: 1200, right: 0
Video Renderer ID: 16914951
Video Card Memory: 495 MB
Video Rect Texture Size: 8192
OpenGL Version: 2.1 ATI-1.6.36
OpenCL Version: 1.0 (Dec 23 2010 17:30:26)
Video Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Video Card Renderer: ATI Radeon HD 4870 OpenGL Engine
Display: 1
Main Display
Display Depth:= 32
Display Bounds:= top: 0, left: 0, bottom: 1024, right: 1280
Video Renderer ID: 16914951
Video Card Memory: 495 MB
Video Rect Texture Size: 8192
Serial number: 91199850316091008089
Application folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:
Photoshop scratch has async I/O enabled
Scratch volume(s):
RAID 1, 3.64T, 1.11T free
HD1, 595.9G, 301.3G free
Required Plug-ins folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:Adobe Photoshop CS6.app:Contents:Required:
Primary Plug-ins folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:Plug-ins:
Additional Plug-ins folder: not set

Installed components:

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   dvaunittesting.framework   dvaunittesting   6.0.0.0
   dynamiclink.framework   dynamiclink   6.0.0.0
   FileInfo.framework   FileInfo   66.145433   66.145433
   filter_graph.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293
   hydra_filters.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293
   ICUConverter.framework   ICUConverter   3.61   "gtlib_3.0" "." "16615"
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   UpdaterNotifications.framework   UpdaterNotifications   6.0.0.24   "6.0.0.24"
   wrservices.framework

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   PhotoKit Creative Sharpener 2 2.0.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PhotoKit Sharpener 2.plugin”
   PhotoKit Output Sharpener 2 2.0.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PhotoKit Sharpener 2.plugin”
   PhotoKit Preview Helper 2.1.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PG Toolbox Previewer.plugin”
   PixelGenius Toolbox 2.2.1 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PixelGenius Toolbox.plugin”
   Portraiture 2.3 © 2004-2010 Imagenomic, LLC - from the file “Portraiture.plugin”
   Silver Efex Pro 2 2.004, Copyright © 2000-2012 Nik Software Inc. - from the file “Silver Efex Pro 2.plugin”
   Topaz ReMask 3 CS3 (10.0) ©1993-2007 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Topaz_remask3.plugin”
Plug-ins that failed to load: NONE
Flash:
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   Kuler
Installed TWAIN devices: NONE

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11. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 1:24 AM in reply to erickellerman

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I'm using a Radeon 4870 here at home, with MacOS 10.6.8 -- and cannot reproduce those artifacts.

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12. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 4:14 AM in reply to Chris Cox

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Hi Chris

The problem has been replicated by other users with different cards (a ATI Radeon HD 5800, for example).

The key conditions are: 16-bit file, RGB, with 'Use Graphics Processor' selected in Preferences. Saving as TIFF or .psd preserves the patterning. Saving as jpeg removes it.

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13. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 5:51 AM in reply to erickellerman

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For an example of the patterning, download the file (1mb) at http://www.erickellermanphotography.com/pattern.psd

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14. siskin11,

Jun 26, 2012 7:19 AM in reply to erickellerman

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I assume I'm the affected user Eric is referring to with the Radeon HD 5800. I am running Windows 7 64x on an 17-2600 machine with 12GB RAM. The video-card driver is version 8.961.

This problem has rendered the crop and tilt function on CS6 more or less useless to me at present. It seems to be some kind of interference effect, because, for me, the patterning is remarkably uniform - long, intersecting lines very much like a ghost tartan watermark on the image. The attached image shows the patterning at 500%. This occurred on a 16-bit image after a minor crop and tilt. It is only really visible when zoomed in, but is definitely burned into the image. I use GPU acceleration in Normal mode.

Peter Rees

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15. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 7:32 AM in reply to siskin11

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Yes, this is the basic patterning I have too. The degree of rotation determines the final effect.

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16. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 7:47 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Here's a weird thing: I just opened the file http://www.erickellermanphotography.com/pattern.psd on my PC in Photoshop CS6 and it is perfectly black.

I even added two extreme curves adjustment layers above the background. There is no pattern there.

-Noel

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17. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 7:50 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Do you see a difference when you choose different settings in the Crop tool for [ ] Delete Cropped Pixels?

-Noel

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18. siskin11,

Jun 26, 2012 8:15 AM in reply to Noel Carboni

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I don't know about Eric, but I don't have a Mac. Eric's pattern is certainly there on my screen, though. Oddly, when I select the pattern with the eyedropper, the info palette shows no difference in colour between the pattern and the background - both register as R0G0B0.

The issue occurs whatever you select under Delete Cropped Pixels. Here's another weird thing though - I just noticed on a layered image (multiple image layers) that the pattern wasn't visible until I deselected the top layer - in other words, it only affected the background layer, although the two layers are nearly identical (one is sharpened).

Peter

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19. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 8:20 AM in reply to Noel Carboni

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If 'Delete Cropped PIxels' remains unchecked, the effect occurs. If it's checked, then rotation has no effect. And I just downloaded my own PSD file, and lo and behold! The noise is till there! No adjustment layer has any effect, as far as I can see. And I also fail to pick up any differences with the eye dropper.

I'm a Mac user.

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20. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 8:34 AM in reply to erickellerman

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There is in implicational order at work: If 'Use Graphics Processor' is selected in Preferences>Performance, then not checking [ ] Delete Cropped Pixels produces the effect. If 'Use Graphics Processor' is not selected (after restarfting PS), then it doesn't matter whether 'Delete Cropped Pixels' is selected or not.

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21. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 8:39 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Bingo! If I download my .psd file, and then open it in PS6 with 'Use Graphics Processor' unselected, guess what? Yes, NO patterning! So UGP is the cucial element.

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22. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 8:52 AM in reply to erickellerman

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Seems to me it's a video driver issue then, and it may only be affecting your display when pixels extend beyond the boundary of the visible canvas.

I have an ATI Radeon HD 5670 with Catalyst 12.2 drivers (internally numbered 8.950.0.0) and don't see the problem.

Eric has an ATI Radeon HD 4670 with the drivers shipping with Apple's OSX 10.6.8 and DOES see the problem.
Peter has an ATI Radeon HD 5800 with Catalyst 12.4 drivers (internally numbered 8.961) and DOES see the problem.

My conclusion is that it's a problem recently introduced by ATI. This is not surprising, their recent driver versions have not worked well with Photoshop. The last good version was Catalyst 12.2.

Eric, you pretty much need to wait on Apple to provide new drivers with an OS update.

Peter, you could either uninstall Catalyst 12.4 and drop back to 12.2, or you could move forward to ATI's 12.6 beta version.

-Noel

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23. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 12:32 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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The artifacts are in the transparency channel, not the color channels.
Layer -> Layer Mask -> From transparency to get them into a visible mask

They do look like interpolation artifacts (like something used low precision math for the transparency channel).

But I still can't reproduce that on my system with Photoshop CS6 (10.6.8, Radeo 4870).
Chipset Model:          ATI Radeon HD 4870
Type:          GPU
Bus:          PCIe
Slot:          Slot-1
PCIe Lane Width:          x16
VRAM (Total):          512 MB
Vendor:          ATI (0x1002)
Device ID:          0x9440
Revision ID:          0x0000
ROM Revision:          113-B7710C-176
EFI Driver Version:          01.00.318

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24. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 1:26 PM in reply to Chris Cox

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Chris, did you have a look at my psd file with GPU checked in PS Prefs?

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25. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 2:30 PM in reply to erickellerman

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You PSD is what I was referring to -- it's an example of artifacts in the transparency channel.
The artifacts are already present in that file, so I can't use it to reproduce anything.
I need to know how to get the artifacts to start with.

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26. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 2:46 PM in reply to Chris Cox

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Chris, when I look at the pattern.psd file Eric posted, there are no artifacts. Not even in the transparency channel.

Honest!

It must be something that's happening to the file when being opened on your particular system.

I did a Layer - Layer Mask - From Transparency, copied the mask, and pasted it as a new layer. It's pure white. The histogram says so and two layers of extreme curves adjustments say so.

The artifacts are NOT present in that file!

Edit: Scratch that. I went through it again and saw something different. Eric, did you update the file at the link posted above?

-Noel

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27. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 2:52 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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It's a 16 bit file, and the errors are small.

Open patterns.psd, Layer -> Layer Mask -> From Transparency, option/alt click on the layer mask to show it, Levels and change the black point to 245, commit the levels adjustment, now repeat the same levels adjustment and you should see the artifacts.
The errors appear to be in the least significant 2 bits of the result.

But resampling solid white should always result in solid white -- so something when wrong before we saw that document.

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28. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 2:53 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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No, Noel. No updates! My strong feeling is that the Graphics Processor is involved, as if I have it switched off, even my own psd file looks clean.

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29. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 2:58 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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I probably made a mistake the first time somehow in processing the image. Here's what I see. The curves layers are as extreme as they can be. Looks like maybe a 1 or 2 level error in the 16 bit data.

-Noel

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30. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 3:00 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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And that's exactly what I'm seeing.

The file is already dirty because of those artifacts in the transparency channel.
Something happened to the file before we saw it to cause the artifacts.

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31. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 3:16 PM in reply to Chris Cox

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Chris I've been able to reproduce the issue in a new document. Here's how:

File - New, 400 x 300 px x 96 ppi, 16 bits/channel, Transparent
Set foreground color to pure black
Bucket fill
Choose Crop Tool
Uncheck [ ] Delete Cropped Pixels
Click the Straighten Button
Drag a line across the image right and upward until 5.0 degrees is indicated.
Complete the crop.

This reproduces the problem whether a Grayscale or RGB image is created.

I'm thinking another inaccuracy is making this ultra slight transparency error visible on some GPU-accelerated modes with some drivers.

-Noel

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32. erickellerman,

Jun 26, 2012 3:05 PM in reply to Chris Cox

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I see. But still, if my file is 'dirty' before it go to you two, how come I can clean it myself if I view it with the GP turned off in Prefs? Or convert to 8 or 32-bit. Or save it to jpeg?

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33. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 3:06 PM in reply to erickellerman

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Eric, normally you would not expect to see a 1 or 2 level (out of 32768) transparency difference on-screen. I suspect your particular drivers are showing that where others are not because of an error unrelated to the transparency channel glitches.

There are just bugs all over this windshield!

-Noel

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34. Chris Cox,

Jun 26, 2012 3:18 PM in reply to Noel Carboni

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It looks clean because the error is very small (4 / 32768).
But something is making it more visible on your system, and so far I haven't gotten it to be visible without using two extreme levels or curves adjustments.

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35. Noel Carboni,

Jun 26, 2012 3:26 PM in reply to Chris Cox

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FYI, the transparency channel gains the same minor transparency glitches with just Image - Image Rotation - Arbitrary.

Note that these glitches don't really look like what Eric and Peter are seeing. That *could* be another issue entirely.

-Noel

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36. Paulo Skylar,

Jun 27, 2012 6:06 AM in reply to Noel Carboni

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I will add my observation on the unexpected behavior of the transparency channel. While I do not see the behavior noted in the original posting, I do see the transparency error reported by Chris and Noel. It is only present in 16-bit mode and only with my graphics processor turned on ( Nvidia 9600 GT, CS6).

In my case I see someting not yet mentioned. I can readily see the error on the display, which should be displaying pure black (Fill canvas with black, crop tool, rotate). It appears to be an error of a few percent on the display so if the calculation error is in fact only two LSBs in the mask data, then it appears as if the higher & lower order bytes are switched in writing the transparency channel ....... or some other error.

Paulo

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37. Chris Cox,

Jun 27, 2012 10:47 AM in reply to Paulo Skylar

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Paulo - can you get a screenshot of what you're seeing? I'm starting to suspect this is a display pipeline error, but it may only happen in certain circumstances (which I haven't yet reproduced).

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38. Paulo Skylar,

Jun 27, 2012 11:06 AM in reply to Chris Cox

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Here are screen shots at 100% magnification. The canvas was 100 x 100 pixels and using the crop tool I "straightened" the image by 40 degrees (if I remember correctly) - different angles yield different patterns, of course.

Here is another view with a levels adjustment
I had a medium, blue transparency grid, which can be resolved.

Paulo

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39. Noel Carboni,

Jun 27, 2012 11:16 AM in reply to Paulo Skylar

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I'm only barely seeing the pattern you are seeing in the first of the two images you posted, Paulo - it looks almost perfectly black from here. If I work at it I can just barely see the pattern, especially if I zoom in. Looks like just a 1 or 2 level shift above pure black in that image.

It occured to me the appearance / absence of this might just be differing responses to very dim level changes with different display systems, so I purposefully reproduced the issue and did a screen grab, but nope - I'm still getting a perfectly black display. I think Chris must be right - something not right in the display pipeline on only some systems.

-Noel

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