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__Dallas__
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Convert colors Acrobat X problem

Jun 25, 2012 2:03 PM

Tags: #pdf #convert #acrobat_x #acrobat_pro_x #acrobat_10_pro

In previous versions of Acrobat the Convert Colors dialog could make cmyk to cmyk color conversions from the source profile set in the preferences to the chose destination profile.

 

This is broken in Acrobat X, but worked great in Acrobat 9.  When converting to an Output intent the embedded output intent profile changes, but no actual conversion of the color numbers occurs, so the Output Intent profile is now mismatched.

 

Why does this no longer work?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 27, 2012 6:33 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Certainly this is a bug in Acrobat X. I also tried to report it to Adobe Support for Czech, but it seems that they did not understand me. : (

     

     

    Below I send what I learned and how you called Adobe bug.

     

     

    "Adobe Acrobat X not change the CMYK values ​​Will change only the output intent profile. It's nice to see in theses videos.

     

     

    Acrobat 9 Pro - functional colormanagement - http://screenr.com/3T08

    Acrobat Pro X - not functional colormanagement - http://screenr.com/eT08

     

     

    Well my case Adobe Support and ended with this: bug # 2921089 and the description says "wrong color preview from InDesign / Illustrator created in Acrobat PDF opened X".

     

     

    But it's not a bug in the preview, but That does not change Acrobat at all values ​​of CMYK source profile to the profile of the target. "

     

    Ales Ulrych

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 27, 2012 11:36 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    I use this every day and because I work in textile printing and color printers we have not Cyan, but the color of dark blue, colormanagement I use for all graphics.

     

     

    Yup, it's pretty serious to me that fault and unpleasant. But I found a solution by which to circumvent this, than it corrects. At least I hope not call it a new feature of version X.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 6:19 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    Without the actual file in question, we can't do anyting to test/validate this issue.

     

    Also, that bug number is not related to this in any way.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 9:30 AM   in reply to lrosenth

    Hi Irosenth,

     

    There is no problem. Here you can download my files that I used on video and I also sent to Adobe support. File number = case number for Adobe support.

     

    http://www.uschovna.cz/zasilka/J4LK2ZTGLHT4SXSE-AI4

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 10:19 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    In my opinion, Acrobat X is doing the right thing and Acrobat 9 had the bug.

     

    You can verify this by open the PDF up in Acrobat 9, open Output Preview and then switch the simulation profile to your custom one.   The circle will go dark, since (apparently) that’s what your profile wants.

     

    Color Conversion makes that change permanent by changing the color values in the PDF as well as (in this case) adding an OutputIntent profile to the PDF.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 10:34 AM   in reply to lrosenth

    I beg to differ.

    The color source data with ISO Coated profile is light blue (100/20/0/0).

    My goal is to convert this light blue color to the new profile to remain as faithful as possible to color. (ie change to a different CMYK values​​, but with the visual appearance was the closest source data)

    Acrobat 9 will do this. Changes to the CMYK values ​​(81/2/10/4). The CMYK values ​​with my new profile 2M MULTIFLAG Sansient have 9.11.2010.icm ICC (which is now as the output intent) look almost identical, as the source CMYK values ​​(100/20/0/0) with the ISO Coated profile. This is the correct procedure.

     

     

    With Acrobat X CMYK values ​​unchanged. Remain original (100/20/0/0). With these values ​​the object profile using 2M Multiflag very dark.

     

     

    Imagine if I get a picture in the ISO Coated v2, and I need to print it out on our printer profile Multiflag 2M. The result would be unusable. Therefore, all images in Acrobat 9 is transformed to a new profile (CMYK values ​​will change) and immediately see whether the photo to use.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 10:49 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    You are misunderstanding how color management work.

     

    The provided file (Test.pdf) uses DEVICE CMYK values (Re: Convert colors Acrobat X problem).   They are NOT defined in any specific profile – hence the “DeviceCMYK” aspect.   They will, however, be displayed by Acrobat as if they were values associated with whatever working space profile you have chosen.  In your case, that appears to be ISO Coated, in mine it’s SWOP.   So already our blues are different.

     

    As you note, when you use the “Convert to OutputIntent” choice, you are NOT actually changing the CMYK values of the object – BUT you are instead making it explicit what profile to associate those values with.  This is equivalent to “Assign Profile” in Photoshop.   So the values in the PDF remain unchanged (Re: Convert colors Acrobat X problem), BUT NOW instead of either ISO Coated or SWOP – it’s in your MULTIFLAG profile.

     

    IF, HOWEVER, you use the actual Convert Colors part, but setting the profile in the Conversion Attributes, and then converting, the CMYK values in the PDF will change (to Re: Convert colors Acrobat X problem) to what they would be for that same color according to MULTIFLAG…HOWEVER, Acrobat is still displaying them according to ISO Coated/SWOP as they are still DeviceCMYK colors.

     

    If you want the correct values associated explicitly with MULTIFLAG, then also click the “Embed” checkbox which will them embed the MULTIFLAG profile along with the image and its newly converted value.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 29, 2012 1:39 PM   in reply to lrosenth

    In that case, you have to admit that what he did Acrobat 9 is better. When I had to convert color values ​​changed to CMYK target profile and assign the profile to which I was transformed. I immediately saw that the transfer was carried out correctly. I know that the source profile used what I had set in the workspace. When there was a client Swop, I set to SWOP Acrobat 9 to convert and put into Multiflag. I immediately saw how it's transferred and could check the result. Then I could save the file as PDF-x1a abyl correct.

     

     

    If that's the way you write, you can explain to me why there is a possibility: ""Preserve CMYK primary colors" - "preserve black"", when you say, only the final plan, the equivalent of Photoshop "Assign Profile"?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 1, 2012 11:29 PM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    If the "Convert to OutputIntent" does not change the CMYK values, the item "preserve black", "Change the black to gray CMYK" and "Preserve CMYK primary colors" are meaningless.

     

     

    Therefore, I think you are wrong and Acrobat X is a mistake. Acrobat 9 works properly.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 2, 2012 5:48 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    Actually, the right thing would be for “Convert to OutputIntent” to be dimmed UNLESS the PDF already had an OutputIntent included, as the purpose of the feature is to convert all of the OTHER colors in the PDF to that of the OutputIntent.  This is useful when dealing with PDF/X or PDF/A compliant files.

     

    And in that case, the Preserve options would be perfectly valid.

     

    In your case, the file only has DeviceCMYK colors and NO OutputIntent – so it’s being used improperly.  I’ll file a bug to dim the item.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 2, 2012 5:15 PM   in reply to __Dallas__

    But the OutputIntent profile is ALREADY EMBEDDED in the PDF….if not, then it’s just a regular profile.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 2, 2012 5:17 PM   in reply to __Dallas__

    To answer the questions

     

     

    >I have been using this feature successfully in Acrobat 9 literally every day for years, but it is clearly broken in Acrobat X as no cmyk objects get >converted to the output color spaces cmyk numbers as they did in Acrobat 9.

     

    >Are you suggesting that Acrobat 9 was broken for it's entire life cycle?

     

    Yes.  Acrobat 9 is broken and Acrobat X fixed it.

     

     

     

    >Why are you trying for us to not have this fixed Irosenth?

     

    Because we already fixed it in Acrobat X, so there isn’t anything else to do.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 2, 2012 7:46 PM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Yes, Leonard Rosenthol is a Principal Scientist in Adobe's Acrobat development organization! And he is intimately involved in development of Acrobat code.

     

              - Dov

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 2, 2012 11:48 PM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Also, the power to intercede as you return to this poor functionality. For many years I use it and now we are forced to return back from version X to version 9, where I'm working.

     

     

    Thanks Dallas, helping me with explaining this to us useful functions. My English is bad so I did not already know, how do I explain to Mr. Iroseth me why the error according to Adobe, according to property suits me great. I use it for the same purpose as you. Thanks again.

     

     

    Ales Ulrych

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 6:19 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Let’s forget about the help file – that’s written by a completely different group who don’t always talk to engineering & product management ☺.

     

    The issue here is what is the correct behavior.

     

    In Acrobat 9, you could only do a single thing – convert colors to a given profile.  And you could that in two different ways – either using the standard Conversion Commands OR via the Convert to Output Intent.  The difference between the two being that the Conversion Commands could be used on a subset of the objects (say only those in CMYK) while Convert to OI would convert all objects AND also embed the OI (which isn’t useful for non-PDF/X or PDF/A files).   BUT in the case of PDF/X (and PDF/A) compliant files, the Convert to OI feature didn’t actually work the way that customers wanted it to, because it wasn’t actually working as to enable “repurposing” the file to a different press.

     

    In Acrobat X, we recognized these various issues and corrected Convert Colors to OutputIntent to work as customers expected, which is that it now enables you to take a PDF/X (or PDF/A) compliant file with an embedded OutputIntent and repurpose that file (according to the relevant standards) for use on a different device.  Color conversion itself continues to be handled by the Conversion commands as it always has, with the various Convert Options (preserve black, etc.) working as they should.   ADDITIONALLY, as you have noted, we are now able to provide the ADDITIONAL feature of applying the OutputIntent to a file that doesn’t already have one.  However, that’s not really all that useful since Acrobat will ignore an OutputIntent in a file that doesn’t comply with PDF/X or PDF/A.

     

    Does this help you understand our position?   Do you now agree that Acrobat is behaving correctly and there is nothing to be fixed?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 6:21 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    If you have a PDF that when converted using the standard Conversion Commands (and associated Convert Options) does not convert as you expect with Acrobat X, I would very much like to see it so that we can fix any bugs in the actual conversion.   Please post or email me copies of any such PDFs along with explanations of which object(s) I should be looking at.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 12:03 PM   in reply to lrosenth

    Thanks for the excellent explanation Mr. lrosenth of the difference   between Acrobat 9 and Acrobat X. It is now also clear to me. Although for me the old way was easier (I immediately saw what the transfer has changed - now I have to select the correct Output Intent). Pity the Standard Commands Conversion is not possible to transfer the right to choose as Output Intent profile. Then I just saved the file and I should PDF/X1a Output Intent with Multiflag done.

    (unless of course, in other respects meets the standard PDF/X1a)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 1:00 PM   in reply to __Dallas__

    No problem – it was good to make sure that things actually did work as they should.

     

    FYI – on the issue of Spot & NChannel, you can also use the Ink Manager as part of a color conversion to do specific Spot operations.   (see the Ink Manager button at the bottom of the Color convert dialog)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    If your goal is PDF/X-1a conversion anyway – then use Preflight and a custom profile!  You can set up the color conversion to your profile (with all the same options) as part of the conversion, so that it all happens in a single click!!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 3, 2012 11:09 PM   in reply to lrosenth

    Thanks Irosenth. It is now clear to me. But the conversion options when choosing color Convert to Output Intend (preverse black ...) are confusing.

     

     

    Do please look at this video: http://screenr.com/BmZ8. To achieve the same result as in Acrobat 9, I have to use two steps. I can not do everything at once.

    But mainly, that I understand what you meant. Just as I say, the damage output that can not Intend to assign it as the first step in Version 9 Or write me how.

     

     

    Thanks a lot.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 4, 2012 12:27 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    Another video, which is an example of my workflow. The dual conversion I have to get used to, therefore, if not yet another way. http://screenr.com/imZ8

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 4, 2012 6:01 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    As I mentioned, use Preflight instead of ColorConvert, so that you can combine the operations more logically.

     
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    Jul 4, 2012 8:14 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Yes, I would be very grateful for the screen shots of the preflight I setup. Thanks

     

     

    I'm still not sure what you mean. : (

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2012 9:26 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Dallas, please send me the Screenshots, or upload video. The site is 5 minutes http://www.screenr.com/ free. As you could see, I use it often.

     

     

    Thanks a lot.

     

     

    Ales

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 7, 2012 10:47 AM   in reply to __Dallas__

    Thanks for the tip, I'll try to find it. And yet I like it when my screenshots or video you send when you're at work. Otherwise a nice vacation.

     

     

    regards

     

     

    Ales Ulrych

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 7, 2013 12:28 PM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    Hallo Dallas, hallo Irosenth,

    I just found out that the color conversion in Acrobat XI works exactly the same as in Acrobat 9. That the alleged error, which was, according to Mr. Irosentha fixed in version X, returned ...

    That I could once again return to the old color conversion that I fit in Version 9?

    Can you please sir Irosenth say whether this behavior so it remains to new colleagues could train this way, or it will change again in version XII?

     

    Thank you very much for your answer.

     

    regards

     

    Ales Ulrych

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 7, 2013 3:17 PM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    Acrobat XI is correct on this issue.

     

    If you believe otherwise, please provide sample PDFs and an explanation of why it is wrong.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 7, 2013 11:25 PM   in reply to lrosenth

    Hello

    according to me in version XI again working properly, but very confusing to me your previous explanation for this behavior was removed in version X (as you fixed in version 9)

    see your comment No. 19

     

    Acrobat 9 Pro - functional colormanagement - http://screenr.com/3T08

    Acrobat Pro X - not functional colormanagement - http://screenr.com/eT08

    Acrobat Pro XI - functional colormanagement - http://screenr.com/QVu7

     

    In Acrobat Pro XI I came across a very strange behavior. Please take a look at it sir Irosenth. http://forums.adobe.com/message/5131525#5131525 

     

    regards

     

    Ales Ulrych

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 8, 2013 5:53 AM   in reply to Aleš Ulrych

    When I wrote that, there was a misunderstanding of what you and others were actually asking for.  During the Acrobat XI development, we re-evaluated the entire color conversion mechanism vs. how things should be working and made sure that it worked as expected.  Acrobat XI doesn’t work like 9 or X – there are differences between all of them.  We believe that XI is now correct in all cases.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Mar 8, 2013 6:03 AM   in reply to lrosenth

    Hello sir Irosenth,
    thank you very much for the quick reply.
      That behaves differently Acrobat XI I've also found very very confusing to me its special behavior in the Output Preview, see the link that I mentioned above.

    Please see this behavior. Now I do not know how in Acrobat XI find out what real CMYK values ​​are in PDF from the client included, unless it is not PDF / X.

    regards

    Ales Ulrych

     
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