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Does LR display Adobe RGB previews in Develop Module?

Jun 23, 2012 1:07 PM

Tags: #color_space #preview_files

Does LR display the stored Adobe RGB preview in Develop Module, or does it render directly from the ProPhoto RGB working space image being developed?

 

I thought LR displayed (Adobe RGB jpeg) previews in Library Module, but in Develop Module the ProPhoto working space image data was displayed.  The preview is created (or updated) only when the image is next displayed in Library Module.  And it explains why the image displayed in Develop is not always rendered in exactly the same way as the preview seen in Library. 

 

But the LR help implies that the Adobe RGB image previews are displayed even in Develop Module.

 

See http://help.adobe.com/en_US/lightroom/using/WS268F3399-80B2-4169-A598- 04C7F769FFA0.html which includes the statement: "The Library module stores all previews in the Adobe RGB color space. These previews are also used when printing in draft mode. Unless you choose differently in the Soft Proofing panel, the Develop module also displays photos in the Adobe RGB color space"

 

Is this right?  There have been so many discussion about how the image displayed in Develop is not the same as in Library.  In LR3 (not sure about LR4) noise and sharpening were not always displayed in Develop except at 1:1 zoom to save processing - implying it was rendering from the ProPhoto image in real time, not displaying the preview.  Or does it recreate the preview in real time each time a slider is touched, and display the Adobe RGB preview?

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 2:45 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    I'm pretty sure that you've found a bug in the documentation. What you quote contradicts everything I've seen written here and elsewhere on the subject. I'm extremely close to certain that what you see in the Develop Module is generated completely separately from the previews.

     

    Hal

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 3:18 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    Thanks.  It's interesting that this comment in the help is new to LR4.  It didn't say that in the corresponding page in the LR3 help. 

    In light of the comment on soft proofing (new in LR4), the documentation makes sense.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 3:49 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    Andrew Rodney wrote:

     

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    Thanks.  It's interesting that this comment in the help is new to LR4.  It didn't say that in the corresponding page in the LR3 help. 

    In light of the comment on soft proofing (new in LR4), the documentation makes sense.

    I'm afraid it doesn't to me!  Can you expand on your answer please?   Does the Develop Module display the cached Adobe RGB preview, as Library Module does?  It doesn't appear so to me, but I'm willing to be corrected, which is why I started this thread. 

    From page 340 of the superb Missing Lightroom Manual from the lovely Victoria Bampton:

     

     

    The previews are slightly different between Library and Develop and Fit and 1:1 views—why is that?

    The previews you see are rendered differently between the Library and Develop modules. Apart from the Develop module, Lightroom uses pre- rendered Adobe RGB compressed JPEGs for speed. That means there may be slight losses compared to Develop, particularly if your previews are set to Medium or Low Quality. Develop module, on the other hand, renders a preview from the original data and then updates it live as you make adjustments.

     

    You’ll also find that Adobe has supplied a utility (script) to retrieve Lightroom’s previews and save them as image files. The resulting JPEG is UNTAGGED and Adobe specifically instructs the user to assign Adobe RGB (1998) NOT ProPhoto RGB. Because that data IS in Adobe RGB (1998).

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 3:51 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

    I mean, why would it convert ProPhoto RGB to Adobe RGB and then convert again to monitor colour space?  Why do two colour space conversions each and every time a slider is moved instead of one?

    You answered that question yourself on the LuLa forum:

     

    That's because they're stored in jpeg format, and using a very wide colour space in 8-bit data isn't a good idea (you get large tonal steps).

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 3:52 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    I think the statement you quote is a mistake by the author of this help menu. We know that Lr is based on proPhoto RGB (or a derivative of proPhoto RGB). We know that Lr has never displayed or worked in any other color space. This sudden "appearance" of Adobe RGB must be a fluke. If it were real, don't you think that we would have heard about it - loud and clear?

     

    But I think you should make Adobe aware of this.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:03 PM   in reply to web-weaver

    web-weaver wrote:

     

    We know that Lr is based on proPhoto RGB (or a derivative of proPhoto RGB). We know that Lr has never displayed or worked in any other color space. This sudden "appearance" of Adobe RGB must be a fluke. If it were real, don't you think that we would have heard about it - loud and clear?

     

    But I think you should make Adobe aware of this.

    That’s quite untrue. What color space is used internally for processing is one thing. What the color space used for previews is not the same so don’t assume they are. The FACTS are, at one time, ProPhoto was used for previews in Develop only when the preview preferences were set to high. Otherwise it used Adobe RGB (1998). That fact goes against your statement no matter how loud and clear you post it. That behavior was changed around LR2.

     

    LR and ACR are not based on ProPhoto RGB. The internal processing color space used is a variant of ProPhoto RGB if all you care about is the chromaticity of the three primaries. The appearance of Adobe RGB isn’t sudden or a fluke. The awareness of end users to what is going on under the hood may be a fluke. Draft printing uses Adobe RGB (1998) and has for a long time.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:03 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    But Victoria doesn't say what you are saying!  She says "Apart from the Develop module, Lightroom uses pre- rendered Adobe RGB compressed JPEGs for speed"

    She says they are different because they are! That isn’t up to dispute. Lets see, at 1:1 can you see sharpening outside of Develop? The process IS different, the color space isn’t.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:08 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

    Yes, that's why Adobe RGB is now used for previews. 

     

    Right, Adobe RGB for previews. Simple. Processing (in all modules of underlying data), variant of ProPhoto RGB.

     

    How can the previews in Develop be Adobe RGB and at the same time not Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB? The processing color space and the preview color spaces do not have to be the same.

     

    So the previews are in Adobe RGB in Develop but not used or shown to the operator? The raw data clearly isn’t ProPhoto RGB agreed? It is raw data. If the data isn’t raw, it might be in ProPhoto but it could be in any RGB working space. Outside of soft proof, is that Adobe RGB (1998) or not?

     

    Or maybe the Adobe link is wrong, Victoria is wrong, the engineer who sent me email about the previews is wrong and Adobe RGB isn’t used in Develop for previews.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:17 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

    I don't think we're talking about the same thing!

    I can’t admit I know what you’re talking about.

     

    You point out a well known fact that Develop module can preview slightly differently than the other modules (and the preferences you set for previews does play a role). You assume this is due to the difference in color spaces. That alone makes no sense. For one, if you load an image in say Adobe RGB (1998) and toggle between that color space and ProPhoto while you soft proof, there is no visual change. There is a slight change toggling to sRGB. Where did the assumption that the difference in the modules, differences that Victoria and I admit to, comes from a difference in color space? You admit that the previews in Develop are in Adobe RGB and why ProPhoto isn’t a good idea. So if the previews are in Adobe RGB (1998) how can they also be in ProPhoto?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 4:26 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew Rodney,

    I tip my hat.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:29 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    "Right, Adobe RGB for previews. Simple. Processing (in all modules of underlying data), variant of ProPhoto RGB."

    No, not in all modules.  Not in Develop module.  That's what I'm saying.

    Please post the comment from the engineer about Adobe RGB being used in Develop for previews. 

     

    My NDA doesn’t allow me to post emails from engineers. I’m either lying or the engineer told me something incorrect or misinterpreted which is possible. At one time, ProPhoto was used. This was changed as I pointed out.

     

    What proof do you have that the previews in develop are in ProPhoto RGB? And that this difference is what causes the slight visual differences in modules? Because when I convert a document in Photoshop from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto or vise versa, the appear identical.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 23, 2012 4:33 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    CSS Simon wrote:

     

    You misquote or misunderstand almost everything I say!  For example: "You admit that the previews in Develop are in Adobe RGB"  No I didn't!

     

    Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you wrote about previews:

     

    Yes, that's why Adobe RGB is now used for previews.

     

    That's really nothing to do with how the image is rendered in Develop Module.

     

    Rendering (the data) and previewing are totally different! You are not clear Simon. The data that spits out of LR is in no doubt processed in a ProPhoto like color space. That is true for every module at some point (even book which ends up as sRGB to Blurb). Previewing that data, and the color space of that preview is a different story all together.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 23, 2012 5:59 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    Lets put things in perspective and simple language. You import images into Lightroom in the Library Module , Raw files, Tiff, Jpeg  etc. After the import Lightroom renders previews for the imported files and stores these previews alongside the Catalog file. The previews are aRGB color space. Done. This allows you to manage, rate, apply keywords, view and browse the files. Fine.

     

    Move over to the Develop Module, the develop module renders the raw files or the tiff, jpeg etc into its color working space, which is a variant of Pro Photo RGB, it does not use the previews that have been created by the Library Module. There is no option to change the working color space in the Develop Module. When you decide to export a copy of the developed image you can then chang the color space of the output file to sRGB, aRGB etc dependent to the use of the rendered file. To assist with the rendering of RAW files in the Develop Module, LR and/or ACR create and store info in a folder called ACR Cache, there is no use of the Previews during this process.

     

    This is one of the reasons that working with files in the Develop Module is not as quick as viewing files in the Library. Each and every time you make a change in the develop module, LR re-renders the original image and applys all the changes you have applied, and then makes changes to the Previews, so that viewing in the Library Module will be updated.   

     
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  • Victoria Bampton
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    Jun 24, 2012 1:27 AM   in reply to DdeGannes

    Denis, that fits my understanding too.

     

    Anywhere except Develop is using pre-rendered Adobe RGB previews.

     

    Develop module shows the AdobeRGB preview very briefly, before swapping to using the raw data in wider colour space.  (Example, photo with saturated reds; those reds are out of gamut in Library previews but show within gamut in Develop)

     

    (Andrew, I wouldn't mind a sneak at those emails, if I've misunderstood)

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 24, 2012 10:25 AM   in reply to Victoria Bampton

    Victoria Bampton wrote:

    (Andrew, I wouldn't mind a sneak at those emails, if I've misunderstood)

    Done.

     
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  • Victoria Bampton
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    Jun 24, 2012 10:35 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Perfect, those were the ones I remembered too, and were on the subject of the prerendered previews used everywhere except Develop.  So I think we've all just got our wires crossed and misunderstood each other.  I'm 99.9% sure that's a documentation bug - I'll drop it in the bugbase to find out.

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 24, 2012 11:18 AM   in reply to Hal P Anderson

    Hal P Anderson wrote:I'm extremely close to certain that what you see in the Develop Module is generated completely separately from the previews.

    I believe that is true, the question is, what is the color space and what are the other differences*? We’ll need an Adobe engineer to hopefully explain this.

     

    In terms of the good old preview (lrdata), well I’m darn sure that at least initially, you do see this in develop. Develop doesn’t use that preview cache beyond initially showing you something while it loads your raw file. I have that on pretty good authority. That data should be Adobe RGB but at one time it was ProPhoto. Develop then uses the full pixel data of the raw to produce a preview. Some of this data is saved into a cache and presumably the same functionality is now used for DNG’s using the Fast Load preview option storing processed image data. I’m not sure that image data is partially or fully processed and has a defined color space.

     

    *the big question is, why the visual disconnect between Develop and other modules that users report (complain about). Part of this is due to performance in modules other than Develop. For example, I’ve heard that LR uses pre-generated previews for speed purposes in Library that are handled to some degree using the color management of the Operating System. There may very well be differences in how this transpires on differing OS’s. Add differences in the compression of a JPEG and this may partially explain the visual differences in modules.

     

     

    Develop module shows the AdobeRGB preview very briefly, before swapping to using the raw data in wider colour space.  (Example, photo with saturated reds; those reds are out of gamut in Library previews but show within gamut in Develop)

     

    I can’t replicate that effect on this end with a wide gamut display. I have images with very saturated and dark reds. I can switch between Library (fit) and Develop and they look identical to me. I can see on some images where I assume the high quality Develop preview is NOT built, a slight difference in tone as the preview is created (rather quickly) in Develop (loading message). I’d expect that initial preview is the good old previews we’ve been discussing but that doesn’t explain why moving from Develop to Library and back produce the identical previews if one were presumably in a different color space (or if the color space alone were the issue in the disconnect I’m not able to produce with these images).

     
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  • Victoria Bampton
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    Jun 24, 2012 11:41 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Andrew Rodney wrote:

     

    I can’t replicate that effect on this end with a wide gamut display. I have images with very saturated and dark reds. I can switch between Library (fit) and Develop and they look identical to me. I can see on some images where I assume the high quality Develop preview is NOT built, a slight difference in tone as the preview is created (rather quickly) in Develop (loading message). I’d expect that initial preview is the good old previews we’ve been discussing but that doesn’t explain why moving from Develop to Library and back produce the identical previews if one were presumably in a different color space (or if the color space alone were the issue in the disconnect I’m not able to produce with these images).

     

     

    I have an image that I can reproduce it on 2 different computers (Mac 10.7.4 and Windows 7) on 2 different monitors (both EIZO - CG241W and CG243W) - email's on its way to you Andrew.  There may be something I'm missing, it could be something to do with EIZO monitors, it could be the calibration (although Windows was ColorNavigator software, Mac was BasICColor) - I'm open to suggestions.

     

    2 tests:

    1.  Open image in PS, duplicate image, convert one to AdobeRGB, leave the other as ProPhoto. 

    2.  Import into LR.  Create a VC.  Set the VC to secondary monitor locked loupe and show the other image in Develop (the reason for the VC is the secondary monitor shows the same as Develop when it's showing the same image, but shows the library preview at other times).  Turn on and off soft proofing, set to Adobe RGB.  Should go orangey (or at least it does here......)

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 24, 2012 12:19 PM   in reply to Victoria Bampton

    Victoria Bampton wrote:

    I have an image that I can reproduce it on 2 different computers (Mac 10.7.4 and Windows 7) on 2 different monitors (both EIZO - CG241W and CG243W)

    2 tests:

    1.  Open image in PS, duplicate image, convert one to AdobeRGB, leave the other as ProPhoto. 

    2.  Import into LR.  Create a VC.  Set the VC to secondary monitor locked loupe and show the other image in Develop (the reason for the VC is the secondary monitor shows the same as Develop when it's showing the same image, but shows the library preview at other times).  Turn on and off soft proofing, set to Adobe RGB.  Should go orangey (or at least it does here......)

     

    So when I open the ProPhoto image in Photoshop, dupe and convert to Adobe RGB (1998), the color appearance changes pretty radically. That makes me suspect some illegal color vaules in ProPhoto which is always problematic!

     

    Next, if I import both into LR, in Library, they appear identical. That alone is an issue since they don’t appear the same in Photoshop!

     

    That said, in Develop, the Adobe RGB image matches Photoshop pretty well. The ProPhoto matches what I see in Photoshop pretty well. We’d expect that. Users working in ProPhoto (myself included) would ***** and moan if what we saw in Develop and what we saw in Photoshop didn’t match at the same size.

     

    Does that mean that the preview in Develop uses ProPhoto? It makes that a more logical assumption at this point although I’d prefer to hear from an Adobe team member. But it begs the question, if the preivew isn’t ProPhoto, how come it matches Photoshop when viewing that ProPhoto doc? It would appear that the preview, at least with this rendered image (it isn’t a raw), takes on the color space of what the original data is. ProPhoto image, ProPhoto preview (like in Photoshop).

     

    But then what is the processing and color space path with non rendered images?

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 24, 2012 12:28 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    Adding a rendered image (in the case of Victoria’s ProPhoto test) complicates things a bit until we get clarity from Adobe. I would suspect that the preview color space of rendered images match the image itself. Just like Photoshop. If you import an image in sRGB, Bruce RGB, Wide Gamut RGB, ColorMatch RGB, does it make sense that the Develop preview is anything but those color spaces? I suppose it is possible that ProPhoto RGB (or maybe MelissaRGB) is the preview color space for every and all rendered images.

     

    But what about raw? ProPhoto RGB or MelissaRGB (or none of the above)?

     
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  • Victoria Bampton
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    Jun 24, 2012 12:31 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    That file I sent you was originally raw (only switched to TIFF to confirm in PS) - and I can reproduce the same colours from the raw file.

     

    I believe that Develop is ProPhotoRGB or MelissaRGB, but I'm not 100% on which.  I'm hunting back through emails to see if I can find a verified reference to it.

     
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  • Victoria Bampton
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    Jun 25, 2012 12:32 PM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    We have confirmation!  It's the same for all file types, and it's the color primaries that are important in Develop, so ProPhotoRGB and MelissaRGB are both correct answers.  Library/elsewhere prerendered previews are definitely AdobeRGB.  It's the documentation that's wrong.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jun 25, 2012 12:59 PM   in reply to CSS Simon

    Apology in advance if already answered - I haven't read this whole thread, but:

     

    Develop module will/does display library preview (AdobeRGB) momentarily, if need be, when it first starts rendering the develop view (ProPhotoRGB). Once loading is well underway, the preview is scrubbed in favor of the progressing or finished develop view.

     

    You can actually see the distinct phases if you watch closely:

     

    1. lib preview

    2. rough develop view

    3. refined develop view

     

    (this assumes develop view is not already cached in ram)

     

    R

     
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  • Andrew Rodney
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    Jun 25, 2012 3:13 PM   in reply to Victoria Bampton

    Victoria Bampton wrote:

    It's the documentation that's wrong.

    Well it isn’t clear that’s for sure! It should state that initially the previews are in Adobe RGB but then quickly (?) update to using ProPhoto primaries. That would clarify why when we see ‘loading’ there is a visual disconnect until the high quality previews in ProPhoto primaries kick in. After that, it still doesn’t explain the differences so many report in the other modules which I’m now wondering have something to do with the OS and the JPEG previews. As long as we can communicate that this is ‘normal’ and to always view in Develop for an ‘accurate’ preview that matches Photoshop, that should go a long way to avoiding folks believing there is something wrong going on.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 4, 2012 11:28 AM   in reply to Andrew Rodney

    I have an observation that may be relevant to this thread.  A friend is using LR 4.1 on a new wide-gamut NEC monitor.  (It sounds like it is profiled/calibrated correctly with their software and the colorimeter that came with it; Win 7.)

     

    She recently noticed, with RAW files  imported from a new Canon 7D, that reds are very exaggerated in the Develop module compared to the Library.  Changing magnification makes no diffrence.  What does make a diffrence is setting the Camera Calibration profile to anything except Adobe Standard.  With any other profile the colors in the two modules match. (Of course colors change between the different profiles.) 

     

    I went over to check for myself and there is a remarkable difference between the two modules, and it is just with reds.  In   images using her older Canon 60D there seems to be less difference.  We're going to set up tests with several different cameras, shooting the same scene (a stop sign in full sun) and see if there is less of a discrepancy with some cameras than others.

     

    But in the meantime, I wonder if this isn't indicative of a problem with the Adobe Standard profile for the 7D and possibly other cameras?  This is only noticeable on a wide gamut monitor -- there is no difference using her RAW images when I import into my LR 4.1 and view on my older "narrow gamut" Eizo CE210W.  Another friend with a new wide-gamut Eizo  sees the same red issue when she imports the RAW files on which this issue were noted.  She's also using LR 4.1.  (I can't lay my hands on the model now but I had checked and it's 97% of the Adobe RGB gamut and also sounds corretly profiled/calibrated.)

     

    Nothing in the previous discussion touched on the Camera Calibration profile.  Is it an issue, especially the Adobe Standard profile, and possibly particularly in the case of the Canon 7D?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 6, 2012 10:33 AM   in reply to DianeMiller

    I've started a new thread for this issue.

     
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