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hpg1

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Black Becomes Gray Only When Image Placed

Jul 14, 2012 4:48 PM

I am new at InDesign (CS5) and having a problem.

I have the output set to rich black etc and have a file with pages that have an RGB 0,0,0 black background. When I put text on a page it seems to export to pdf with a jet black background. However if I place a .jpg image on the page and then reexport the exact same page the background will turn to dark gray not black. Remove the image and it exports as black again. The picture can be quite small but yet the entire page packground goes dark gray. What gives? I can't figure it out. Any help appreciated.

TRhanks.

Howard

4086 Views 28 Replies Latest reply: Bo LeBeau, Jul 17, 2012 5:01 PM

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1. Steve Werner,

Jul 14, 2012 6:53 PM in reply to hpg1

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What is your Transparency Blend Mode (found under the Edit menu)—RGB or CMYK? Do you have overprint preview turned on (under the View menu)?

Choose Window > Output > Flattener Preview? Turn on Highlight: Transparent Objects. Do you see anything in pink (transparent)?

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2. hpg1,

Jul 14, 2012 7:05 PM in reply to Steve Werner

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Transparency Blend Space is Document RGB. Overprint Preview is off.

Ah, I don't know what it means but when I do what you say with the Highlight TransparentOobjects all the pages that come out a bit gray when converting to pdf all have the same transparent object on them that is highlighted in pink. Why does that small transparent object make the whole page background lighter than it should be? Any ideas how to fix it? You found the unifying cause!

Howard

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3. Steve Werner,

Jul 14, 2012 7:59 PM in reply to hpg1

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Well, I'm trying to work it all out from your description.

Another question: What PDF export setting did you use when you created the PDF file? I'd guess you picked PDF/X-1a or PDF/X-3, right?

If so (or if you used a PDF output with Acrobat compatibility set to Acrobat 4), your pages which contained transparency were flattened. Flattening will force all objects to the transparency blending space chosen causing color shifts.

Try choosing a PDF preset setting which uses Acrobat 5 compatibility (High Quality Print, Press Quality, etc.) Flattening will not be necessary.

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4. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 2:50 AM in reply to Steve Werner

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I am using a custom preset but it is set to Acrobnat 7 compatability. Maybe some setting within it? I really appreciate your taking time to try to figure this one out!

Howard

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5. Rob Day,

Jul 15, 2012 5:25 AM in reply to hpg1

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Why does that small transparent object make the whole page background lighter than it should be?

Is your PDF destined for print or screen? If it's for screen (you want to keep all of the objects as RGB) export to PDF/X-4, which prevents flattening and color conversions.

If it's for print set your Transparency Blend Space to CMYK and make the black background a CMYK rich black—something like 70|60|60|100. Also make sure Black Point Compensation is checked in Color Settings:

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6. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 8:53 AM in reply to Rob Day

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Thanks....when I export to PDF/X-4 all the pages have a slightly less than black background......at least they are consistent, but not the proper deep black.

Maybe this will be a bit of a clue. The small image that has a transparent background that makes the pages go less than deep black is actually a PSD file (it is an image of a small audio speaker to click on to hear audio that will be embedded. When I turn the psd into a jpg on a black background and place it on the page, the pages are now dark black but the situation is less than optimal as I can see the edges of the black square the audio icon is in if I put it on the black background, plus I can't have it overlap an area of the page that is not black background since it is no longer transparent.

Perhaps it is the PSD file type? Is there a way to have an image on a transparent background (like the audio icon) that is another file format that I might try. (JPG can't be transparent, is that correct?).

Thanks

Howard

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7. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 9:03 AM in reply to hpg1

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Actually, with levels I can make the black on the jpg dark enough so I don't see the borders when I ppace it on the black page background. But that doesn't help me if I want to place the audio icon over non black portions of the page. It is a potential compromise that would work but I would still love to be able to place the icon on a transparent background over any page content and still have the page background be deep black if possible.

Howard

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8. Rob Day,

Jul 15, 2012 10:13 AM in reply to hpg1

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Thanks....when I export to PDF/X-4 all the pages have a slightly less than black background......at least they are consistent, but not the proper deep black.

So the black shifts in Acrobat not ID? Are you viewing with Acrobat's Output Preview open? If so what's the Simulation profile set to?

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9. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 1:28 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Not sure what you meabn by Acrobats Output Preview......oddly when I look at the pdf file on my ipad it all looks deep black but on two PCs the pages with the transparent psd file look lighter than the page backgrounds without it....odd

Howard

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10. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 2:24 PM in reply to hpg1

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I hate to say it but I think I am just going to give up and use the icon with black and place it on black and forget the transparency. Too much of a pain in the arse to deal with..

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11. Rob Day,

Jul 15, 2012 3:48 PM in reply to hpg1

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Not sure what you meabn by Acrobats Output Preview

AcrobatPro provides a number of soft proofing options that will show you how a document will print or how RGB objects will get converted into CMYK.

If your ID and PS black objects are really 0|0|0 RGB, your Transparency Blend Space is really RGB, and you don't have Overprint, Separation Preview, or Proof Colors turned on then 0|0|0 RGB will always display as absolute black in InDesign. Here's an ID black and a PS black with transparency:

If I turn on Proof Colors there are setups which would preview 0|0|0 RGB as something less than absolute black—something like this:

AcrobatPro also has soft proofing tools which could effect the preview of 0|0|0:

But in Acrobat Reader there's no soft proofing so I think 0|0|0 will always display as absolute black, so in your case you should use Reader because that's how the document will likely display online:

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12. hpg1,

Jul 15, 2012 5:46 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Hmmm......I was all excited that the problem would be gone in Acrobat Reader since that is what most people reading the pdf would be using, so I downloaded Reader X. No such luck.....same problem.

Howard

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13. Rob Day,

Jul 15, 2012 7:06 PM in reply to hpg1

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Can you post a sample page along with the image? I can't replicate your problem RGB black with or without transparency exports unchanged for me.

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14. hpg1,

Jul 16, 2012 3:31 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Not sure how to post just a single page from the 60 page pdf......

Howard

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15. Rob Day,

Jul 16, 2012 4:09 PM in reply to hpg1

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The ID file would be more useful.

Copy a problem page into a new doc, package it along with the image(s)—don't need to include fonts—and email it to the address in my profile.

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16. hpg1,

Jul 16, 2012 6:58 PM in reply to Rob Day

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sent...thanks

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17. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 3:45 AM in reply to hpg1

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I can't see any problems with either the ID or PDF file. Acrobat shows the black as 0|0|0 with any RGB profile loaded.

Here's your PDF as a page on my server and it looks ok viewed in a browser also.

http://www.zenodesign.com/ftp/problem.pdf

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18. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 5:38 AM in reply to hpg1

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One thing that is changing is the type weight which creates an illusion of the black changing. The flattener preset in your ID doc was set to Low, which is affecting the display of the transparent page 1 in Acrobat and some browser PDF plugins.

Here's your doc saved as PDFX-4 with a high res flattener. In this case the text weight looks the same on both pages in both Acrobat and a browser:

http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/problemx4hr.pdf

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19. Bo LeBeau,

Jul 17, 2012 8:07 AM in reply to Rob Day

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Hmm . . . Rivers of Steel, Carrie Furnace.

hpg1,
By any chance, are you Howard Grill?

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20. hpg1,

Jul 17, 2012 10:45 AM in reply to Rob Day

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Rob....now things are getting interesting! I went to the 2 page InDesign file I sent you and found the flattener presets in InDesign. I went ahead and set it to high and then reexported and it looked the same, which is to say one page deep black and the other light black. So I went back and pulled down the preset menu and lo and behold it was no longer set to high res, but back to low res. Tried again and when I set to high it seems to go back to low when I pulled it back down. I set it to high and exported as a new preset and then loaded it as a new preset and when I went to choose it from the list it got saved as "Low Res Copy1" even though I had saved it with a file name "High Res".

So how do you get the high res flattener to apply itself to the file so I can see if I can duplicate the "fix" to the problem????

Thanks for persisting with me.

Howard

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21. hpg1,

Jul 17, 2012 10:46 AM in reply to Bo LeBeau

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Hi Bo,

Yup that would be me. Have we met or corresponded before?? Trying to place your name!

Howard

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22. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 12:37 PM in reply to hpg1

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Looking at this more closely there is a shift in black when you export your doc flattened, which includes an interactive PDF.

If you export a PDF/X-4 the transparency is not flattened and the black stays at 0|0|0. Your PDF is not X-4, I assume because you need to export an interactive PDF.

It looks like a bug to me—I didn't bother screen capturing and measuring the black at first because Acrobat shows it as 0|0|0, but it is displaying as 8|9|8. It seems like a bug because it only appears to happen when the transparency on the page is from a placed image.

There does seem to be a work around—try including a completely transparent InDesign object somewhere on the page—that worked for me.

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23. hpg1,

Jul 17, 2012 1:03 PM in reply to Rob Day

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I made a 10 pixel by 10 pixel transparent image with nothing in it but the transparent background layer and placed it in a frame on the page and exported. Still the same with slightly lighter page than the one with no transparent image on it. I assume that is what you meant by including a completely transparent InDesign object on the page, is that correct?

Glad to know that I am not going crazy though with what I was seeing. I am really starting to think that it would be nice to not have this happen but that simply dealing with no transparent objects would be much much simpler!

Howard

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24. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 1:22 PM in reply to hpg1

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made a 10 pixel by 10 pixel transparent image with nothing in it but the transparent background layer and placed it in a frame on the page and exported.

No not an image. Draw out a rectangle on the page (can be any size), fill it with a color and set the rectangle's transparency (not color percentage) to 0. It has to be an InDesign native object not another image.

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25. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 1:54 PM in reply to hpg1

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Here's a screen capture of an interactive PDF where the ID page included a red filled rectangle set to 20%. You can see the RGB readout of the capture in PS is 0|0|0

Here's an interactive PDF of the page without any native transparent objects and your one transparent PSD—the readout is 8|9|8:

Message was edited by: Rob Day

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26. hpg1,

Jul 17, 2012 3:52 PM in reply to Rob Day

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YESS..........

Unbelievable, I thought I must have been doing something wrong but doing just as you said.....placing a small rectangle on the master page and filling it with color and setting transparency to 0 totally fixes the problem on all the pages with transparent psd files!

Thanks very much for taking the time to help me out.

Is it simply a bug in InDesign? Why should that fix it and what ever gave you the idea to try that as a solution...I mean is there a chain of logic as to why that should work??? I am using CS5 and wonder if it was fixed in CS6.

Howard

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27. Rob Day,

Jul 17, 2012 4:34 PM in reply to hpg1

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I did my testing in CS6 so no it has not been fixed—it probably has never been reported, it's hard to see.

I think it is a bug, I can't think of any reason why 0|0|0 black would convert to something other than 0|0|0 when making RGB-to-RGB conversions, so its not likely an expected color management thing.

I realized it was a place image problem when I tried eliminating your .psd from the mix and testing my own transparency.

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28. Bo LeBeau,

Jul 17, 2012 5:01 PM in reply to hpg1

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Howard,

Bo LeBeau is just a login name nothing more.

Like yourself I like taking photographs at the Carrie Furnace.

I may have commented on your blog in the past.

take care,
Bo

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