Adobe Community: Blue tilde over an imported character

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1. Peter Spier,

Jul 20, 2012 9:33 AM in reply to Ken Krugh

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Screen shot please...

Is this blue tilde visible when non-printing characters are hidden?

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2. Ken Krugh,

Jul 20, 2012 9:55 AM in reply to Peter Spier

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Hmm, no, its not visible when non-printing characters are hidden. Incidentally, the same thing seems to be happening with other characters, but a tilde doesn't appear above them. Of the two plus signs you see here one was imported and one was typed in. The one that's typed in gets found with a find, the one that was imported does not.

Thanks for taking a look!

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3. [Jongware],

Jul 20, 2012 10:21 AM in reply to Ken Krugh

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With just the character selected, what does the Info panel display as its Unicode?

(I'm thinking it works just like spaces -- ID knows lots of them, but to a font they all appear as a 'regular' space. This might be a 'regular' character for which ID substitutes a real minus.

... I've never ever seen this one before ...)

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4. Ken Krugh,

Jul 20, 2012 10:38 AM in reply to [Jongware]

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When you say that "ID knows" you mean the Unicode code points, right?

Imported minus: 0xF02D

Typed minus: 0x2D

Imported plus: 0xF02B

Typed plus: 0x2B

F02D is in the private use area. Could this be more something Word is doing rather than InD?

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5. [Jongware],

Jul 20, 2012 11:00 AM in reply to Ken Krugh

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For a font that is internally tagged "Symbol" (which has nothing to do with the old fashioned math font of the same name), InDesign automatically moves all of its characters into the U+F000 range. That is to prevent loosing the correct code for any ol' Dingbat.

The character code is actually the one for a hyphen, not a minus, but that's okay. The hyphen in the original Symbol font *looks* like a proper minus.

Snce the imported codes get U+F000 added to them, you could use Find-and-replace to change them to "real" characters. You can search for the literal code

<F02D>

and replace with your hyphen, or (better!) an actual minus, whose code is

<2212>

... Geeky as it may sound, yes I *do* know its Unicode from memory ...

(The ironic backstory here is that the canonical Symbol font, the one *called* "Symbol", imports extremely badly since CS4. Its character set is *not* correctly translated, neither to the U+F000 range nor to actually correct Unicode equivalences. Hence, you get an 'a' instead of an alpha and an '£' instead of a >=. The 'character set' it uses is actually the original worthless Windows Latin-1 "plain" table -- and InDesign attepts to use *that* to translate Symbol symbols, and so its fails miserably. Adobe broke this in, I believe, CS4, and I don't think I've heard it got fixed in later versions. "Broke", because it worked just fine in CS3.

Irony-upon-irony, the internal files of InDesign still contain a Symbol-font-to-Unicode translation table. It just doesn't get *used*.)

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6. Rob Day,

Jul 20, 2012 1:16 PM in reply to Ken Krugh

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The Bitstream Symbol font shows the tilde invisible for any missing basic latin glyph. There are no roman capitals glyphs in bitstream symbol, so ABCDEF etc. all show as invisibles. F02D finds the invisible, but so does the code for any missing latin glyph, i.e., 0047 G:

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7. Ken Krugh,

Jul 20, 2012 1:16 PM in reply to Rob Day

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Yes, Jongware, completely geeky. I love it!

This font IS an oldie-moldie one like the old Symbol font. Opening it up in the FontLab it has all the same encodings as the Symbol font. This project has a whole bunch of scary math so we needed something that MathType could use and we've used this guy in Ventura publisher for years and our client likes the look of it. This is out first real foray into math with InD.

So, the unicode values I'm getting from Word (and InD) on the imported characters are the same codepoints I'm seeing when opening the font in FontLab. So InD is simply importing what comes from Word but "manages" (in some way) the underlying text when I type in InDesign, right? That must be InD's "knowing" you referred to earlier. In that InD knows is a "Symbol" encoded font. Right Jongware?

Rob: I'm afraid I'm not getting the point you're making, my ignorance entirely, I'm sure. Are you saying that the "tilde invisble" is what we're seeing above the minus? If so just what does that indicate? Given that the imported plus and equal sign exhibit the same kind of behavoir in the searches shouldn't we be seeing a tilde above those as well?

Sorry if I'm being thick and missing something here.

Oh, for those who might be interested. MathType says they are working on supporting Unicode more and OTF, though it didn't sound like something that was immediately pending.

Thanks yet again for bailed out my semi-geeky behind.

All the best,

Ken

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8. Rob Day,

Jul 20, 2012 1:47 PM in reply to Ken Krugh

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Rob: I'm afraid I'm not getting the point you're making, my ignorance entirely, I'm sure. Are you saying that the "tilde invisble" is what we're seeing above the minus? If so just what does that indicate? Given that the imported plus and equal sign exhibit the same kind of behavoir in the searches shouldn't we be seeing a tilde above those as well?

The only invisible I can think of that has a charcter showing along with it is an auto hyphen—hidden characters are hidden—things like spaces, line breaks, etc.

I get the invisible you are showing when I set the cursor to the bitstream symbol font and type anything that's not in the font's basic latin glyph set (ABCD etc.). Glyph panel>Show>Basic Latin.

I can imitate the invisible over the minus character by reverse tracking or kerning. What does your kerning/tracking show as when you select the text?

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9. ja3754,

Jul 21, 2012 4:13 AM in reply to Rob Day

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A small hyphen-minus (FE63) entered from the Mac Character Viewer in the default Minion Pro Regular displays the tilde, but the InDesign glyph panel shows this as Unicode 002D.

Not sure if this is relevant or just adding to the confusion.

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10. Rob Day,

Jul 21, 2012 5:12 AM in reply to ja3754

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I don't get the invisible—I wonder what's different?

What you're showing looks like an auto hyphen, but you can't keyboard that

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11. ja3754,

Jul 21, 2012 7:14 AM in reply to Rob Day

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To Rob Day: The character was inserted using the Character Viewer (part of the Mac OS, not from the InDesign Glyph panel).

If Substituted Glyphs is checked in Preferences > Composition, the tilded characters are highlighted.

It is interesting that the InDesign Glyph panel shows the selected character (with the tilde) as 002D, but a Find/Change (Glyph) for 002D won’t find it. If the character is pasted directly into Find/Change (Text) it shows as <FE63> and this will find it.

So the Find/Change (Glyph) panel won't find substituted glyphs.

[I know these glyphs are different from the OP's example, but I'm just trying to get my head around how this all works.]

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Blue tilde over an imported character

Jul 20, 2012 9:24 AM

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