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Formatting a budget with tabs

Jul 24, 2012 4:25 AM

I am pretty good at using tabs but I am trying to set a budget and it has specialized needs and I can't figure out how to do it. Below is a shot of what it has to look like (taken from an old book set with XyVision):

 

fbudsum_r12_SAMPLE.jpg

The important thing I want it to do is have the text and leaders end on the right (where "Program." ends) and the figures to the right aligned. Those numbers almost act like they set past the right margin and there has to be a way in Design to duplicate this.

 

Thanks everyone!

 
Replies
  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 24, 2012 5:39 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    You want to set a decimal tab (or right-aligning tab) at the right margin, using a dot leader. Set a left indent, a first-line indent (the same number but negative), and tab stop at the left, to get the hanging indent with the parenthetical numbers. Set a large indent at the right, long enough to accomodate your longest number, so that long description texts will wrap before they get to the number area. When typing, put a tab after the parenthetical number, and another before the budget number. Any more than two tabs in a line can cause buggy behavior. In the example, the right margin isn't constant, but is larger for very large numbers, so if you've got a siutation like that, create several paragraph styles with varying right margins.

     

    If the gap between the dot leader and the number is important, you could try putting in em-spaces after the tab but before the number -- I can't remember if the dot tab leaders honor spaces before numbers in this kind of situation. Try it out. If nothing else works, a couple of Xs filled with the "paper" color would be an awkward kludge.

     

    Note that in fairly recent versions of Indesign these tabs outside the right margin didn't work properly. It was a pain. But versions 5 and 6 do support this, IIRC.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 24, 2012 7:22 AM   in reply to RodneyA

    You may need to add a negative last line indent to get the number to move beyond the text.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 24, 2012 7:53 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    I did this without tabs—just one Right Indent Tab (Shift-Tab) with a dotted underline applied to create the leader:

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 10.45.30 AM.png

    Here it is with invisibles showing. I used an en-space to get extra space around the leader and a negative first line indent with a soft return (Shift-Return) for the overflow line:

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 10.47.25 AM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 24, 2012 8:04 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    You cheated, though, to get the line break. You added a forced line break after blaboratus.

     

    Setting a right indent value in the paragraph style and a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 24, 2012 8:06 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Looks like you've got it, though Peter's solution is much more elegant than forced line breaks. The advantage to using tabs for those left numbers is that once you get to number 10, they'll still align on the wrap. Then I usually do yet one more decimal tab at the beginning of each line, because I like list numbers 9 and 10 to align at the right, which is not only typographically correct, but keeps a consistent space between the list numbers and their text.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 24, 2012 10:22 AM   in reply to RodneyA

    a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically

     

    Very cool. It  never occurred to me that you can offset from the right as well as the left.

     

    The advantage to using tabs for those left numbers is that once you get to number 10, they'll still align on the wrap.

     

    An Indent to Here mark would align the text, this is still tabless

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 1.14.28 PM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 24, 2012 10:24 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Rob Day wrote:

     

    a negative last line indent allows the number to hang automatically

     

    Very cool. It  never occurred to me that you can offset from the right as well as the left.

    As far as I can tell, that's about all the last line indent is good for.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 24, 2012 11:22 AM   in reply to RodneyA

    because I like list numbers 9 and 10 to align at the right,

    Andrew I read too fast I think you mean this, which is better:

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-24 at 2.19.50 PM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 25, 2012 2:58 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Although I'm not a big fan of double tab stops, you could have a right-aligned stop at the red line with a leader, then another one at the right edge of the text frame without. There could be a case to make that a table without stroked cells would be an option.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 25, 2012 4:58 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    In my example I added another tab before the Right Indent Tab:

    Screen shot 2012-07-25 at 7.45.30 AM.png

    Note that the text has to be justified and if you were to change the column width the tab for the leader would have to be adjusted. The text also has a lot of white space characters to track—tab>number>tab>indent to here>text>en space>tab>right indent tab>number—so if your not used to that a table might be easier to control.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 25, 2012 6:28 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Michael_OSP wrote:

    What I want is the text including wrapping text and leaders under schedule to all end a specific spot (the red line in the screen shot included below) and the budget dollar amounts to be at the right margin.

    fbudsum_sample.jpg

    As suggested before, set a right indent on the paraph style (at the position of the red line) and a negative last line indent equal to the right indent. To make the leader stop there as well, also set a right aligned tab with leader at the red line (to which the leader is applied) and another tab, without a leader, anywhere after that (to turn the leader off again, bu tthis tab will never be used). Insert both a regular tab (the right aligned one with the leader) and a right indent tab just before the number:

    Hanging numbers.png

     

    You can eliminate the second tab that's used to turn off the leader if you don't use a leader at all, but instead create a custom underline to use as the leader, which I think is more elegant, and apply it as a nested character style in the paragraph style definition. Your nested styles would then be [none] up to 1 tab, [custom underline style] through 1 tab.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 26, 2012 3:24 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Try setting your right tab for the leader at the right indent mark:

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 6.19.40 AM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 26, 2012 4:29 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Now you've got 4 tab marks. Keep the one lined up with your right indent and delete the extra one to the right.

     

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 7.26.32 AM.png

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 26, 2012 6:05 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Now you don't have the Right Indent Tab (Shift-Tab) after the leader tab and before the number. The Right Indent Tab isn't actually a tab—it isn't controlled by the Tab panel.

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-26 at 8.01.16 AM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 26, 2012 6:30 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Looks to me like maybe you forgot to add the last line negative indent to allow the number to hang.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 26, 2012 6:31 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP
     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 26, 2012 5:54 PM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    My third tab has an underline applied, I got the dots via underline options and it could be saved as a character style.

     

    Don't drop the third tab marker exactly on the right indent marker—if you do it doesn't get applied. In your last capture you only have 2 tab markers. In my file you can see the third tab marker slightly to the right of the right indent marker.

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 27, 2012 4:20 AM   in reply to Michael_OSP

    Not sure, I think you have to use the underline and not the leader.

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-27 at 7.19.28 AM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 27, 2012 5:02 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    I've sort of left the two of you alone to deal with this, but if I'm understanding the last question (and I didn't download Rob's file so I'm shooting in the dark), if you use a right-indent tab rahter than a right aligned tab (and I think you should), the right Indent tab picks up the leader from the last tab set in the paragraph style. You can't, in fact, actually apply a leader directly to a right-indent tab because it never appears in the tabs panel to select. An old trick to make a leader was to set a tab beyond the right edge of the text frame in the paragraph style and apply the leader to that (I learned that from Dave Saunders).

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 27, 2012 5:24 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    An old trick to make a leader was to set a tab beyond the right edge of the text frame in the paragraph style and apply the leader to that (I learned that from Dave Saunders).

     

    Doesn't seem to work in this case

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 27, 2012 5:31 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Applies the leader to a right indent tab, in case I wasn't clear. If that isn't happening, I'd have to see the file...

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 27, 2012 7:21 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    In my example it also drops the number down a line

     

    Screen shot 2012-07-27 at 10.19.04 AM.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 27, 2012 8:30 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Does that far right tab have a leader added?

     

    And I have no clue why #1 is on two lines, but #2 & #3 are not.

     

    In this example the first tab. at the right indent, has no leader, and the selected tab outside the text frame width has a hyphen/space leader applied:

     

    Hanging numbers w_leader.png

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 27, 2012 8:57 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    2, 3... are using the underline method, and the right tab does have the leader

     
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  • Rob Day
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    Jul 27, 2012 9:02 AM   in reply to Peter Spier

    Try it with one line of text. Also my text is justified.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Jul 27, 2012 9:37 AM   in reply to Rob Day

    Rob, if you look, you'll see the first and fourth paragraphs in my sample above are only one line. I've just checked again and it works just the same here whther the te text is justified or left aligned. I've tested in CS3 (which happened to be open) and in CS5.5 just to see if something has changed.

     
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