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16 channel audio mixing

Jun 2, 2011 6:08 AM

  Latest reply: nw42, Nov 11, 2013 9:25 AM
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 11:15 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    CS6 has the ability to send out 16 split discrete channels.

     

    Here is an example for Dolby 5.1 but the method can be extrapolated to other needs.

     

    http://www.retooled.net/?cat=6&paged=3

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 12:10 PM   in reply to lasvideo

    So what file format do you output 8 channels to?

     

    This topic is to export more than 5.1 and you seem to have made a tutorial that misses the fact that premiere cannot do this.

     

    You can set up more channels and play more channel with the right type of sound card , but its pointless as you cannot save them. Even though wav can hold more channels adobe have not bothered to implement it.

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 12:18 PM   in reply to spoof

    CS6 can output multichanel.  Check the Help file for instructions.

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 12:18 PM   in reply to lasvideo

    I need the solution of recording of more than 6 channels of sound to IMX or HDCAM SR deck. Imagine the situation when you doing  remastering of old movie. How you do that? You scan original negative or positive film print with filmscanner, repair it, and than you should record Master cassette. At the same time Audio lab is doing digital remastering of audio tracks of the movie. All audio tracks must be on Master cassette. Most of major broadcasters and filmmakers (BBC, Discovery, etc..) are using HDCAM SR for their archives and InterExchange. They also  requesting Multichannel Audio for their Masters. Usually all 12 tracks of HDCAM SR are used. You should include: Stereo mix, Stereo M&E, Mono mix, 5.1 Full mix, etc... What if your client brought you recordered Master tape with Video track and asking to insert audio channels into it? Or what if you need to Insert only a few audio channels into Master cassette? How do you suggest to do that job?

    I'm using Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (SD and HD interface with 16-channel audio). Blackmagic does support  Premiere CS5 and CS6. Also, it has it's own utility (called Media Express) which allows to do 'Insert editing'. Media Express from Blackmagic is able to do Assemble and Insert editing using AVI or MOV-files with Multichannel audio (but it does not operate with WAV or AIFF-files). That utility is able to Insert only one or several audio tracks to recorder.

    Now you can imagine the way: I should make Multichannel AV-file with MAC, than copy it to PC and only after that I can do the job. What's easier in that case to put Audio files directly to the timeline and push the 'Export to tape' button! Or at least export the AVI-file with Premiere and do the final editing using Blackmagic Media Express utility.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 12:35 PM   in reply to leoneed27

    How you do that?

     

    Normally you mix film audio outside of the NLE.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 12:41 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Hi Jim!

    Can you give me the link to Help file of CS6? I'm using CS5.5 and I'm only planning upgrade to CS6. But I must be sure that it has the needed feature without any tricks...

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 12:44 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    So I checked and cannot find anything saying more than 5.1 can be exported.

    Not 16 mono, not 8 stereo not even a 16 channel mixdown , nothing.

     

    Wav etc has no more options than cs5

     

    If you know where it says this I'd love to know.

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to leoneed27

    Couldn't find it in the Help file (not the best document this time 'round).

     

    But in the export settings, you can choose the number of channels you want to export to.  Both WAV and MXF OP1a allow for multichannel audio.  There may be other formats that allow this as well.

     

    Multichannel.png

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 1:01 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    So I am correct and you still cannot export more than 5.1 channels. Nothing has changed and cs6 is as useless as cs5 when it comes to using 16 channel mixes, and the above tutorial is also wrong as you cannot get channels 7 and 8 out whatever you do.

     

    Maybe you were trying to help but just saying , READ THE MANUAL, when you havnt read it yourself and also wrong is very dumb!

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 1:02 PM   in reply to spoof

    I put a new image in.  It clearly shows a 16 channel WAV export.

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 1:04 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    ok i take that back , i just looked and didnt see that.

    I am happy now

     
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    Aug 2, 2012 1:34 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Oh.... Finally it happenned! More than two years I was waiting for that moment!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 2, 2012 2:47 PM   in reply to leoneed27

    leoneed27 wrote:

     

    Does anyone know if feature of 16-channel audio export was included in version CS6? Thanks to all!

     

    Yes, it was.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 3, 2012 12:45 AM   in reply to Kevin Monahan

    My happiness was too early! That feature was included only into WAV-export! What was the problem to include it into AVI-export also?! Now it's one more time looks like half-of-job! :-(((((((((((( I guess how long it will take to fix that bug?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 3, 2012 12:48 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    MXF OP1a also allows multichannel export.

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 2:06 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    As I can see - QT output is also available with multichannel. But what was the problem to make AVI also?

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 2:17 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    I cannot see how to make a multichannel QT or find MXF OP1a.

     

    How do you make a 16 channel qt export?

     

    It doesnt really matter that avi doesnt hold multichannels , although it should, as you can just plonk a wav on the timeline bellow it. Its not as though your going to need to play a 16 channel avi anytime as it would only be for mastering right?

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 3:32 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    I tried 'Export to tape'. It also does not work with Blackmagic hardware (drivers version 9.6.1). Channel selector in 'Export to tape' window allow only 8 channels for tape mastering, even if timeline is16-channel. Also, it's impossible to close 'Export to tape' window. Capture with Blackmagic hardware does not work.

    The system is as follows:

    16-core motherboard with 24Gb of RAM, 14Tb Adaptec RAID and FX-5800 video card, system is working under Windows7 Ultimate edition, AV hardware is Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (driiver version 9.6.1).

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 7:59 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    'Export to tape' window allow only 8 channels for tape mastering

     

    Is that really surprising?  Are there any tape formats that allow 16 channels?

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 8:11 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    Capturing from tape and exporting to tape have been issues with Premiere and AJA and BM for a long time. Reports are the process is still broken, even thought attempts have been made to fix it. Google what Walter Biscardis experience has been.

     
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    Aug 3, 2012 8:36 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    MPEG IMX = 8 audio channels, HDCAM SR = 12 audio channels, most of SSD recorders are 16-channel's!

    16 channels of audio is now industry standard! Filmmakers are using it since middle of 1960s! And we are talking about PROFESSIONAL software. I think you understand, what I mean!

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Aug 6, 2012 10:07 AM   in reply to leoneed27

    I tried CS6 version and forunded a few bugs regardimg 16-channel audio.

    1) Adobe (Premiere and Audition) products are unable to process WAV files with size of more than 4Gb.

    Imagine 12-channel soundtrack of 90 minutes movie. The file size will be about 6.4Gb (at 48kHz, 16bit). For example, Nuendo or Pyramix can do it easy!

    2) Export of multitrack WAV files work incorrectly. The output volume level is increasing by more than +20db!

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:10 AM   in reply to leoneed27
     
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    Oct 14, 2012 3:01 AM   in reply to lasvideo

    Hi,

     

    important thread - I try to summariese some facts and recheck the current situation:

     

    1. Premiere can work with 16 discrete audio channels

     

    2. Import and export of 16ch audio is limited because of:

        a) no RF64 Broadcast WAV support resulting in "Unecpected Error" messages when the audio file is larger 4GB (this is a pitty because Adobe Audition already has it and RF64 Broadcast WAV is often used with high quality content e.g. for digital cinema)

     

        b) MXF OP1a has also 16ch support but is limited in video codec quality and framerates - max is 100MBit AVC Intra - no 24p mode is provided

            --> it's not supported to save audio only to MXF (you can do this with MOV or AVI containers)

            --> no support for 16ch 24Bit as needed for digital cinema (only 8ch 24bit)

            --> Audition doesnt support MXF conatiners - so no possible workflow

     

        c) AVI is limited to 5.1 audio export - no way to store 16ch - AVI also doesn't seems to be a good backup format (WAV is a universal standard instead - you can read a WAV with all software tools on all plattforms)

     

    3. Send 5.1 Track to Audition results in an error due to filesize larger 4GB

     

    4. I don't understand how the "Direct Output Assignment" dropdown in the Premiere mixer works for the "multi channel audio" seqeunces.

        It is routing the audio by audio pairs - 1+2, 2-3, 3-4 and so on. Why the hell??? This is stupid!

        If I have a mono Lfe audio Track I can't assign it to a output channel but have to create a "virtual stereo pair" - now the routing doesn't works any longer and I have to separate the two mono channels by hand with the stereo panner... is it such a rocket scienece to implement a function to assign one input track to one output channel?

     

    5. It would be great to be able to simply export a audio track from a sequence into a wave file (not the clip!! - the clip hasn't the running time of the seqeunce...)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2012 8:30 AM   in reply to nw42

    The only error I found with the above review is that you can indeed have AVC-I 100 at 24p.  (And I'm not sure that's such a limiting factor when it comes to quality.  AVC-I 100 is a Master Quality codec.)

     

    I'm curious about something, though.  Why would DC require 16 channel?  They're all presented in 5.1 anyway, so shouldn't you be delivering 5.1?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2012 11:55 AM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Hi Jim,

     

    If I try to export MXF OP1a "AVC Intra Class 100 1080" I only get 23.976 / 25 / 29.976 fps to choose from...

     

    So I couldn't save a 24p audio mix to 23.976 as the footage runtime wouldn't match... (If we get 23.976 master footage we conform it to 24 and timestrech the audio accordingly.)

     

    to digital cinema: The DCI standard currently specifies up to 16 audio channels with 24Bit and 48/96KHz.

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Initiatives

     

    The 5.1 audio mix is the default for a DCP (Digital Cinema Package) today.

    A rising count of DCP's are mastered in 7.1 and theathers with 7.1 audio installations become more and more common. Take a look at your Bluray collection and home cinema amplifier 7.1 already there...

     

    If you take into account that a 7.1 mix can be extended by additional channels for hearing or visually impaired it's not too exotic to find DCP's (Digital Cinema Packages) today that use 10 or more  audio channels in parallel.

     

    http://report.mkpe.com/2011/01/smpte-and-isdcf-make-progress-with-audi o/

     

    http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/Dolby_Su rround_71_Whitepaper.pdf

     

    At film festivals we regular have this inclusion DCP's with additional audio channels.

     

    First theatres even get iSens 23.1 audio systems or Dolby Atmos...

     

    so we should deliver what is produced ;-)

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2012 3:17 PM   in reply to nw42

    If I try to export MXF OP1a "AVC Intra Class 100 1080" I only get 23.976 / 25 / 29.976 fps to choose from...

     

    Understood.  "24p" 'round here usually means 23.976.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2012 5:00 PM   in reply to Jim Simon

    Hi Jim,

     

    Understood.  "24p" 'round here usually means 23.976.

    Not really - you will have a different running time with booth frame rates.

    HDCAM SR tape decks have an option to "speed up" 23.976 on playback to 24.000 before ingest.

     

    The NTSC video world is using this "fake" to get the 3:2 pulldown running.

     

    If you load a 23.976 MXF into a 24p Premiere sequence you have to change it via "interpret footage" from 23.976 to 24.000 by hand  before placing it on the timeline. Like the HDCAM SR deck Premiere then will speedup the video and timestrech the audio accordingly. (Problem is that Premiere likes to forget about the audio timestrech if you reload a project - very dangerous thing! Had it with a Prores file recently :-(

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Oct 14, 2012 9:00 PM   in reply to nw42

    What I meant is that when you read "24p" on these forums, most people understand that to mean 23.976, so I didn't realize you meant actual 24 fps.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 20, 2012 7:56 PM   in reply to nw42

    Dear Adobe Team members!

    Do you plan to fix the issue with broadcast WAV-files?

    We are waiting for that fix for more than two years already! If you are unable to make it with WAV format, than, you can make export to AIFF (or other Non-Windows based format).

     

    16 channel sound is an UNDUSTRY STANDARD and Premiere software still does not fit that requirements!

     

    Please, tell us, if you are working on that and when do you plan to release the new update with bug fixes.

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2013 2:05 PM   in reply to remainz123

    so. much. pain. reading. this. thread. It was blatantly obvious what remainz123 was trying to achieve.... to output a file that contained all 16 tracks of audio. ie. a quicktime file with multiple mono audio tracks like FCP7 can easily do.


     
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    Nov 10, 2013 7:21 PM   in reply to Darius Family

    And you are commenting on a 2 and half year old post for ...???

     

    Do they still make FCP7?

     
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  • Currently Being Moderated
    Nov 10, 2013 9:04 PM   in reply to shooternz

    Oh, and by the way, CC now supports 32 channels.

    32.jpg

     
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    Nov 11, 2013 9:25 AM   in reply to Mark Mapes

    Hi Mark,

     

    the new audio routing in Premiere CC is great and increased channel count helps - but there are still some issues preventing a practical workflow:

     

    1. You can't export a feature lenght 5.1 24bit audio mix to multichannel WAV because there's no RF64 Broadcast Wave support in Premiere (<4GB file results in unexpected error)

     

    2. You can't export all audio tracks of a sequence to mono channel WAV files.

     

    so you can't export your feature lenght audio mix from Premiere...

     

    export to Quicktime audio was buggy long time and after import to Audition it's converted to 32bit float - so you have to resample it again before final export - not the most elegant work around...

     
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