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JJMack 6,017 posts
Jan 9, 2006
Currently Being Moderated

Noel Carboni

Aug 5, 2012 5:58 PM

You seem to be seeing things a little bit more like me about CS6 Quality.

 

I will try to add white space to make the a little easier to read,

 

There seems to be what I call a Window of opportunity bug in the PC version of Photoshop CS6.   I believe the bug is in how Photoshop tasking or treading has been implemented.  If some commands start to execute when this window open the command fails.  

 

The command Close No Save seems to open the window.  Setting Photoshop Preference Interface to Open Documents in Tabs slows down Photoshop to where the window is almost closed but not all the way.

 

You know Murphy Law if it can happen it will happen. 

 

You know I hate to edit in Tabs.  In my pursuit to close the window of opportunity and edit in floating windows  I have tried to set events to automate the process.  In doing so I triggered the bug even when the preference is set to open documents in tabs.

 

I even tried to slow down the action by adding a new first step Edit Preferences Interface and Check "Open Documents In Tabs" the action still failed. 

 

I added a Script into the action after the set preference step to slowed Photoshop down and the action worked.  The script was a one liner "refresh();". 

 

Once I had the action working I converted it to a script adding logic not to try to float documents whet there are no open documents.

 

The action that failed is very simple and easily demonstrates the problem. Edit your Photoshop Preferences Interface tab and un-check Open Documents in Tabs. Open a new document  to start recording a new action on, name it float all. Record

Step One Edit>Preferences>Interface  in the dialog check Open Documents in Tabs and click OK

Stop recording the Action use the actions Palette Fly-out menu  to insert two menu items:

Menu Window>Arrange>Float All In Windows

Menu Window>Arrange>Cascade

The action is complete

 

Next use menu File>Scripts>Script Event Manager... In the event manager dialog:

Check Enable Events to Run Scripts/Actions:

Use the Photoshop Event: pull-down and select everything

Turn on the Action Radio button and use the pull down menus to select action set and action Float all

Click the Add button then the done button.

FloatAllEvent.jpg

Now to show the bug.

open  two new documents the default Photoshop size.

The documents will be in cascaded floating windows.

Use the X to close one of the document.

Note the action fails.  Click continue.  Click the Play button the action works.

 

The Script I'm playing with

 

#target photoshop

//

// FloatAll.jsx

//

cTID = function(s) { return app.charIDToTypeID(s); };

sTID = function(s) { return app.stringIDToTypeID(s); };

function FloatAll() {

          OpenDocInTabs();                                        // Set photoshop preference interface "Open Documents in Tabs"

          refresh();                                                  // Slow down Photoshop

          if (documents.length > 0) {                    // There are open documents

                    FloatAllInWindows();                    // Float All Documents in Floating Windows

                    ArrangeWindowsCascade();          // Cascage Windows

          }

};

 

function OpenDocInTabs(enabled, withDialog) {

          if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

          var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

          var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

          var ref1 = new ActionReference();

          ref1.putProperty(cTID('Prpr'), sTID("interfacePrefs"));

          ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('capp'), cTID('Ordn'), cTID('Trgt'));

          desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

          var desc2 = new ActionDescriptor();

          desc2.putBoolean(cTID('EGst'), true);

          desc2.putBoolean(sTID("openNewDocsAsTabs"), true);

          desc1.putObject(cTID('T   '), sTID("interfacePrefs"), desc2);

          executeAction(cTID('setd'), desc1, dialogMode);

};

 

function FloatAllInWindows(enabled, withDialog) {

          if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

          var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

          var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

          var ref1 = new ActionReference();

          ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('Mn  '), cTID('MnIt'), sTID("floatAllWindows"));

          desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

          executeAction(cTID('slct'), desc1, dialogMode);

};

 

function ArrangeWindowsCascade(enabled, withDialog) {

          if (enabled != undefined && !enabled) return;

          var dialogMode = (withDialog ? DialogModes.ALL : DialogModes.NO);

          var desc1 = new ActionDescriptor();

          var ref1 = new ActionReference();

          ref1.putEnumerated(cTID('Mn  '), cTID('MnIt'), cTID('Cscd'));

          desc1.putReference(cTID('null'), ref1);

          executeAction(cTID('slct'), desc1, dialogMode);

};

 

FloatAll();

 
Replies 1 2 Previous Next
  • Noel Carboni
    23,526 posts
    Dec 23, 2006
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    Aug 5, 2012 7:24 PM   in reply to JJMack

    I'll give the details of this more serious attention in the morning.

     

    I appreciate and respect your preference to use windowed rather than tabbed mode, but that may well be an important difference between the folks who feel it's not too buggy and those like yourself who feel it's unacceptable.

     

    Anecdotally, back a while ago,in the time of Photoshop CS4, I was a dyed-in-the-wool windowed mode user, I wouldn't consider using the then new tabbed view.  But a plug-in I used a lot in actions - Genuine Fractals - stopped working when run in windowed view, and I made a 2 week solid effort to use tabbed view.  Amazingly it grew on me, and I didn't go back.

     

    I'm thinking that more folks at Adobe like to use the tabbed view than windowed.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 5, 2012 10:56 PM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

     

    …I'm thinking that more folks at Adobe should be testing Photoshop in both tabbed and windowed mode.

     

    By all means!  For different reasons than those you have so articulately enumerated, I also want nothing to do with tabbed documents.

     

    Maybe because I'm in the same age bracket as you? 

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 6:05 AM   in reply to JJMack

    I've looked a bit more at this...

     

    I can easily reproduce the problem with my commercial actions, which all create a duplicate document on which to do their work, then close that document and expect immediately to be able to paste a result onto the original image.  The document is created, the actions all work fine, but upon closure of the duplicate, the paste pretty consistently fails upon return to the original.  As with your situation everything works great when in Tabbed view.

     

    A graphic illustration:

     

    Running the action on the owl image, we see (most of) the duplicate document window.

     

    WhileRunning.jpg

     

    The action runs through its steps, the duplicate document window closes (because of the stored Close, saving:no step) , and apparently the original document is made current again, but the Paste operation in the very next step fails.  Clearly something's not ready with the newly current (original) document yet.

     

    PasteFailure.jpg

     

    Notably a number of things in the panels not completely filled in (no History steps, partial display in the Layers panel, no Histogram display).  These could be clues as to what's not ready at the time of the execution of that step.

     

    Has Adobe acknowledged this bug recently?  I vaguely recall some conversation about it in the Beta version.

     

    I don't mean to make light of the severity of this problem, but I would like to point out that I have tens of thousands of actions users and I've not gotten one report of this problem yet.  That says that the lion's share of people must be using Tabbed view on PCs (or are using Macs).

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 6:16 AM   in reply to JJMack

    I can believe that.  The timing is just different, but someting is un-coordinated that used to be coordinated.  It may also have something to do with the specific hardware that's running the application.

     

    In any case, do we have reason to hope that this will be addressed in 13.0.1?

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 6:19 AM   in reply to JJMack

    By the way, Photoshop is object-oriented internally.

     

    This kind of stuff is one of the many reasons I dislike object-oriented implementations.  Sure there are advantages, but unless the design is tight even things like compling software with a different compiler can break object-oriented code.  And people, by their human natures, just don't make tight designs by default.  Not even the superheroes at Adobe. 

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 9:02 AM   in reply to JJMack

    I am looking at this with a modicum of interest because I don't use Tabs and rarely use Actions and don't create any. That's not to say that I have no wants for Actions, but I really don't have a pressing need to get off my duff and create any.

     

    That being said, I am curious about this statement:

     

      Even with "Open Document in Tabs" enabled the event action failed when I closed a document without a save.

     

    I am perplexed as to why you would expect an Action, or any other move made on a file to succeed even though it's closed without saving. Every single time I've done that, I lost my work. And it behaves the same way using the canned Actions: apply, close w/o saving, lose the Action on the image.

     

    Just saying.....

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 9:47 AM   in reply to Hudechrome

    Think of the execution of an action or script as automating the things you yourself might do as a sequence of mouse clicks, keyboard input, etc.

     

    For example, my commercial actions, seen as shown above to fail in Photoshop CS6 with windowed view, all do something like this:

     

    1.  Make a duplicate document.

    2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

    3.  Copy the result.

    4.  Close the duplicate document without saving (this assumes the original document will again become current).

    5.  Paste the result onto the original document.

     

    What does this seeming extra complexity accomplish?  Well, for one thing it does not jam up the user's History with a huge number of steps they didn't do themselves.

     

    And, for whatever reason, step 5 seems to succeed only when Tabbed view is being used exclusively.  Perhaps this is because certain things just happen more quickly. 

     

    Maybe not a lot of people run into this combination (windowed view, running actions), but it is a serious problem Adobe really does need to address.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:11 AM   in reply to JJMack

    Is Photomerge a scripted Action, so far as the app is concerned? I use it frequently, in fact, most of my personal photoshoots have multiple instances of Photomerge expectations. Now I am not doing the routine which involves making a copy of each frame running the merge then trying to apply the result to the originals. But if it is scripted, then would I unknowingly run into problems wioth my current workspace being run with Open Documents as tabs is unchecked as well as enable Floating Doc.....

     

    If so, what might I expect different if I checked both those choices when running Photomerge, if any? Also, I always run it from Bridge.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:15 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

     

    1.  Make a duplicate document.

    2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

    3.  Copy the result.

     

    4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

    5.  Paste.

    6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

    7.  Close without saving.

     

    Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:22 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    I have run some Actions using Batch and I have to say I am underwhelmed by the response. It seems that what I expect is not what I get and to avoid a bunch of extra time figuring out what I did wrong, I'll manually do the work. That's ok if only a few files are involved.

     

    Incidentally, this is another reason I prefer DxO for doing lens and camera corrections. I choose my parameter, including my own Presets, highlight the images in the thumbs strip and tell it to do the job. Takes 8 sec or so/image to do this, hardly enough time to go brew another batch of coffee! With Batch it's: "WTF did I do now!!!"

     

    Yeah, I know. Learning curve and all that. Back in CS3, it seems Batch was simpler.  Perhaps not. I did get it to run, even with a modified Action.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:32 AM   in reply to conroy

    conroy2009 wrote:

     

    Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

     

    1.  Make a duplicate document.

    2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

    3.  Copy the result.

     

    4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

    5.  Paste.

    6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

    7.  Close without saving.

     

    Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

     

    Interesting.

     

    That made things work with Windowed view, but completely blew up in Tabbed view:  Depending on which tab I choose before running the action, it will paste the result over an entirely different document that happened to be open.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 10:54 AM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:

    There are several other resaons you may not have gotten any bug reports
    ...
    your users simplely don't report bugs because your support is as bad as Adobe support.   However I find the later reason hard to beleive. ::)

     

    LOL, you really did make me laugh out loud with that.  Thank you. 

     

    They report stuff to me and ask me questions all the time, just not this issue.  Usually it's about basic action operation ("click the name once to highlight, then press the > Play button").  I have had a couple of folks claim an older version didn't work in Ps CS6, and request the latest release (which I of course supplied), then have them tell me everything's AOK - but I could never nail down anything wrong.  My older actions work fine in Ps CS6 (within the limitations listed in this thread).  Usually I chalk those cases up to a user accidentally unchecking the "Enable" box or clicking the "Dialog" box while getting set up or getting used to the new version of Photoshop.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:07 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    conroy2009 wrote:

     

    Noel, try this amendment to your steps:

     

    1.  Make a duplicate document.

    2.  Do all the fancy stuff on the duplicate document.

    3.  Copy the result.

     

    4.  Select previous document, i.e. the original doc, by pressing Ctrl+Tab.

    5.  Paste.

    6.  Select next document, i.e. the duplicate doc, by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Tab.

    7.  Close without saving.

     

    Now the original document with the recently pasted stuff is current.

     

    Interesting.

     

    That made things work with Windowed view, but completely blew up in Tabbed view:  Depending on which tab I choose before running the action, it will paste the result over an entirely different document that happened to be open.

     

    -Noel

     

    Noel, see if my steps are reliable in both windowed and tabbed view when the Action is recorded with only one doc open in Ps, and played back with only one doc open in Ps.

     

    I'm finding an Action containing "Select previous document" and/or "Select next document" is only reliable when there is only one document open when the Action is recorded and when the Action is played back.

     

    Recording Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document -n", and Shift+Ctrl+Tab can produce a step named "Select document +n" where n is an integer. That's bloody useless! Why the heck was the software designed to do that?

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:06 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    To Tab or not to Tab. That is the question....

     

    So do we call people who use tabs, tabbys?

     

    Message was edited by: Hudechrome

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:09 AM   in reply to conroy

    Noel, see the edit in my last post. It concerns having a single doc open when recording and playing that Action.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:16 AM   in reply to conroy

    conroy2009 wrote:

     

    Why the heck was the software designed to do that?

     

    Consider this: It's version 13.0.

     

    That's 12 major version releases after version 1.0 containing partial re-designs, rushed out the door to meet a deadline, with a changing cast of engineers working on each release, in multiple different countries and speaking multiple different languages. Tabbed view was added as an afterthought in version 11.0.

     

    The question really should be: How the heck is it working at all?

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:27 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Maybe NASA or Cal Tech should take over. 8 months after initiing an Action, the Action competed in 7 minutes while NASA was blind!

     

    Cal Tech is just down the road from Adobe.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:32 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Tabbed view was added as an afterthought in version 11.0.

     

    Things breaking in tabbed view isn't what I meant by my "Why the heck?" question. The question was concerned with the preceding statements in its containing paragraph. I'll try to express my point differently...

     

    The recorded result of Ctrl+Tab and Shift+Ctrl+Tab varies depending on the count and ordering of open docs when an Action is recorded. Reliable future playback of an Action which involves stepping back and forward through documents is made dependant on the existence of that same count and ordering of open documents. That's a recipe for disaster and may be wrecking some of JJ's Actions.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:36 AM   in reply to conroy

    I understood that, and my response still applies.

     

    Clearly Adobe didn't pay that much attention to the Actions engine this time around (and several previous times).  It's possible that in some past environment the current design made sense.  Or maybe not.  Did the design requirement get transmitted to the programmer with a translation error?

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 11:47 AM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    I understood that, and my response still applies.

     

    Clearly Adobe didn't pay that much attention to the Actions engine this time around (and several previous times).  It's possible that in some past environment the current design made sense.  Or maybe not.  Did the design requirement get transmitted to the programmer with a translation error?

     

    -Noel

     

    That could be the answer.

     

    Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 12:10 PM   in reply to JJMack

    Thanks, JJ, but my question wasn't "what's happening?". It was "why was the software designed to do something unreliable?". As Noel pointed out, the software may be the way it is, not by design, but because of a translation error somewhere between design and implementation.

     

    Although if you are correct (and I have no reason to doubt you) that the documentation states that there is unreliability, my question becomes "why does Adobe not provide something reliable when they are aware of the unreliability?".

     

    That last one is a rhetorical question, by the way. I'm well aware that resources are limited and we can't have everything.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 12:28 PM   in reply to conroy

    conroy2009 wrote:

    Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

     

    Assuming you mean to record the Control-Tab and Control-Shift-Tab steps with exactly TWO documents open, that's actually what I had done the first time around.  The recorded steps were Select previous document and Select next document.

     

    This is what would not play back properly in Tabbed view.

     

    -Noel

     
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    Aug 6, 2012 12:52 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    Noel Carboni wrote:

     

    conroy2009 wrote:

    Anyway, what did you find when recording my suggested Action with only one doc initially open in Ps and then playing back with only one doc initially open? Was the Action reliable in both windowed and tabbed views? I found it reliable on OS X 10.6.8.

     

    Assuming you mean to record the Control-Tab and Control-Shift-Tab steps with exactly TWO documents open, that's actually what I had done the first time around.  The recorded steps were Select previous document and Select next document.

     

    This is what would not play back properly in Tabbed view.

     

    -Noel

     

    That's unfortunate.

     

    So in summary we have a difference:

     

    On my Mac, assuming only one doc is initially open when recording and one when playing, both your Action and my Action are reliable in both tabbed and windowed views.

     

    On your PC, assuming only one doc is initially open when recording and one when playing, only your Action is reliable in tabbed view, and only my Action is reliable in windowed view.

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 1:31 PM   in reply to conroy

    Yeah, it looks like this may be a PC-only bug.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 1:39 PM   in reply to JJMack

    That numerical ordering is probably why Conroy's flavor of action didn't work - it assumed "Previous Document" was the lower numbered document rather than the one that had "previously" been current.

     

    Someone probably simplified the window management code and figured they could eliminate some complexity by just cycling through them in numeric order, never stopping to consider what this would do to actions that expect windows to be managed (and un-managed) a certain way. 

     

    All this is why my actions open a duplicate document, then expect on closure to return to the one that was current before opening it - which always works, ordering-wise, but unfortunately now gets the errors that are the subject of this thread.  A workaround will probably be to do some other step in the interim.  I'm not sure experimenting with that right now is high on my list of things to do, though it will escalate should 13.0.1 not fix this bug.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 1:41 PM   in reply to JJMack

    JJMack wrote:


    Did you also test with CS5???

     

    Not just now, but I will try it just to be sure of when it was introduced.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 1:48 PM   in reply to Noel Carboni

    As expected, my commercial actions work in both Tabbed and Windowed modes of Photoshop CS5.

     

    Conroy's flavor of action (select previous/next sequence) fails in Photoshop CS5 as well - depending on which document of two open documents you are working on, it will write the results back to the wrong document.  "Previous" does not mean "most recently viewed window" even in Photoshop CS5.

     

    -Noel

     
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  • Noel Carboni
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    Aug 6, 2012 2:44 PM   in reply to JJMack

    If you mean "chorus", no, I don't think I'm singing too much louder than I was.  I recognized these issues before this discussion, based on your prior input, but from a practical perspective they're just not bothering me.

     

    My impression of Photoshop CS6, based on my own personal usage, is about the same as it was - no worse than CS5.  I guess I'm lucky I've chosen the modes and settings that apparently the developers and testers at Adobe use.  I'm thinking a lot of people must use these settings (e.g., Tabbed mode is the default, and I imagine most people just leave it set that way).

     

    I'm looking forward to 13.0.1, but honestly 13.0.0 gets my daily work done without hassle.  It's more stable than Photoshop CS5 was for me (it used to crash a lot on exit; the new one doesn't).  And the new Camera Raw features facilitate my making better images from my photos than I was getting before.  I'm really not finding a lot not to like.

     

    Don't get me wrong; I believe Adobe's development processes are somewhat broken, and I hate "imperfection" passed off as "commercially viable quality".

     

    -Noel

     
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